BA pilots 'prepared to strike'?
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Yes your right Freehills.
The "I'm alright Jacks" have even sprung up in France now. The "I'm all right Jaques" are happy to work their 35hrs, job for life..... but if you're under 26 you've got a nerve to expect the same. Instant dismissal is all you deserve. I only hope the French youth burn the house down and deal with their greedy sanctimonius boomer generation.
There must come a time when the younger generation turn around and refuse to carry society's debt any more. Free education, mortgage relief, state health, state dentistry, company car, final salary pension, repayment mortgage, free type rating, sponsored training, time served not hoops jumped yada yada ya. You have got to admire the youth of today for their tollerance!
The "I'm alright Jacks" have even sprung up in France now. The "I'm all right Jaques" are happy to work their 35hrs, job for life..... but if you're under 26 you've got a nerve to expect the same. Instant dismissal is all you deserve. I only hope the French youth burn the house down and deal with their greedy sanctimonius boomer generation.
There must come a time when the younger generation turn around and refuse to carry society's debt any more. Free education, mortgage relief, state health, state dentistry, company car, final salary pension, repayment mortgage, free type rating, sponsored training, time served not hoops jumped yada yada ya. You have got to admire the youth of today for their tollerance!
Join Date: Apr 1999
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Sue the Bas***ds
A question?
If the pension as it stands today is part of your contract, as a number of people here have said it is, and then the company changes that contract against your wishes, why don't you sue?
Reading my own contract, the company agrees to provide the option of joining a pension scheme but it dosen't agree to any specific level of pension etc. I'm sure yours dosen't either.
The build up rates dropping back to 1/56th from 1/52 are just returning to what they were when Naps was opened. they changed to 1/52 in 1989 I think. Did anyone call for a strike when the build up rate was reduced, becasue the fund was in surplus? no didn't think so.
As for the other figures. BA has 2 billion in cash. about a billion of that is cash we get paid in advance. If we go on strike, that money, or some of it needs to be paid back for flights that don't operate. of the other billion, 500mill has been promised to the pension scheme. All of the big brains on here are suggesting that BA should stump up the other 500 mill as well. great idea, so when Osama get's down to business again, or bird flu stikes which pot of money shall we relay on to get us through the crisis? oh yeah, none of it casue it's all in the pension scheme. BA needs about 15million a day on hand to operate, any sensible person would keep at least 60 days worth of cash in reserve just in case it all hits the fan, don't you agree?
As for the increased retirment age, as the majority of BA pilots wanted to stay beyond 55 anyway, I don't see the problem. Also if you have done even a moderate amount of service and choose to work until your new retirment age, you will actually be better off in retirment, plus you'll have the opportunity to earn another 5 or 10 years wages.
I just hate it when people want to give me more money
The only bit I'm not keen on is the 2.5% cap increase in your pension in the future. if Inflation is below 2.5% then fine, if inflation is at 10% then interest rates will be at 10% so I don't see the problem with the pension cap being at 10% as well.
Let the vilification begin, but remeber, that, although you might not be able to see it from your ivory tower/flight deck, the world of pensions is changing, and even with the changes we still have a F**king good pension scheme that will keep you in wine and cheese for many years to come.
If the pension as it stands today is part of your contract, as a number of people here have said it is, and then the company changes that contract against your wishes, why don't you sue?
Reading my own contract, the company agrees to provide the option of joining a pension scheme but it dosen't agree to any specific level of pension etc. I'm sure yours dosen't either.
The build up rates dropping back to 1/56th from 1/52 are just returning to what they were when Naps was opened. they changed to 1/52 in 1989 I think. Did anyone call for a strike when the build up rate was reduced, becasue the fund was in surplus? no didn't think so.
As for the other figures. BA has 2 billion in cash. about a billion of that is cash we get paid in advance. If we go on strike, that money, or some of it needs to be paid back for flights that don't operate. of the other billion, 500mill has been promised to the pension scheme. All of the big brains on here are suggesting that BA should stump up the other 500 mill as well. great idea, so when Osama get's down to business again, or bird flu stikes which pot of money shall we relay on to get us through the crisis? oh yeah, none of it casue it's all in the pension scheme. BA needs about 15million a day on hand to operate, any sensible person would keep at least 60 days worth of cash in reserve just in case it all hits the fan, don't you agree?
As for the increased retirment age, as the majority of BA pilots wanted to stay beyond 55 anyway, I don't see the problem. Also if you have done even a moderate amount of service and choose to work until your new retirment age, you will actually be better off in retirment, plus you'll have the opportunity to earn another 5 or 10 years wages.
I just hate it when people want to give me more money
The only bit I'm not keen on is the 2.5% cap increase in your pension in the future. if Inflation is below 2.5% then fine, if inflation is at 10% then interest rates will be at 10% so I don't see the problem with the pension cap being at 10% as well.
Let the vilification begin, but remeber, that, although you might not be able to see it from your ivory tower/flight deck, the world of pensions is changing, and even with the changes we still have a F**king good pension scheme that will keep you in wine and cheese for many years to come.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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If the pension as it stands today is part of your contract, as a number of people here have said it is, and then the company changes that contract against your wishes, why don't you sue?
Join Date: Mar 2004
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The company have to honour agreements given to the tax office by way of deed up to the time that they can renegotiate a new agreement. They can dispose of the current liability by going bust and letting the PPF pick up the pieces or by buying everyone a deferred annuity to cover current liabilities. A mere £4Billion.
To ammend the deed they need to now negotiate with the trustees and provide an extensive information program to scheme members.
So it is perfectly legal to garuntee present benefits and ammend future benefits. They cannot make changes to already earned benefits, for that you could sue.
To ammend the deed they need to now negotiate with the trustees and provide an extensive information program to scheme members.
So it is perfectly legal to garuntee present benefits and ammend future benefits. They cannot make changes to already earned benefits, for that you could sue.
Most anti BA people are missing the point I think. It's not a case of us being upset at the possibility of having to work to 60 (although I would rather not). It's that BA are taking the pension that would be due to me at 55. It's just the same as me writing a cheque to them for a couple of hundred grand or effectively taking a 40% pay cut for my last 5 years. How many of you think it's ok to work hard for a company for 25 years, taking a 40% salary cut in the last part and then have less of a pension than you were promised.
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Flps62,
if you've done 25 years, you'll be back to your full pension if you work about 1 1/2 years longer. You'll also earn your full salary for that 1 1/2 years as well. you'll also have the opportunity to fly for a further 3 1/2 years, earn extra pensions and salary, at your current seinority level. if you leave and fly for emirates or Virgin, you'll be at the bottom of the pile and in Lagos every other trip.
so by my reconning, if you are willing to put in 18 months more then you'll earn and extra 110k (your pay) but will have lost out on about 75k in pension, so you'll still be 35k better off and then you can retire on your full pension (above is calcualted using the assumption you earn the average BA pilots salary of £75k)
I know it's a bind to work 18 months longer, but the world has changed and will keep on changing. the defict is not BAs fault, but it is it's responsisbility to fix. it could in thoery throw a billion at it but that would not solve the problem as we would all still be on the same terms and conditions, so the deficit would just start growing again.
If you choose to leave at 55 then it's your choice, but you pension will be slightly lower (5%?).
welcome to 2006!
if you've done 25 years, you'll be back to your full pension if you work about 1 1/2 years longer. You'll also earn your full salary for that 1 1/2 years as well. you'll also have the opportunity to fly for a further 3 1/2 years, earn extra pensions and salary, at your current seinority level. if you leave and fly for emirates or Virgin, you'll be at the bottom of the pile and in Lagos every other trip.
so by my reconning, if you are willing to put in 18 months more then you'll earn and extra 110k (your pay) but will have lost out on about 75k in pension, so you'll still be 35k better off and then you can retire on your full pension (above is calcualted using the assumption you earn the average BA pilots salary of £75k)
I know it's a bind to work 18 months longer, but the world has changed and will keep on changing. the defict is not BAs fault, but it is it's responsisbility to fix. it could in thoery throw a billion at it but that would not solve the problem as we would all still be on the same terms and conditions, so the deficit would just start growing again.
If you choose to leave at 55 then it's your choice, but you pension will be slightly lower (5%?).
welcome to 2006!
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Ah but Crash and Burn, when not if the NRA raises to 65 you may not be able to retire at 56 half because you will have to wait another 8 half years to collect your pension. Remember the letter only said you could retire early for a smaller pension, it did'nt go on to expand when you were going to get it. The devil is in the detail.
Crash,
As you point out, by working for an extra 18 months I might be 35k better off. So do you know anybody else who thinks that after 40 years of aviation and 25 years with BA, retiring as a skipper on an effective salary of less than £24k per year is reasonable?
As you point out, by working for an extra 18 months I might be 35k better off. So do you know anybody else who thinks that after 40 years of aviation and 25 years with BA, retiring as a skipper on an effective salary of less than £24k per year is reasonable?
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Hi Flaps,
I'd love to know how you get to the figure of 24k? I earn a whole lot less than 75k (I keep using this as an average, so no personal remark is intended) but my pension, if I'd done 25 years, would be nearly 20k, plus the state pension. giving me about 24k.
If you are going to end up on 24k then that will be the same as any one else with a command who's done 25 years service. so you'll be average.
24k is still a lot more than most people earn while they are working....
I'd love to know how you get to the figure of 24k? I earn a whole lot less than 75k (I keep using this as an average, so no personal remark is intended) but my pension, if I'd done 25 years, would be nearly 20k, plus the state pension. giving me about 24k.
If you are going to end up on 24k then that will be the same as any one else with a command who's done 25 years service. so you'll be average.
24k is still a lot more than most people earn while they are working....
I got £24k using the figures you gave:
If BA had kept their word I would have retired at 55 and started receiving a pension. Over the next 18 months this would be worth £75k (it will be much less than this but let's run with it!). If they force me to keep working, I will not receive this pension, but will earn £110k. Therefore, for working for 18 months I have received only £35 k.
If BA had kept their word I would have retired at 55 and started receiving a pension. Over the next 18 months this would be worth £75k (it will be much less than this but let's run with it!). If they force me to keep working, I will not receive this pension, but will earn £110k. Therefore, for working for 18 months I have received only £35 k.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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Crash,
Not sure where you get your figures from? If BA have their way, the pension won't pay out until 65, irrespective of when you leave. In addition, it won't have any effective inflation protection so it'll be worth less and less, year on year.
From my point of view, if I were able to claim at 55 based upon the new proposals, I would lose approximately 40% of my current planned pension. My break even point with the existing scheme would be at about the age of 63 and even then I wouldn't be able to actually claim it for another two years. I would therefore be claiming the same pension for ten years less, despite having planned for and paid for that pension to begin at 55. Equally, my life expectancy is likely to be a couple of years less based upon the fact that I'd have to work an extra ten years. It's lose-lose as far as I'm concerned.
Thieving b
ds!
if you've done 25 years, you'll be back to your full pension if you work about 1 1/2 years longer. You'll also earn your full salary for that 1 1/2 years as well.
From my point of view, if I were able to claim at 55 based upon the new proposals, I would lose approximately 40% of my current planned pension. My break even point with the existing scheme would be at about the age of 63 and even then I wouldn't be able to actually claim it for another two years. I would therefore be claiming the same pension for ten years less, despite having planned for and paid for that pension to begin at 55. Equally, my life expectancy is likely to be a couple of years less based upon the fact that I'd have to work an extra ten years. It's lose-lose as far as I'm concerned.
Thieving b
ds!
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HF how right you are, I am meeting an awfull lot of people who think its not to bad, scratch under the surface and it is. A Captain was telling me how he did'nt care since he was going in a few years and had 28 years service so at 55 it would'nt make a large amount of difference, his face turned sour when I told him he would need to wait until 60 possibly 65 to collect said pension.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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Pensions can still be claimed at 50 until 2010 when the earliest age becomes 55.
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All getting quite interesting!
In my non-BA pension world..15% salary contribution + company contribution after 25 years service will pay about 50 % final salary. Could be a little more could be less depending on the markets or the chancellors mood
Also based on hitting max. salary (barring inflation) at 10 years.
How does that compare?? just interested.
In my non-BA pension world..15% salary contribution + company contribution after 25 years service will pay about 50 % final salary. Could be a little more could be less depending on the markets or the chancellors mood
Also based on hitting max. salary (barring inflation) at 10 years.
How does that compare?? just interested.
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If anybody is thinking about taking a tax free lump sum, I can heartily recomend watching this webcast.
http://brighttalk.com/comm/sl/1d8dd48994-754-173-675
http://brighttalk.com/comm/sl/1d8dd48994-754-173-675
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The company's pension proposal is the final straw for me. Not only is it a poor offer, but it has been deviously designed to CON the majority into thinking it is not too bad. I find this so immoral, and if they are happy to do this to their employees, they are presumably happy to shaft their customers too.
I will be leaving just as soon as I can, and I hope a lot of other people follow suit. The company deserves to fall to pieces.
I will be leaving just as soon as I can, and I hope a lot of other people follow suit. The company deserves to fall to pieces.
Originally Posted by Da Dog
HF how right you are, I am meeting an awfull lot of people who think its not to bad, scratch under the surface and it is. A Captain was telling me how he did'nt care since he was going in a few years and had 28 years service so at 55 it would'nt make a large amount of difference, his face turned sour when I told him he would need to wait until 60 possibly 65 to collect said pension.
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I have to agree with GS-Alpha, the presentation of this is shocking
It is NOT a final salary scheme as it wil bear little relation to final salary
One of the "selling" points is that your previous service wn't be touched.
Well thank you for not doing something that would be illegal anyway!
A couple of questions I couldn't get answered
What do they mean when they say that longevity cost will be "shared"
If the NRA is increased what happens to one of my staff who is near retirement and want to go at 58, Does she get 2 years abatement(*) or 7?
Has anyone heard an answer to these?
* I think abatement is the right term for reducing your pension if you draw early
It is NOT a final salary scheme as it wil bear little relation to final salary
One of the "selling" points is that your previous service wn't be touched.
Well thank you for not doing something that would be illegal anyway!
A couple of questions I couldn't get answered
What do they mean when they say that longevity cost will be "shared"
If the NRA is increased what happens to one of my staff who is near retirement and want to go at 58, Does she get 2 years abatement(*) or 7?
Has anyone heard an answer to these?
* I think abatement is the right term for reducing your pension if you draw early
Originally Posted by BA-BEANCOUNTER
..........A couple of questions I couldn't get answered....[/I]
BTW I thought "abatement" was the reduction in your pension payment due to the questionable fact that you also receive the state pension, but I'm probably wrong.
Regards.