BA pilots 'prepared to strike'?

[Skylion]

Bonuses of 150-200%? Which managers exactly are eligible? ( and what is your definition of manager"?)

[Hand Solo]

The upper limit is actually 250%. I believe all the board members are in line for that sort of bonus. I would guess most of the senior management grade are expecting similar and there are around 1200 of them (and thats after WWs cull of 600 SMs!).

[overstress]

Skylion. HS's info matches what I'd heard about mgt bonuses.

[Skylion]

I would doubt if more than a handful would be in line for anything like that as it's way beyond any scheme the bulk of them would ever have seen before. I would guess that it if it were the right figure it would apply to Executive Directors and possibly the next tier down, but highly unlikely below that as the cost would negate a large part of the savings they are making by current cuts.

[Finger Bob]

Heavy,

There is strength in unity. Division of the workforce is an proven way of reducing overall terms and conditions. Division is what we have in BA.

The BARP scheme is a disgrace and we, the current pilots, let it happen. The Engineers in British Gas went on strike to protect the final salary scheme for new workers. They had far more foresight than us.

If you speak to the new joiners you may find out that many did not know how bad the pension was before joining. Indeed, they were told two things. Firstly, BA said it would be industry leading - it is not. Secondly, they believed it was still under negotiation with BALPA.

By not demanding a good pension for new pilots you have promoted the demise of the industry you help build. Shameful.

[the heavy heavy]

finger bob,

i'm guessing that the british gas engineers didn't have to concern themselves with having huge numbers of gas fitters hoping that any strike at bg would cause mass sackings so they could get jobs!

barps is a disgrace, not sure how many times i've agreed with that on this forum. striking to prevent its introduction would have been like turkeys voting for xmas.

it appears to me, and the trainers and recruiters i talk with, that BA management is in a head first race to see just how little of a package they can give a pilot and just how weak a DEP they can get the trainers to accept. given that we are on a forum that is full of people who routinely state how they will work for free and pay for their own type ratings i felt that any IA would just play into ba's and theese wannabees hands.

i made a decision based on practicality and realism. shameful i won't accept. wrong , only time will tell.

however the day BALPA starts growing some balls and acts as a combined unit, ie i won't steal your job at BA whilst you strike for my pension, then i will be on that picket line. the day that non-ba pilots stop praying for our downfall and portraying us as a bunch of spoilt prima donna's i'll be prepared to fight for an improvement in their t&c's.

i'll be on the picket line for naps. i'll support any BALPA move to get barps improved. you want to blame someone for barps, blame management, blame balpa for a fudged and quite frankly stupid position and blame all the desperate wannabees who think it's ok to take a job on any t&c and then wonder why things are getting worse.

ps please b4 anybody says i am being arrogant about the standard of deps, yes we are getting a lot of great guys and girls joining us but anybody who says we r not taking people that wouldn't have got to part 2 5 years ago is in denial. how many letters re-inviting interviews did we send out! i'm sure that was because we got enough applicants at a good enough standard! could it be that the guys who have options go to vs and elsewhere now! those are the guys and girls that deserve a pat on the back, know what your worth and don't accept less

[overstress]

Hear hear re the 'desperate wannabes'. I'm one of the cheapest 747 pilots in the world - 'cos I work for BA - and I'm knackered.

All you wannabes - I bet you'd pay to get off your 3rd 2-man all-nighter in 10 days.

Paying for your own type rating -

[banana head]

the heavy heavy:

and just how weak a DEP they can get the trainers to accept

Well my friend - our trainers accepted you at some point, be it as a DEP or CEP.
.... but I see you're point, really I do - Why should such an accomplished and talented individual as yourself concern his/her self with the terms new riff raff are joining on? Sure most of them are foreign anyway and don't even speak the Queen's English.

Thankfully YOU are a minority in BA. Otherwise I dread to think of how bad it would be to work here.....

Don't forget, the pensions issue is a very devisive one. You are playing into management's hands just as much as any BARPer who dosen't wish to support you. Maybe if you were a little more inclusive, and maybe if BALPA had any balls we wouldn't be in this fine mess in the first place.....

[Hand Solo]

I note that amongst the demands for British Gas style strike action nobody has pointed out that the gas fitters didn't actually achieve a final salary scheme for new entrants.

[marlowe]

Ok guys this thread started on 12 January its now 17th May and the thread is 34 pages long when exactly are you going on strike? My holidays are coming up soon so could you please make your minds up! or is it all just talk? Ok this makes it 35 pages long!!

[Human Factor]

Negotiations are ongoing. If we ballot, you'll get plenty of notice.

[wiggy]

marlowe

When? Nobody knows. The Unions (all of those involved, not just BALPA) rejected the Company's offer at a meeting on 26th April. The Company have gone away to reconsider and perhaps come up with a more sensible/acceptable set of proposals. Given that the defict is due to reassessed in mid June it's unlikely BA will say much before then.
If the proposals are still unacceptable then there would then be a whole set of procedural and legal steps to go through before anyone mans the picket line ( formal "failure to agree", the ballot with it's timetable, then the legal cooling off period), my guess is there could be no action for August at the earliest.
I hope it doesn't get that bad but make no mistake.. it's not "just talk", IMHO this strike will happen unless the Company makes a radical change to it's proposals.

[the heavy heavy]

Originally Posted by banana head

the heavy heavy:


Thankfully YOU are a minority in BA. Otherwise I dread to think of how bad it would be to work here.....

.....

having had a quick look at your post history, i see you fit my description of who is benefiting from the new deal perfectly. guess if we had a better deal you'd still have to be flying for your '****ty irish airline', your words not mine! i've got a few mates who have joined on the new deal. we as a company have been very lucky to get them. we will also be very lucky to keep them as they are meerly waiting for a better deal elsewhere. they knew the deal they signed up for and decided that since they already had a pension from betty that BA would be a good place to start in civvy street.

as to your belief i'm in the minority, i have a great time at work and seem to be surrounded by like-minded people most of the time. if you want to believe that am just an arrogant **** then i really don't care. lets just say that i'm pretty sure i'm in the mainstream.

regardless of our dislike of each others opinions i'll be on the picket line to protect the RIGHTS I SIGNED UP FOR and i'll support any union move to improve the RIGHTS YOU SIGNED UP FOR.

you want to believe that standards are soaring upwards your either management or an idiot.

see you in flyers.

[banana head]

the heavy heavy:

What a lovely retort!

having had a quick look at your post history, i see you fit my description of who is benefiting from the new deal perfectly

Firstly read the disclaimer at the very bottom of this page - don't believe everything you read here on PPRuNe.

Secondly, and probably more importantly, wake up! Pilots are joining BA, and will continue to join BA as long as they perceive the package on offer to be any way better than that offered by others. That is the simply reality of a free open market. Equally Pilots will leave and go elsewhere if they perceive a better deal exists there. If you have difficulties understanding market forces, then you might be better off still coconed in the service of HM.

The current situation whereby some BARP members have no wish to support you or the fight against changes to NAPs is not particularly surprising, considering you/ the then BALPA membership essentially agreed to BARP under the very misguided illusion that NAPS would be kept safe if you did so.

But more importantly than all of the above, and the bit I find arrogant and deluded on your part is your suggestion that BA are actively seeking out 'weak pilots'

and just how weak a DEP they can get the trainers to accept

Your words - not mine.
BA hire, maintain and promote the very same standards with new DEP's as with current serving pilots. To suggest anything else is only stroking your own ego.
You may consider your background and experience in HM service to be better than mine (or anybody else’s for that matter), and having that or any other opinion is your privilege - but you should take the time to look around and see the wealth of skill and experience many of our DEPs have.

you want to believe that standards are soaring upwards your either management or an idiot

Well my friend I'm not management, nor do I have any aspiration to ever be within BA - I've tried that previously and found it to be a thankless time hungry animal - nor do I believe standards are 'soaring upwards', but they are certainly not spiralling downwards like you suggest!

I for one am 100% behind the fight to maintain NAPs, and it may surprise you to hear that I'll be there right beside you on any picket line - while I may never benefit from the spoils of war so to speak, I do believe management need to see unity amongst us as a group, otherwise we might as well give up our terms completely.

Incidentally I'm one of the small minority who proudly wear my BEFairBA lanyard at work,(although with such a small minority wearing them I've stopped of late) do you??

[Hand Solo]

you/ the then BALPA membership essentially agreed to BARP under the very misguided illusion that NAPS would be kept safe if you did so.

That may be your take on it BH, but nobody elses. Nobody believed BARPs was some sort of magic wand that would keep NAPS safe. It was a case of nobody believing that a fight to keep NAPS open was a fight we could win. The fact that nobody in any other major company seems to have managed to keep an FSS open to new employees would tend to support that view.

[Joe le Taxi]

It isn't really the FSS itself that is unaffordable by companies, and there is nothing that makes FSSs necessarily significantly more expensive than money purchase. Its only fundamental difference from defined contribution is that the employee is insulated from market fluctuations, whereas a DC pension worker must live with the fact that his pot of money may out perform or underperform the cost of living when the time comes to cash it in.

However, this switching from DB to DC is just nearly always just a cover for the company to reduce contributions by several magnitudes. If, for example it costs BA 25% of your salary to maintain the FSS pension; a contribution of 25% to a DC scheme would nominally be worth the same. Instead it is slashed to 8% or something, and new guys are palmed off with the bluster that final salary schemes are an extinct concept - Not so; All that has been delivered is a 17% pay cut.

(Edited for fantom's benefit).

[fantom]

Originally Posted by Joe le Taxi

The final salary pension is no particularly special beast which no company cannot afford to feed.

Brilliant. Three negatives in one sentence.

Is this a record?

[the heavy heavy]

ban head,

yes i do.

had i know i'd be fighting for my pension and that the company would try and steal it from me, then staying in the 'cocoon' that was the balkans and the desert might have been a better option! at least i knew who was out to f*ck with me!

i'm not stroking anything. i'm only in agreement with the concerns that some senior trainers and a couple of recruiters have expressed to me in the last 12 months. if you want to take that as a personnel attack on your ability then fine, it's not. it only takes 1 mistake to end it for us all. i'm sure you know how close we've been! if your on the 400 you'll know how concerend they are. not saying that the new deps are the problem, that would be nonsense. what i am saying is that those who are in power and are willing to chat down route make no bones about the challenge we face to recruit the standards we need with the deal on the table given the time to command. i've been told that some compromises have been made to get the numbers required. fact. i hope it doesn't bite us.

this thread was about BA pilots being ready to strike. at every chance barps pilots have been on here bleating about how you reap what you sow. whatever the wrongs of barp if 90% of ba's pilots to stike for the pensions they SIGNED UP FOR it will have NOTHING to do with the deal that BARP joiners knew they were signing up for. stop mergeing the 2.

i'll say it again, i'll back the union in any action over barps. your suppport over naps is welcome but not expected.

[fantom]

I rest my case.

[Carnage Matey!]

It is traditional to make a case before you rest it. We're still waiting fantom.