BA pilots 'prepared to strike'?
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Jinbabyne - Its not that we want to strike. Its not that we won't exhaust other options first (like what is going on now). What is happening here, is we (at least some of us) are saying that we will strike if the other options have run out and the deal is a bad one. What other choice do we have?
I am very much against strikes in most cases (look at previous threads I have contributed to). I am against London underground striking every year in order to screw more money out of the travelling public and against the wildcat stuff that we have seen before.
I am however, not against striking if 40% of my pension is stolen by a management who can create other ways of solving the problem. If that inconveniences the public, it is a real shame, but as I said above, when other things have been exhausted, what can we do?
I put in a lot of effort for the people who pay my wages - way beyond what my contract states. I don't "work to rule", nor do I want to. Sometimes though, things get so serious that you have to send a serious message. Pensions are too important a thing to just let them be taken.
I am very much against strikes in most cases (look at previous threads I have contributed to). I am against London underground striking every year in order to screw more money out of the travelling public and against the wildcat stuff that we have seen before.
I am however, not against striking if 40% of my pension is stolen by a management who can create other ways of solving the problem. If that inconveniences the public, it is a real shame, but as I said above, when other things have been exhausted, what can we do?
I put in a lot of effort for the people who pay my wages - way beyond what my contract states. I don't "work to rule", nor do I want to. Sometimes though, things get so serious that you have to send a serious message. Pensions are too important a thing to just let them be taken.
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Originally Posted by M.Mouse
Why does nobody mention the government's significant part in precipitating the current 'pensions crisis'?
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whattimedoweland :
To hammer the Unions at BA with his baseball bat! The reason the BA Board gave him the job, and not to some affable well connected city slicker.
The rest of your post sounds as if you have already admitted defeat. "Super Union" at BA? You kidding me? You'll have enough trouble uniting the Pilots seniority list, never mind getting Cleaners, caterers, drivers, part time cabin crew etc etc to align with "fat cat" 747 skippers!!! WW will massacre you.
True but not given to him, he'll want to see you all down to the same cost base as Emirates crews at least, then give the BALPA Rep a kick up the arse as he leaves the negotiating room with no bus fare home.
Jeezzz this is really getting sad.
He's just doing the job he was brought into BA for!! And for what he gets paid for just like YOU!
Correct. He was a Cadet Pilot, Line Pilot, then Union Rep, then spent the rest of the his time in EI trying to shaft the Unions, Pilots, and "Buddies". But then again that was his job at the time!!!
Wrong. EI is no more subsidised/protected than BA is. That is against EU rules. EI was/is very profitable too, probably just as healthy as BA is. Oh, and in this game there are no winners and losers. Except maybe the shareholders. WW or BALPA cannot WIN, just bleed each other till someone outside the ring throws in the towel, and everyone goes home to lick their wounds, but the BA Pilots life committed to the seniority list will feel the pain for years. Not WW.
WW did not win at Aer Lingus, yes he managed the railroad through changes in working conditions and pay in all departments through post 9/11 hysteria and creative accounting. But he failed miserably in his plan to OWN the airline through a failed management buyout bid. WW, 25 years from spotty faced cadet at the bottom of the seniority list to OWNING the Airline! Would have made a great book, but alas the real Big Boss Bertie Ahern knew what was really going on. WW's plan to mismanage the company and shipwreck the national airline, before buying it cheap with his financial cronies failed. The subsequent quick rebuild and share price increase would have made him Millions. Too bad Willie. Well at least you managed to jump ship to BA at the right time, and go back to doing what you do best, taking on Pilots, taking on your own.
The BALPA fight being talked up by pilots on this thread already looks very weak, not that hard a fight for seasoned WW.
Ornithopter -
The other way of solving the pension problem is going after your Union, unity, and cost base. Things will fall like a pack of cards after that. WW IS exhausting the other possibilities! Stick together!
WW has come in to BA waving a baseball bat bringing his 'hardman' image with him from Aer Lingus.
The rest of your post sounds as if you have already admitted defeat. "Super Union" at BA? You kidding me? You'll have enough trouble uniting the Pilots seniority list, never mind getting Cleaners, caterers, drivers, part time cabin crew etc etc to align with "fat cat" 747 skippers!!! WW will massacre you.
He has come to a profit making company whose employee's have already given much and still realize we will have to give more.
It is the manner in which he treats people
and has no interest in the pensions of his workforce that has pi**ed off pilots and the rest of us.
He does not give a sh*t about the workforce
You had a fight Walsh with a government subsidised airline and you won.
WW did not win at Aer Lingus, yes he managed the railroad through changes in working conditions and pay in all departments through post 9/11 hysteria and creative accounting. But he failed miserably in his plan to OWN the airline through a failed management buyout bid. WW, 25 years from spotty faced cadet at the bottom of the seniority list to OWNING the Airline! Would have made a great book, but alas the real Big Boss Bertie Ahern knew what was really going on. WW's plan to mismanage the company and shipwreck the national airline, before buying it cheap with his financial cronies failed. The subsequent quick rebuild and share price increase would have made him Millions. Too bad Willie. Well at least you managed to jump ship to BA at the right time, and go back to doing what you do best, taking on Pilots, taking on your own.
The BALPA fight being talked up by pilots on this thread already looks very weak, not that hard a fight for seasoned WW.
Ornithopter -
I am however, not against striking if 40% of my pension is stolen by a management who can create other ways of solving the problem. If that inconveniences the public, it is a real shame, but as I said above, when other things have been exhausted, what can we do?
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Suv,
Just watch this space.It looks from your post you really are looking forward to to seeing the BA pilots taking a real beating.
We'll just have to wait and see.
WTDWL.
Just watch this space.It looks from your post you really are looking forward to to seeing the BA pilots taking a real beating.
We'll just have to wait and see.
WTDWL.
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WTDWL,
Yes I will watch this space with great interest. Fortunately as a bystander this time.
I have already been threatened with : compulsory redundancy, suspension, redeployment, disciplinary investigation, and been on strike and locked out along with my colleagues while under WW's reign.
I do not want to see the BA guys or anyone getting a beating as you claim. Once their terms and conditions go down, everyone else in the UK goes down to. I am not employed in the UK and probably never will be but this is an International industry which knows no borders.
I am concerned about people like you who don't quite know what you could be up against, don't know much about WW, and come out with comments like
Pathetic, well thats told WW now hasn't it!!!
As I've said before the only thing that will save you is 100% unity and that is what BALPA must acheive , and quick.
Yes,
We'll just have to wait and see.
Yes I will watch this space with great interest. Fortunately as a bystander this time.
I have already been threatened with : compulsory redundancy, suspension, redeployment, disciplinary investigation, and been on strike and locked out along with my colleagues while under WW's reign.
I do not want to see the BA guys or anyone getting a beating as you claim. Once their terms and conditions go down, everyone else in the UK goes down to. I am not employed in the UK and probably never will be but this is an International industry which knows no borders.
I am concerned about people like you who don't quite know what you could be up against, don't know much about WW, and come out with comments like
Do us all a favour and go.
As I've said before the only thing that will save you is 100% unity and that is what BALPA must acheive , and quick.Yes,
We'll just have to wait and see.
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Thanks for your concerns Suv. From your vantage point you are only trying to warn everyone what is likely to happen and I agree with you entirely. I joined BA just before WW. Having weighed up the pros and cons I thought BA would work out for the best, then WW joined. It is a whole new equation now and I wouldn't have joined if I had known this big variable.
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This time you'll have a real fight you will find harder.The reason is,we the employee's who have been here for year's to make it a success, and we don't need you to come in and shatter morale and ruin it all.
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There are simplistic scenarios being spouted here that would make Oliver Stone, king of conspiracy, a proud man.
So WW intended to run down EI, buy it and then implement a "quick fix" to make millions? Such a simplistic view of the complexities of running a large and complex organisation belittles opinion on how to fix the BA pension problem.
This is not about shafting pilots. it's about fixing a hole that has arisen for a whole range of issues. Who's going to suffer under the current proposals? the members of the scheme; no debate. Are the current proposals right? That's where the debate is. But that debate should not be a simplistic "WW with baseball bat" debate. if he could magic a solution that avoided confrontation he would, because it's easier for him. He can't however, and so he'll look to fix it another way. And if that way means pain for one group of people then we know he'll not shirk from taking that option.
This is a MASSIVE problem which is why radical action is being talked about by management. it would take years of profits going fully into the pension fund to fix it. And if the profits are going into the pension fund they're not going to sharegholders who, ultimately, are... pension funds, needing the cash to pay pension liabilities now.
it's a very difficult situation. But it's not a simplistic one, so keep the debate off the bottom and out of the mud.
So WW intended to run down EI, buy it and then implement a "quick fix" to make millions? Such a simplistic view of the complexities of running a large and complex organisation belittles opinion on how to fix the BA pension problem.
This is not about shafting pilots. it's about fixing a hole that has arisen for a whole range of issues. Who's going to suffer under the current proposals? the members of the scheme; no debate. Are the current proposals right? That's where the debate is. But that debate should not be a simplistic "WW with baseball bat" debate. if he could magic a solution that avoided confrontation he would, because it's easier for him. He can't however, and so he'll look to fix it another way. And if that way means pain for one group of people then we know he'll not shirk from taking that option.
This is a MASSIVE problem which is why radical action is being talked about by management. it would take years of profits going fully into the pension fund to fix it. And if the profits are going into the pension fund they're not going to sharegholders who, ultimately, are... pension funds, needing the cash to pay pension liabilities now.
it's a very difficult situation. But it's not a simplistic one, so keep the debate off the bottom and out of the mud.
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sugden-time to reflect
The pension hole real as it is presents an opportunity for particular type of management culture.
"Are the current proposals right?"
This is not where the debate should be. "Is this the issue to test the unity?"
"Is this the issue to impose the will, the right to manage?"
"Are the current proposals right?"
This is not where the debate should be. "Is this the issue to test the unity?"
"Is this the issue to impose the will, the right to manage?"
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Sugden - I think you are mostly right, however, it wouldn't take "years of profits going fully into the pension fund to fix it". At first glance that may seem so, but in reality:
1. BA could sensibly fix the problem in the 10 years they would have from the pensions regulator. In that time, they could also pay a dividend.
2. If you look at it another way, BA could fix the problem sensibly in two years and pay a dividend after that.
3. Alternatively BA could fix it this year, and deplete the cash reserves, but that would not be sensible.
4. They could also take it from us.
If they choose the last one, I think a strike is fair, warranted and a distinct possibility. If they do 3, I think they are exposing the business to too much risk. 1 or 2 would be my favoured options.
BA have been paying off significant debt over the last 3 years. There is no reason why the pensions debt should not be paid off in the same way. It is a debt like any other.
If the Chancellor changes the tax law for profits, BA don't come asking for it from our pensions. If interest rates change so that charges on the aircraft borrowing goes up, BA don't come and ask for it from our pensions. If we live longer, perhaps that is down to us, so I will pay an extra 10% of my current pension payments to cover it, but I will not pay any extra for interest rates or Chancellors. BA can afford to pay that, like they would any other debt, if it changed the same way as pension debt has changed.
1. BA could sensibly fix the problem in the 10 years they would have from the pensions regulator. In that time, they could also pay a dividend.
2. If you look at it another way, BA could fix the problem sensibly in two years and pay a dividend after that.
3. Alternatively BA could fix it this year, and deplete the cash reserves, but that would not be sensible.
4. They could also take it from us.
If they choose the last one, I think a strike is fair, warranted and a distinct possibility. If they do 3, I think they are exposing the business to too much risk. 1 or 2 would be my favoured options.
BA have been paying off significant debt over the last 3 years. There is no reason why the pensions debt should not be paid off in the same way. It is a debt like any other.
If the Chancellor changes the tax law for profits, BA don't come asking for it from our pensions. If interest rates change so that charges on the aircraft borrowing goes up, BA don't come and ask for it from our pensions. If we live longer, perhaps that is down to us, so I will pay an extra 10% of my current pension payments to cover it, but I will not pay any extra for interest rates or Chancellors. BA can afford to pay that, like they would any other debt, if it changed the same way as pension debt has changed.
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12 pages and not much further on. I still hope you win. This pension debt is pretty much quantifiable, finite number of people affected, affordable in the grand scheme of thing in BA finances over time and whats more important its what you contracted into. That said FSP are dead in the water for most.
However, if you really must strike, do you think you could just get on with the ballot and do it, preferably not in Feb coz I'm off to OZ and currently torn between Emirates at £860 and BA at £1600 (my wife will think its her right to spend more than the difference in DXB duty free).
Could you also take a tip from the Danes, when they came in boats with oars, they didn't warn us they were coming and consequently all the girls in Largs got a good rogering. When they go on strike their thread starts 'SAS on strike'; note this is not the same as 'SAS prepared to' or 'SAS might try to scare their boss and the travelling public by gently suggesting IA'. Just a thought
Word of caution, if by any chance you do have your ballot and it happens to highlight any divisions within the pilot workforce please don't be surprised if Willie drives in a wedge to split you further, also don't be surprised if you get lots of posts saying I told you so. Not from me obviously I'll be on your web site applying for a DEC.
BTW, no offence to Danes or the girls in Largs.
However, if you really must strike, do you think you could just get on with the ballot and do it, preferably not in Feb coz I'm off to OZ and currently torn between Emirates at £860 and BA at £1600 (my wife will think its her right to spend more than the difference in DXB duty free).
Could you also take a tip from the Danes, when they came in boats with oars, they didn't warn us they were coming and consequently all the girls in Largs got a good rogering. When they go on strike their thread starts 'SAS on strike'; note this is not the same as 'SAS prepared to' or 'SAS might try to scare their boss and the travelling public by gently suggesting IA'. Just a thought
Word of caution, if by any chance you do have your ballot and it happens to highlight any divisions within the pilot workforce please don't be surprised if Willie drives in a wedge to split you further, also don't be surprised if you get lots of posts saying I told you so. Not from me obviously I'll be on your web site applying for a DEC.
BTW, no offence to Danes or the girls in Largs.
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EI-CFC, aka SAAB340
I have re read the wording of my post and apologise for the way it sounded.It in no way was meant to imply that the good folk from EI did'nt try.
No offence meant.
WTDWL.
I have re read the wording of my post and apologise for the way it sounded.It in no way was meant to imply that the good folk from EI did'nt try.
No offence meant.
WTDWL.
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When they go on strike their thread starts 'SAS on strike'; note this is not the same as 'SAS prepared to' or 'SAS might try to scare their boss and the travelling public by gently suggesting IA'. Just a thought
But as I was publicising a BALPA website instead, I didn't.
Overstress (looking forward to Willie trying to drive his wooden wedges into the workforce... or whatever
)
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Going in to flight ops management at BA has often been known euphamistically as "going over to the Dark Side", so I am more than a little suspicious of "Darkstar's" pronouncements of disunity on a nightstop straw poll. As SUV suggests, we need absolute unity of the BA pilot force to deal with WW's pensions grab, for that is what it is, so what better to undermine this than spreading the rumour that unity is lacking?
The trouble for the Darkstar point of view is that unity is not lacking -every single trip I do I meet pilots absolutely resolute on this issue - every single one. That includes BARP members and those in APS. I have not met one single waverer, and have in every case waited to hear a view expressed before engaging in the pension debate, rather than express my own and demand agreement.
BA have virtually said that they can afford to pay for pensions, but that they just dont want to. Its put to us as: "pensions or new aeroplanes"? I.e. we can either pay for the new aircraft with what would have been our pensions, or else!
This tactic was tried at Birmingham, (hi there Rob, how is management these days?!), where pilot concessions were used to "fund" 'investment' in new aircraft..............that then never turned up. Funny old thing.
BA pilots are not naive any more, and I suggest that WW has the fight of his life on his hands. If NAPS closes or goes to career averaging, BA is finished. Finished because it will be impossible to run in the aftermath of a strike where the terms are "take it or leave it", impossible to run without ANY goodwill, and equally impossible to run with contract pilots - there aren't 3000 people out there with the correct CAA/JAR licenses and type ratings, and if there were there would'nt be any BA trainers to train them, let alone an insurance company willing to underwrite such an unkown quantity.
I strongly suspect that there will be a ballot even if increased contributions are sought. BA has lied and spun to the pilots for years, as well as abusing engineering with endless reorganisations. This time it isn't working. I have never seen people so incensed AND yet also quietly resolved to defy this pensions raid.
Odd that WW seeks his fortune at others cost every time. Last time it was the Irish taxpayer with his flawed plan to privatise Aer Lingus and enrich himself with the proceeds, this time its BA's pensioners in waiting, where WW's bonus will see an exponential rise if he can pull-off the grab of the new century.
News just in for BA management and City observers thereof:
He cant.
The trouble for the Darkstar point of view is that unity is not lacking -every single trip I do I meet pilots absolutely resolute on this issue - every single one. That includes BARP members and those in APS. I have not met one single waverer, and have in every case waited to hear a view expressed before engaging in the pension debate, rather than express my own and demand agreement.
BA have virtually said that they can afford to pay for pensions, but that they just dont want to. Its put to us as: "pensions or new aeroplanes"? I.e. we can either pay for the new aircraft with what would have been our pensions, or else!
This tactic was tried at Birmingham, (hi there Rob, how is management these days?!), where pilot concessions were used to "fund" 'investment' in new aircraft..............that then never turned up. Funny old thing.
BA pilots are not naive any more, and I suggest that WW has the fight of his life on his hands. If NAPS closes or goes to career averaging, BA is finished. Finished because it will be impossible to run in the aftermath of a strike where the terms are "take it or leave it", impossible to run without ANY goodwill, and equally impossible to run with contract pilots - there aren't 3000 people out there with the correct CAA/JAR licenses and type ratings, and if there were there would'nt be any BA trainers to train them, let alone an insurance company willing to underwrite such an unkown quantity.
I strongly suspect that there will be a ballot even if increased contributions are sought. BA has lied and spun to the pilots for years, as well as abusing engineering with endless reorganisations. This time it isn't working. I have never seen people so incensed AND yet also quietly resolved to defy this pensions raid.
Odd that WW seeks his fortune at others cost every time. Last time it was the Irish taxpayer with his flawed plan to privatise Aer Lingus and enrich himself with the proceeds, this time its BA's pensioners in waiting, where WW's bonus will see an exponential rise if he can pull-off the grab of the new century.
News just in for BA management and City observers thereof:
He cant.
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Fred, where do you get the idea that you can't be replaced? I assume you are a Nigel from the tone of your post. Well there are hundreds of us out there flying big jets with 1000s of hours accident free who would love your job. Yes, we have chips on our shoulders because we either failed the BA selection or other circumstances. But we are out there flying for EK, CX etc and prepared to come back to blighty for the going rate.
I would guess that 3000 pilots aren't required either as short haul would be scrapped.
I suggest you come to the best deal you can without striking and watch your backs!
I would guess that 3000 pilots aren't required either as short haul would be scrapped.
I suggest you come to the best deal you can without striking and watch your backs!
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Well there are hundreds of us out there flying big jets with 1000s of hours accident free who would love your job.......But we are out there flying for EK, CX etc and prepared to come back to blighty for the going rate
I would guess that 3000 pilots aren't required either as short haul would be scrapped
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Anyway theres only about 1000 short haul pilots so you still need 2000. As 200 of the 300 odd we flew into LHR were transfering to short haul the other morning i'd suggest binning it entirely might be a bad idea.
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747,
You may think you would come back to BA but there are many pilots with good experience turning BA down due to the package being offered and temped elsewhere with tax-free incentives and accommodation etc.
BA for pilots is no longer 'golden runways' and with our caring new boss at the helm of HMS 'Shaft'em' is now even less attractive.
Do though step over the fence if you think the grass is greener.But beware where ever you step over tread carefully because it looks like all the cows(four legged type) in the UK have done their mess!!!
.
WTDWL.
You may think you would come back to BA but there are many pilots with good experience turning BA down due to the package being offered and temped elsewhere with tax-free incentives and accommodation etc.
BA for pilots is no longer 'golden runways' and with our caring new boss at the helm of HMS 'Shaft'em' is now even less attractive.
Do though step over the fence if you think the grass is greener.But beware where ever you step over tread carefully because it looks like all the cows(four legged type) in the UK have done their mess!!!
.WTDWL.
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C'mon down to job swap! AS IF!!
It ain't gonna happen and we all know it. BA without the pension is just not worth it - nor bidline either. If WW removes either of those items then the gloves are off and all bets taken. I am certain of the collective feeling on these two items. If WW removes either there will only be one loser - him.
It ain't gonna happen and we all know it. BA without the pension is just not worth it - nor bidline either. If WW removes either of those items then the gloves are off and all bets taken. I am certain of the collective feeling on these two items. If WW removes either there will only be one loser - him.