BA pilots 'prepared to strike'?
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A rare twopennorth from me.
If BA decide to abandon the FSS I WILL STRIKE UNTIL THE BASTARDS GO BANKRUPT! If my colleagues decide the same then it will be a short dispute, if they do not then it will be an acrimonious time, there will be no goodwill and there will be little co-operation between the warring factions. In short, there will probably not be any winners.
Despite that, I am not willing to let my future prosperity and the security of my family play second fiddle to the lies and spin of a bunch of grasping liars.
GET YOUR THIEVING, LYING HANDS OFF MY PENSION!
ok?
If BA decide to abandon the FSS I WILL STRIKE UNTIL THE BASTARDS GO BANKRUPT! If my colleagues decide the same then it will be a short dispute, if they do not then it will be an acrimonious time, there will be no goodwill and there will be little co-operation between the warring factions. In short, there will probably not be any winners.
Despite that, I am not willing to let my future prosperity and the security of my family play second fiddle to the lies and spin of a bunch of grasping liars.
GET YOUR THIEVING, LYING HANDS OFF MY PENSION!
ok?
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Bengermen,
Your post sums this thread up and straight from the heart.This is not just about an hourly rate pay increase/cut,working conditions nor any other issue.
This affects not only pilots but all BA staff,all other airline staff and people in other industries.
Gordon Brown has f***** up big time and it has been pointed out WW has taken on this problem.I signed up for final salary pension and that's what I want.Not a penny less or a penny more.
To say the pension issue will not get in the way of new aircraft orders only adds fuel to an already raging fire.I will have done 35 years when I leave and am entitled to go with the pension I signed up for when I'm put out to grass.
When we and others are constantly screwed by our employers in the airline industry we have to take it because of 9/11,oil price etc ,etc and any other excuse they can use.
When it comes to pensions they can **** right off.At the end of the day WW and Co will probably be on some 'super bonus' and share option to drive this pile of c*** through.You and I will be struggling and he'll be sat on his arse in the Caribean!!!.
Not off my pension.Talk is now very strong of one MASS action to send a clear message to WW and the leadership team(what a joke of a name)!!.
BA passengers have put up with a hell of a lot over the last two summers,so I hope if any action is taken maybe we should target elsewhere.I add I sincerely hope no industrial action comes but if that's what it takes then so be it.
I have served BA and it's loyal passengers for 20 years now and enjoy every day I come to work.This is now leaving a bitter taste and it is the first time I can say I support industrial action and feel very sad that I do.
After 35 years I feel I deserve reward for the service I have given to BA and before someone jumps in YES I know they and the passengers pay my wage's.THANK YOU,but you won't be paying my pension.
Downroute and from friends who work on the ground I have never heard so much angry talk about one subject.
Beware WW sit up and listen,do not break this still great company.
WTDWL.
Your post sums this thread up and straight from the heart.This is not just about an hourly rate pay increase/cut,working conditions nor any other issue.
This affects not only pilots but all BA staff,all other airline staff and people in other industries.
Gordon Brown has f***** up big time and it has been pointed out WW has taken on this problem.I signed up for final salary pension and that's what I want.Not a penny less or a penny more.
To say the pension issue will not get in the way of new aircraft orders only adds fuel to an already raging fire.I will have done 35 years when I leave and am entitled to go with the pension I signed up for when I'm put out to grass.
When we and others are constantly screwed by our employers in the airline industry we have to take it because of 9/11,oil price etc ,etc and any other excuse they can use.
When it comes to pensions they can **** right off.At the end of the day WW and Co will probably be on some 'super bonus' and share option to drive this pile of c*** through.You and I will be struggling and he'll be sat on his arse in the Caribean!!!.
Not off my pension.Talk is now very strong of one MASS action to send a clear message to WW and the leadership team(what a joke of a name)!!.
BA passengers have put up with a hell of a lot over the last two summers,so I hope if any action is taken maybe we should target elsewhere.I add I sincerely hope no industrial action comes but if that's what it takes then so be it.
I have served BA and it's loyal passengers for 20 years now and enjoy every day I come to work.This is now leaving a bitter taste and it is the first time I can say I support industrial action and feel very sad that I do.
After 35 years I feel I deserve reward for the service I have given to BA and before someone jumps in YES I know they and the passengers pay my wage's.THANK YOU,but you won't be paying my pension.
Downroute and from friends who work on the ground I have never heard so much angry talk about one subject.
Beware WW sit up and listen,do not break this still great company.
WTDWL.
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If you have been with the company for 35 years then you would have been entitled to remain on the old scheme. Your pension would not then be effected. If you are on the scheme that is effected then you must have chosen to take a cash bung to join the now bankrupt NAP scheme. I and many others were perhaps able to see that to convert was a risk not worth taking for a few thousand pounds that were on offer. Your situation then is of your own making so stop bleating like a suffed pig.
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HZ123 wake up and read WTDWL post correctly. Did you miss the bit where he/she said they will have served BA for 35 years by the time I leave and the bit where he/she says I have served BA for 20 years
Your posts on this forum before have shown you to be an out of touch muppet who does not get out of your windowless room in braincrank to often ,thank god for that, now who looks like a stuffed pig?
My twopeneth worth well bengerman sums it up
Your posts on this forum before have shown you to be an out of touch muppet who does not get out of your windowless room in braincrank to often ,thank god for that, now who looks like a stuffed pig?
My twopeneth worth well bengerman sums it up
Last edited by Da Dog; 28th Jan 2006 at 11:41.
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I remained in APS when the offer was made in 1984 to change over. I'm glad I did but I'm under no illusions that I'm in any way feather-bedded. What is happening to NAPS now could happen to APS later. After all, the company tried to make a raid on APS before. Those who are trying to protect NAPS have my full support.
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If NAPS gets stuffed, obvious that APS will get some later, not as much as NAPS, but APS will be at the table.
My understanding is BA paid staff to change from APS to NAPS in 1984 to help the company plan for the future, so if BA want staff to leave leave/change NAPS now they will pay some more cash.
Must remember staff who changed back in 1984 were helping the company at the company request, if NAPS is changed with no cash for staff, will only be a matter of time before woolf is back knocking at the door 4 more.!!!
My understanding is BA paid staff to change from APS to NAPS in 1984 to help the company plan for the future, so if BA want staff to leave leave/change NAPS now they will pay some more cash.
Must remember staff who changed back in 1984 were helping the company at the company request, if NAPS is changed with no cash for staff, will only be a matter of time before woolf is back knocking at the door 4 more.!!!
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BA eases staff fears
A poll of British Airways staff finds the company is making progress in convincing them of the seriousness of its pension problem.. More than half those questioned by MORI saw it as a threat to BA's survival. Two-thirds agreed that changes are needed to the pension scheme, which has a £1.4bn net deficit under new accounting rules. Some 80 percent agreed that they need to take action to secure their pension. BA talked last week with 14,500 staff, nearly half the members of its main scheme. Talks with trustees and unions will follow.
The poll will give BA some encouragement. While less than half felt that options had been explained clear;y, 49 percent said BA had been 'open and honest', with 21 percent agreeing.
Friday, January 27, 2006
Daily Mail
Just a shame they dont mention only 10% of staff in NAPS were asked these questions, so Two-thirds of staff is less than 7% of staff in this pension agree change is reqd.
So more than 93% of staff do not want change in plain English.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A poll of British Airways staff finds the company is making progress in convincing them of the seriousness of its pension problem.. More than half those questioned by MORI saw it as a threat to BA's survival. Two-thirds agreed that changes are needed to the pension scheme, which has a £1.4bn net deficit under new accounting rules. Some 80 percent agreed that they need to take action to secure their pension. BA talked last week with 14,500 staff, nearly half the members of its main scheme. Talks with trustees and unions will follow.
The poll will give BA some encouragement. While less than half felt that options had been explained clear;y, 49 percent said BA had been 'open and honest', with 21 percent agreeing.
Friday, January 27, 2006
Daily Mail
Just a shame they dont mention only 10% of staff in NAPS were asked these questions, so Two-thirds of staff is less than 7% of staff in this pension agree change is reqd.
So more than 93% of staff do not want change in plain English.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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well done, like no one else saves money each and every day.
Pilots need to begin to follow the business like every other group. BALPA, Seniorty, position of power all makes for a pilots ego and ensures market forces don't apply - try working for another profession and live with market forces, then you'll deserve your salery with everyone else. BA are giving alot at the moment, what exactly have the pilots given besides turing up for work for less than 900 hrs per year? Answers on a postcard...........
Pilots need to begin to follow the business like every other group. BALPA, Seniorty, position of power all makes for a pilots ego and ensures market forces don't apply - try working for another profession and live with market forces, then you'll deserve your salery with everyone else. BA are giving alot at the moment, what exactly have the pilots given besides turing up for work for less than 900 hrs per year? Answers on a postcard...........
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HZ123, pigs don't bleat, not sure about suffed pigs, though. 
Maybe they were sheep and the cat got their goat, or something
I love mixed metaphors.
Why are you so down on pilots?
On your $100 fare they get something between $5 and $8 depending on which side of the pond, and similar geographic distinctions. That is for BOTH pilots.
When the aircraft starts to shake rattle and roll, or funny noises, smoke, or flame and sparks start happening, and the cabin gets all hushed, it is astounding how quickly those "busdrivers" are upgraded. That is when they earn their pay.
And you begrudge them what is, in effect, less than your most miserly executives tip at any decent restaurant. Shame on you.
Maybe they were sheep and the cat got their goat, or something
I love mixed metaphors.
Why are you so down on pilots?
On your $100 fare they get something between $5 and $8 depending on which side of the pond, and similar geographic distinctions. That is for BOTH pilots.
When the aircraft starts to shake rattle and roll, or funny noises, smoke, or flame and sparks start happening, and the cabin gets all hushed, it is astounding how quickly those "busdrivers" are upgraded. That is when they earn their pay.
And you begrudge them what is, in effect, less than your most miserly executives tip at any decent restaurant. Shame on you.
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Swedish,
You seem to have made an amateurish mistake in saying that we 'only turn up for work for 900 hours per year', you are obviously not a pilot. The 900 hour limit is on flying hours, so actual time that the aircraft is moving, we work much longer than this. Briefings, turn-arounds, admin, positioning between airports or aircraft do not fall under this limit. In fact on a given day you may only work for 4-6 flying hours but may have worked 10.5 - 12 hours during the day.
You seem to have made an amateurish mistake in saying that we 'only turn up for work for 900 hours per year', you are obviously not a pilot. The 900 hour limit is on flying hours, so actual time that the aircraft is moving, we work much longer than this. Briefings, turn-arounds, admin, positioning between airports or aircraft do not fall under this limit. In fact on a given day you may only work for 4-6 flying hours but may have worked 10.5 - 12 hours during the day.
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I see how, the problem with pilots, unlike other forms of disputes (where members meet en mass) is the fact that most of you are all over the globe and cannot be brought together.
Granted you may chat in the f/d but does your F/O or Captain share the views of yourself?
Airlines are astute at splitting up union members on flights.
Taking action via union membership is comparatively new to pilots, unlike disputes of the past such as coal miners and building workers. This is new to you! And I fear BALPA haven’t the balls. Reps/shop stewards in the old days would stand your corner.
As to date, the divide of bases in the loco brings to mind the working practises of bus companies such as ‘Stagecoach’ (take notice) wages and working times were ‘singular’ to each depot, no collective agreements.. Be warned.
Granted you may chat in the f/d but does your F/O or Captain share the views of yourself?
Airlines are astute at splitting up union members on flights.
Taking action via union membership is comparatively new to pilots, unlike disputes of the past such as coal miners and building workers. This is new to you! And I fear BALPA haven’t the balls. Reps/shop stewards in the old days would stand your corner.
As to date, the divide of bases in the loco brings to mind the working practises of bus companies such as ‘Stagecoach’ (take notice) wages and working times were ‘singular’ to each depot, no collective agreements.. Be warned.
swedish
Pilots should be following the business "like every other group" - don't make me laugh - would you care to name these "other groups" within BA who set such a wonderful example that the pilots should be following them?
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The problem with pilot unions is that they are not unions.
You only have to look at the names to realise that. Nowhere is the word union mentioned.
Many "associations" see themselves as proxies for management and try to take the "reasonable" approach to industrial relations.
Unions are not about reasonable, they are about power and the perception of power.
You will only achieve what you are willing to fight for. It will not be given to you on a plate simply because you make a reasonable argument, and real unions understand that and work on that basis.
Management fully realise this. Hence Leo H-C.
And the constant downward pressure on T&Cs industry wide.
On a $100 fare we are only talking a few dollars, but it comes out of the workers pocket, not the customer's. This is because divide and rule has pitted airlines against airlines in predatory and sometimes financially suicidal behaviour with ridiculous fares, sometimes at below cost, yet the respective pilots stand by and watch their mutual positions erode without a wimper.
Not long ago I saw a graph of the real value of an air ticket over a 30 year period (from Quantas, I think) as compared to a house, car, loaf of bread, and the airfare had sunk by 90% compared to a car, more than that against a house.
A significant portion of that has come out of the employees pockets.
Until the pilots ( and other airline workers) realise they are cutting each others throats and devise a plan to counter this, the trend will continue.
edited because finger is quicker than brain
You only have to look at the names to realise that. Nowhere is the word union mentioned.
Many "associations" see themselves as proxies for management and try to take the "reasonable" approach to industrial relations.
Unions are not about reasonable, they are about power and the perception of power.
You will only achieve what you are willing to fight for. It will not be given to you on a plate simply because you make a reasonable argument, and real unions understand that and work on that basis.
Management fully realise this. Hence Leo H-C.
And the constant downward pressure on T&Cs industry wide.
On a $100 fare we are only talking a few dollars, but it comes out of the workers pocket, not the customer's. This is because divide and rule has pitted airlines against airlines in predatory and sometimes financially suicidal behaviour with ridiculous fares, sometimes at below cost, yet the respective pilots stand by and watch their mutual positions erode without a wimper.
Not long ago I saw a graph of the real value of an air ticket over a 30 year period (from Quantas, I think) as compared to a house, car, loaf of bread, and the airfare had sunk by 90% compared to a car, more than that against a house.
A significant portion of that has come out of the employees pockets.
Until the pilots ( and other airline workers) realise they are cutting each others throats and devise a plan to counter this, the trend will continue.
edited because finger is quicker than brain
Last edited by ZQA297/30; 28th Jan 2006 at 23:44.
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Blueprint
I have read this thread with interest.
Having been involved with the BA pension some years ago, there is a lot of uncertainty being aired. The fact is BA can, with 6 months notice close, both NAPS & APS. However they are contractually bound to honour existing committments earned to that point. This is their problem. At that point they have a fixed liability (approx £2B in NAPS) which has to be set aside. At the moment they are allowed to pay it off in annual installments (Approx £225pa).
This is their problem. They are between a rock & a hard place.
The Balpa team have a strong hand, I suggest you back them to the hilt, although the future accural rates looks uncertain, what is banked is safe.
After all those very close to retirement could do just that & retire with a deferred pension (& go to SIA etc, for a short period). I really do not think BA could cope with a large number of early retirements.
Having been involved with the BA pension some years ago, there is a lot of uncertainty being aired. The fact is BA can, with 6 months notice close, both NAPS & APS. However they are contractually bound to honour existing committments earned to that point. This is their problem. At that point they have a fixed liability (approx £2B in NAPS) which has to be set aside. At the moment they are allowed to pay it off in annual installments (Approx £225pa).
This is their problem. They are between a rock & a hard place.
The Balpa team have a strong hand, I suggest you back them to the hilt, although the future accural rates looks uncertain, what is banked is safe.
After all those very close to retirement could do just that & retire with a deferred pension (& go to SIA etc, for a short period). I really do not think BA could cope with a large number of early retirements.
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I think a dose of reality would not go a miss here!!
Firstly, fighting for your "rights" is perfectly acceptable as long as the means justify the end.
History can teach us many things and we have already seen today people who paid their "stamp" throughout their lives being given nothing for it. In short, things change, nothing is for certain.
I myself am 40, have built up a very nice pension pot both from an ex final salary scheme and in a current AVC and money purchase arrangement. I have 20 years to go and certain things have to happen if I am to collect:
1) For my final scheme, my (previous) employer has to remain in business or else I get almost nothing. There are supposed to be rules and reserves, but in reality I would get maybe 20% of what I am currently entitled to
2) The money purchase scheme is in stocks/shares/bonds etc. I am a baby boomer and do you really think there will be enough going around to pay us all when I retire. All that money being cashed in from the government bonds or a sharp fall as we sell stocks to pay the pension. I doubt it will be worth that much in 20 years, and even if it is, a recession or a period of inflation above 4% will quickly reduce my pension to peanuts.
We were all promised pensions and a happy retirement in return for paying in. We now know those sums don't add up for all but the current few and maybe those to retire in the next few years. The outgoings together with health, longer life etc make the promises false.
So, we can bury our head in the sands, bang our drum and scream that its not fair, but we have to lower the expectations and accept what is affordable.
Moving forward, there needs to be a complete rethink on pensions to make them much more meaningful and less risky. Payouts will be that much lower but be reasonable.
Then you can make a decision on whether to invest in a pension, a house, gold or whatever.
Firstly, fighting for your "rights" is perfectly acceptable as long as the means justify the end.
History can teach us many things and we have already seen today people who paid their "stamp" throughout their lives being given nothing for it. In short, things change, nothing is for certain.
I myself am 40, have built up a very nice pension pot both from an ex final salary scheme and in a current AVC and money purchase arrangement. I have 20 years to go and certain things have to happen if I am to collect:
1) For my final scheme, my (previous) employer has to remain in business or else I get almost nothing. There are supposed to be rules and reserves, but in reality I would get maybe 20% of what I am currently entitled to
2) The money purchase scheme is in stocks/shares/bonds etc. I am a baby boomer and do you really think there will be enough going around to pay us all when I retire. All that money being cashed in from the government bonds or a sharp fall as we sell stocks to pay the pension. I doubt it will be worth that much in 20 years, and even if it is, a recession or a period of inflation above 4% will quickly reduce my pension to peanuts.
We were all promised pensions and a happy retirement in return for paying in. We now know those sums don't add up for all but the current few and maybe those to retire in the next few years. The outgoings together with health, longer life etc make the promises false.
So, we can bury our head in the sands, bang our drum and scream that its not fair, but we have to lower the expectations and accept what is affordable.
Moving forward, there needs to be a complete rethink on pensions to make them much more meaningful and less risky. Payouts will be that much lower but be reasonable.
Then you can make a decision on whether to invest in a pension, a house, gold or whatever.
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I’m with DaveOleary on this one…. I sincerely doubt BA pilots & BALPA have the balls to unite and strike! “BIG” Willie’s going to steal your pensions and piss all over you in the process.