BA pilots 'prepared to strike'?
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Willie learnt/suffered at the hands of the master Molly, but doesnt have the b
lls to do it as well.
And LIFO/Seniority is not yet illegal in respect of redundancies, nor has the law yet been through the hands of judges. And if the parameters for redundancy are agreed with trade union, provide considerable strength to their use.
lls to do it as well.And LIFO/Seniority is not yet illegal in respect of redundancies, nor has the law yet been through the hands of judges. And if the parameters for redundancy are agreed with trade union, provide considerable strength to their use.
I really don't want to get involved in BA politics but why does anyone think that the basic seniority policy of Last In/First Out would not hold up in a court of law?
In companies that have such a system, every single pilot signs a contract to the extent that they acknowledge such a system.
How else could you organise redundancies etc etc?
This is not a business like the dog-eat-dog commodity traders in the city who make an obscene amount of money on somebody else's back or else end up in jail in Singapore.
We are professional pilots who spend our lives transporting people and freight around the world in the nearest thing that is possible to total safety.
It is important to all of us that we know where we stand in the order of things. If things start to go wrong then your "number" is very, very important.
Mind you, my seniority number meant nothing when Laker went down the pan but I did get to be No.1 on a subsequent seniority list before I retired. Being No.1 on the list meant nothing either for by the time they got down to me there was nothing left!
In companies that have such a system, every single pilot signs a contract to the extent that they acknowledge such a system.
How else could you organise redundancies etc etc?
This is not a business like the dog-eat-dog commodity traders in the city who make an obscene amount of money on somebody else's back or else end up in jail in Singapore.
We are professional pilots who spend our lives transporting people and freight around the world in the nearest thing that is possible to total safety.
It is important to all of us that we know where we stand in the order of things. If things start to go wrong then your "number" is very, very important.
Mind you, my seniority number meant nothing when Laker went down the pan but I did get to be No.1 on a subsequent seniority list before I retired. Being No.1 on the list meant nothing either for by the time they got down to me there was nothing left!
Last edited by JW411; 3rd Aug 2006 at 16:43.
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Despite Faire d'Income's assertion that it is self-evident, I think it remains to be proven whether seniority brings many benefits to airline pilots, especially in respect of promotion. Overall I think it is a recipe for dissatisfaction, as those who are unhappy with their employer feel unable to leave. However I think that for compulsory redundancy there is a case for rewarding loyalty (ie length of service), and possibly for other relatively trivial reasons, eg leave, trip allocation etc. Sorry to use so much "bandwidth" as he trendily calls it, but those near the bottom of the pile deserve an explanation of the ways in which the demigods near the top are better operators. Go on: convince me!
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They're not better operators, but you answered your own question....
If you want a promotion then the most loyal get first bite at the cherry, subject to meeting the necessary standards.
Anyway, didn't LIFO get tested at MyTravel not so long ago?
there is a case for rewarding loyalty (ie length of service)
Anyway, didn't LIFO get tested at MyTravel not so long ago?
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I'm not in the business of trying to convince. You are where you are and we are where we are. You are all welcome to join us, we are recruiting.
Sometimes seniority is in the pilots' interest, sometimes it is not. I feel it is a double edged sword most of the time.
When there is a glut of pilots (as there has been for roughly the past 13/14 years in the UK) seniority benefits the companies as it allows them to hammer down on the terms and conditions with all the pilots locked into their jobs to protect their seniority. On the other hand, if there is a glut of pilots where are the better jobs going to be found anyway? So in this case seniority also benefits the pilots as it provides them with an annual increment which at least has them better off each year by rewarding their experience when times may otherwise be hard for them.
When there is a shortage of pilots (as soon there will be, in mega proportions, I sincerely hope) seniority again benefits the companies as it retains a stable workforce who are unable to easily accept what may be better pickings elsewhere as they are locked into their jobs to protect their seniority. On the other hand, as the transfer of labour is far from easy, the shortage bites harder quicker, especially at the bottom end of the food chain and the terms and conditions are forced up relatively quickly as the one thing airline managers cannot afford to do for long is cancel flights because there are insufficient pilots. This improvement in the terms and conditions starts at the bottom and takes a very long time to filter through to the top of the food chain and the net effect, even in a time of shortage is that there is a levelling or redistribution in the spread of terms and conditions between the best jobs and the worst jobs.
I am sure that there will be issues that I haven't thought of, but overall, I would have to suggest that seniority benefits the comanies much more than the pilots.
A slight thread drift from Pensions here so it must be remembered that whatever were to happen to seniority, many will feel 'chained' to BA because of the legacy FSS pension scheme which is now almost completely unavailable anywhere else as all the schemes are closed to new entrants.
Sometimes seniority is in the pilots' interest, sometimes it is not. I feel it is a double edged sword most of the time.
When there is a glut of pilots (as there has been for roughly the past 13/14 years in the UK) seniority benefits the companies as it allows them to hammer down on the terms and conditions with all the pilots locked into their jobs to protect their seniority. On the other hand, if there is a glut of pilots where are the better jobs going to be found anyway? So in this case seniority also benefits the pilots as it provides them with an annual increment which at least has them better off each year by rewarding their experience when times may otherwise be hard for them.
When there is a shortage of pilots (as soon there will be, in mega proportions, I sincerely hope) seniority again benefits the companies as it retains a stable workforce who are unable to easily accept what may be better pickings elsewhere as they are locked into their jobs to protect their seniority. On the other hand, as the transfer of labour is far from easy, the shortage bites harder quicker, especially at the bottom end of the food chain and the terms and conditions are forced up relatively quickly as the one thing airline managers cannot afford to do for long is cancel flights because there are insufficient pilots. This improvement in the terms and conditions starts at the bottom and takes a very long time to filter through to the top of the food chain and the net effect, even in a time of shortage is that there is a levelling or redistribution in the spread of terms and conditions between the best jobs and the worst jobs.
I am sure that there will be issues that I haven't thought of, but overall, I would have to suggest that seniority benefits the comanies much more than the pilots.
A slight thread drift from Pensions here so it must be remembered that whatever were to happen to seniority, many will feel 'chained' to BA because of the legacy FSS pension scheme which is now almost completely unavailable anywhere else as all the schemes are closed to new entrants.
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Originally Posted by Faire d'income
Lucifer reading some of your posts you are quick to criticise wannabees who judge our careers or training centres when they obviously have no experience of either. Yet you are quite happy to attack the concept of a seniority list while either obviously not being part of one ( or being at the bottom ).
I wont waste bandwidth explaining why a seniority system is vital to our industry for reasons of safety, promotion, and income protection. Look it up, instead of looking up at it and whinging in ignorance!
Back to the thread. BA pilots had better be more than willing to strike as Mr. Walsh operates a philosophy that means 'if the staff are not ballotting for action then I'm not pushing them hard enough'.
I wont waste bandwidth explaining why a seniority system is vital to our industry for reasons of safety, promotion, and income protection. Look it up, instead of looking up at it and whinging in ignorance!
Back to the thread. BA pilots had better be more than willing to strike as Mr. Walsh operates a philosophy that means 'if the staff are not ballotting for action then I'm not pushing them hard enough'.
I won't duplicate what Nearly Nigel has written as it is pretty comprehensive and I agree with most of it.
Needless to say, if I disagree with you, it doesn't mean I am ignorant, a whinger, bitter, or indeed a manager. I choose to remain entirely anonymous, so feel free to disagree with my views, but don't write me off as ignorant if I disagree - unless your aim is to run an authoritarian state in which case the Russians will welcome you. It simply implies to me that you cannot construct a decent argument on the opposing side.
Fact remains that BA pilots will never strike as three pension schemes include (a) APS whom are very well off, and (b) BAPS who are not going to look out for NAPS, since those same NAPS crew failed to take action to prevent erosion of the terms to those dire ones at BAPS.
However I think that for compulsory redundancy there is a case for rewarding loyalty (ie length of service)
Last edited by Lucifer; 3rd Aug 2006 at 22:11.
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Fact remains that BA pilots will never strike as three pension schemes include (a) APS whom are very well off, and (b) BAPS who are not going to look out for NAPS, since those same NAPS crew failed to take action to prevent erosion of the terms to those dire ones at BAPS.
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ba pilots prepared to strike Has
Has any body thought about the consequences of sharing a work load with someone who has not been on strike, the ramifications are enormouse & do not bear thinking about as regards SAFETY, very few strikes are a 100%.
This of course is presuming there is a that there is one ,I do not think there will be, Jaw Jaw not War War.
This of course is presuming there is a that there is one ,I do not think there will be, Jaw Jaw not War War.
Autorise a L'atterrissage
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Why would they/you strike?
They/you earn a fantastic salary, doing something others only dream of.
By comparison with the cut-throat commercial world, their/your job is straighforward, if occasionaly demanding. It the work they/you have been trained for, and sought the priviledge to execute.
Of course they/you do have to make sacrifices to get where they/you are. Just like in the real world.
The pax they/you carry have duly paid their/your employer the price asked for safe, timely travel from A to B.
Can anyone else remember 'To fly to serve'?
JFDI ?
They/you earn a fantastic salary, doing something others only dream of.
By comparison with the cut-throat commercial world, their/your job is straighforward, if occasionaly demanding. It the work they/you have been trained for, and sought the priviledge to execute.
Of course they/you do have to make sacrifices to get where they/you are. Just like in the real world.
The pax they/you carry have duly paid their/your employer the price asked for safe, timely travel from A to B.
Can anyone else remember 'To fly to serve'?
JFDI ?
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Just in case anyone is in any doubt - of the last 5 crews I have flown with I have done a little scientific survey (!) and of 10 people, 6 were more radical than me (and I WILL strike given the present options) 3 were similarly radical and only 1 was "anti" strike.
Be aware. I will not stand for 40% of my pension to disappear. I will enjoy answering the phone to the management bullys and advising them to tell their story walking. I know if we stick together we will win. I know I would rather work in the middle east than turn up for work for this lot after they shaft my contractual pension.
Ignore the diversions of LIFO etc etc. This matters and we cannot lose if we stick together.
Oh, and Leclairage. 'Your job is straightforward.' It is better to keep quiet and people to assume your stupidity than be noisy and confirm it. - "Occupation - Specialist Lighting Designer". Nice.
Be aware. I will not stand for 40% of my pension to disappear. I will enjoy answering the phone to the management bullys and advising them to tell their story walking. I know if we stick together we will win. I know I would rather work in the middle east than turn up for work for this lot after they shaft my contractual pension.
Ignore the diversions of LIFO etc etc. This matters and we cannot lose if we stick together.
Oh, and Leclairage. 'Your job is straightforward.' It is better to keep quiet and people to assume your stupidity than be noisy and confirm it. - "Occupation - Specialist Lighting Designer". Nice.
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Why would they/you strike?
They/you earn a fantastic salary, doing something others only dream of.
By comparison with the cut-throat commercial world, their/your job is straighforward, if occasionaly demanding. It the work they/you have been trained for, and sought the priviledge to execute.
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This is aimed mostly at Leclairage:
I don't think you'll find many businesses more cut-throat than the airlines.
My salary is not bad but I could earn significantly more in the City. The reason I don't, I like the lifestyle. However, part of my salary (the deferred part) is made up of the pension which BA promised me and my colleagues when we joined.
BA are the most profitable airline in the world and they can afford to pay it, BALPA can prove they can afford to pay it and they damn well will pay it or they'll face the consequences, which will more than likely cost their shareholders far more than leaving well alone. Ask yourself how would you like it if some short-termist manager (I use the word advisedly) with no morals whatsoever tried to enhance his bonus by shafting you for half a million quid?
I quite liked this one:
... and my employer duly pays me the price asked for safe, timely travel from A to B. However, if my employer thinks it can reduce the price by 40%, no-one will be travelling anywhere.
Finally, as far as my job being straightforward, if you think it even compares in the slightest to holding a PPL and IMC, you are deluded. If you think it's that easy, get your ATPL and put your money where your mouth is. Until then, as you clearly have no idea, I suggest you wind your neck in.
I don't think you'll find many businesses more cut-throat than the airlines.
My salary is not bad but I could earn significantly more in the City. The reason I don't, I like the lifestyle. However, part of my salary (the deferred part) is made up of the pension which BA promised me and my colleagues when we joined.
BA are the most profitable airline in the world and they can afford to pay it, BALPA can prove they can afford to pay it and they damn well will pay it or they'll face the consequences, which will more than likely cost their shareholders far more than leaving well alone. Ask yourself how would you like it if some short-termist manager (I use the word advisedly) with no morals whatsoever tried to enhance his bonus by shafting you for half a million quid?
I quite liked this one:
The pax they/you carry have duly paid their/your employer the price asked for safe, timely travel from A to B.
Finally, as far as my job being straightforward, if you think it even compares in the slightest to holding a PPL and IMC, you are deluded. If you think it's that easy, get your ATPL and put your money where your mouth is. Until then, as you clearly have no idea, I suggest you wind your neck in.
Last edited by Human Factor; 3rd Aug 2006 at 23:49.
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The only way there will not be a strike is if BA back down and cough up the cash into the fund.
You'll see...
It's important for BA outsiders to realise what Human Factor (above) means by this. Our managers' bonuses are predicated on improving margins - ie controlling their budgets. BA are almost unique in this.
So the more they shaft us, the bigger the bonus they get.
You'll see...
enhance his bonus by shafting you for half a million quid?
So the more they shaft us, the bigger the bonus they get.
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Originally Posted by overstress
So the more they shaft us, the bigger the bonus they get.
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qwerrty
Don't expect the action to kick off in the next month while (a) the company are still awaiting the pensions final report ,(b) the trustees are awaiting their separate report commissioned into the companys ability to pay, (c) the trustees and the company meet after (a) and (b) above to refine the initial company proposals, (d) and until the company/trustees have put their agreed position to the employees.
Then anticipate (a) a series of special union meetings to garner support for the battle, (b) a legal balloting process for IA taking 2-3 weeks, (c) the required notification to the company (2-3 weeks?) of any intended action.
Add all of that up and draw your own conclusions, some time yet imho.
Don't expect the action to kick off in the next month while (a) the company are still awaiting the pensions final report ,(b) the trustees are awaiting their separate report commissioned into the companys ability to pay, (c) the trustees and the company meet after (a) and (b) above to refine the initial company proposals, (d) and until the company/trustees have put their agreed position to the employees.
Then anticipate (a) a series of special union meetings to garner support for the battle, (b) a legal balloting process for IA taking 2-3 weeks, (c) the required notification to the company (2-3 weeks?) of any intended action.
Add all of that up and draw your own conclusions, some time yet imho.
I call you back
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Nearly Nigel's explaination of the pros and cons of a seniority list seems to refer to one particular list, BA. He concludes by stating that it benefits the company more than the pilot. That may or may not be so, but it is not the point. There are considerable beneifits for the pilots.
Seniority lists protect the pilots from the company in many ways. For example promotion. If your face doesn't fit with whatever management are in situ, you will be passed over regardless of service. Seniority protects you against that. If you are paid by route/type etc. the same applies. When your turn comes you get your choice, they cannot pass over you for some impatient brown noser.
Finally safety. It may be difficult for the most talented 1500 hours pilots ( of which an endless stream appear here ) to understand but a dunce with 20,000 hours has certain advantages over them. Wait a few years and you will learn why. Change seats and you will rapidly learn why. Why is it 30 year Beckham could tell more talented Rooney a thing or two about retaliation in a World Cup?
Nearly Nigel concludes that Seniority benefits the company because:
A) in a glut they can change your t&cs.
NN in a shortage with no seniority they could just fire the senior guys to cut costs. No doubt Lucifer would like this until he reaches the top quicker than expected only to be fired midway through what he thought was a career.
B) in a shortage they retain their workforce and any improvement is a trickle up philosophy that takes too long.
NN with respect I think you are merging Seniority and Unions into one area. Seniority is fine and should be completely transparent. It's like a fixed rate mortgage, you know exactly what you will get in the future. If your bank decides unilaterally to change your rate for the worse and you cant get a solicitor or omdubsman to protect you, dont blame fixed rates.
The different unions throughout the industry have varying success rates at protecting our t&cs. This is not the fault of Seniority but rather the people on the list and obviously the unions involved.
For example, excuse my ignorance of BAs situation, but if you have three separate pensions then the unions have messed up. The 3 groups will be defined by seniority but the situation must have arisen due to a poor defense of t&cs by the pilots/unions.
Equally if different groups do not see the benefit of a united position defending all members of the seniority list at all times then you might as well tear up the list. Walsh will merely attack each group one at a time and in the absence of a united front they will all lose.
Seniority lists protect the pilots from the company in many ways. For example promotion. If your face doesn't fit with whatever management are in situ, you will be passed over regardless of service. Seniority protects you against that. If you are paid by route/type etc. the same applies. When your turn comes you get your choice, they cannot pass over you for some impatient brown noser.
Finally safety. It may be difficult for the most talented 1500 hours pilots ( of which an endless stream appear here ) to understand but a dunce with 20,000 hours has certain advantages over them. Wait a few years and you will learn why. Change seats and you will rapidly learn why. Why is it 30 year Beckham could tell more talented Rooney a thing or two about retaliation in a World Cup?
Nearly Nigel concludes that Seniority benefits the company because:
A) in a glut they can change your t&cs.
NN in a shortage with no seniority they could just fire the senior guys to cut costs. No doubt Lucifer would like this until he reaches the top quicker than expected only to be fired midway through what he thought was a career.
B) in a shortage they retain their workforce and any improvement is a trickle up philosophy that takes too long.
NN with respect I think you are merging Seniority and Unions into one area. Seniority is fine and should be completely transparent. It's like a fixed rate mortgage, you know exactly what you will get in the future. If your bank decides unilaterally to change your rate for the worse and you cant get a solicitor or omdubsman to protect you, dont blame fixed rates.
The different unions throughout the industry have varying success rates at protecting our t&cs. This is not the fault of Seniority but rather the people on the list and obviously the unions involved.
For example, excuse my ignorance of BAs situation, but if you have three separate pensions then the unions have messed up. The 3 groups will be defined by seniority but the situation must have arisen due to a poor defense of t&cs by the pilots/unions.
Equally if different groups do not see the benefit of a united position defending all members of the seniority list at all times then you might as well tear up the list. Walsh will merely attack each group one at a time and in the absence of a united front they will all lose.
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LONDON (AFX) - British Airways PLC said operating profits rose 19.9% to £211m in the first quarter and said it carried 4.3% more passengers in the period.
BA said pretax profit in the three months to June 30 climbed 57.3% to £195m and basic earnings per share were up 65% to 13.2p.
The airline delivered an operating margin of 9.1%. Total debt now
stands at £3.9bn and with cash of £2.8bn, our net debt is down to
£1.1bn.
Yet they still can't afford to pay our pensions???
BA said pretax profit in the three months to June 30 climbed 57.3% to £195m and basic earnings per share were up 65% to 13.2p.
The airline delivered an operating margin of 9.1%. Total debt now
stands at £3.9bn and with cash of £2.8bn, our net debt is down to
£1.1bn.
Yet they still can't afford to pay our pensions???
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It would appear BA are winding up many of their frontline staff right now with unworkable practices, more crew/groundstaff reductions where it would be impossible to offer any modicum of a 'premium' airline service, more pay cuts and of course the pension issue....
No way can they sit on their laurels,but its all going way too far....
Normal service will (and already is) beginning to suffer...
And yet again, some staff are pushed to breaking point with an uncaring/unlistening management.
I''ve heard of at least 2 strikes in the offing - unfortunate, but surely people realise that BA's staff are so frequently pushed to it because the company will not listen.......................
No way can they sit on their laurels,but its all going way too far....
Normal service will (and already is) beginning to suffer...
And yet again, some staff are pushed to breaking point with an uncaring/unlistening management.
I''ve heard of at least 2 strikes in the offing - unfortunate, but surely people realise that BA's staff are so frequently pushed to it because the company will not listen.......................
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Hasn't anyone else picked up on the fact that THE CHAIRMAN OF THE PENSIONS TRUSTEES - Roger Maynard, was given over 106,000 BA shares in June - a value of OVER £400,000.
Conflict of interest??????
Conflict of interest??????