BA pilots 'prepared to strike'?
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Suvarnabhumi - fair enough, but isn't that part of what this thread is about?
I reckon this is the most united we have been for ages. Ok, there are new bods in BARP, but not all that many and the APS guys are probably alright. But the main body of us pilots are in NAPS and we do have some pressure to bear - we'll see what happens. WW didn't get away with some of the more unreasonable stuff he wanted to do in Lingus, so lets hope he doesn't manage it in BA. Reasonable stuff is needed, no doubt though.
Human Factor - you are of course right, but I doubt we will be in that position any time soon. How many pilots would someone like Etihad take? 40 from mixed fleets? That could be accommodated with a few tactical cancellations and force draft. Not a good or desirable position to be in, but its nothing the company aren't used to.
I reckon this is the most united we have been for ages. Ok, there are new bods in BARP, but not all that many and the APS guys are probably alright. But the main body of us pilots are in NAPS and we do have some pressure to bear - we'll see what happens. WW didn't get away with some of the more unreasonable stuff he wanted to do in Lingus, so lets hope he doesn't manage it in BA. Reasonable stuff is needed, no doubt though.
Human Factor - you are of course right, but I doubt we will be in that position any time soon. How many pilots would someone like Etihad take? 40 from mixed fleets? That could be accommodated with a few tactical cancellations and force draft. Not a good or desirable position to be in, but its nothing the company aren't used to.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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I see your point, ornithopter but consider if 40 777 captains jumped ship at the same time, for example. The operation would come to pieces. In principle, this isn't as outlandish as it may seem as a few senior guys could jump early to protect whatever pension they currently have.
Practically though, it would require a lot of coincidences:
BA being prepared to risk everything to railroad pension changes on the pilots; Etihad/Emirates/whoever being in a position to open a London base at around the same time; slots becoming available at LHR/LGW for these companies to justify expansion.
Certainly the latter would only happen if BA was prepared to risk everything and their bluff was called, in which case there would be a lot more than 40 pilots from BA available.....
Practically though, it would require a lot of coincidences:
BA being prepared to risk everything to railroad pension changes on the pilots; Etihad/Emirates/whoever being in a position to open a London base at around the same time; slots becoming available at LHR/LGW for these companies to justify expansion.
Certainly the latter would only happen if BA was prepared to risk everything and their bluff was called, in which case there would be a lot more than 40 pilots from BA available.....
Paxing All Over The World
ornithopter
That probably means that he won what he expected to win. Not nice but then, CEOs of PLCs are not supposed to be.
WW didn't get away with some of the more unreasonable stuff he wanted to do in Lingus, so lets hope he doesn't manage it in BA.
To clarify - by luck I meant getting the job - right place at the right time etc.
I don't like to fly with or be behind "lucky" pilots - Luck has a bad habit of running out.
I like the idea of well paid, well rested pilots who have the security to say no to dispatchers etc. My point is don't become like so many of the ALPA pilots (PATCO controllers?) over here who were just so convinced that that the world would grind to a halt if they did not get what they wanted. My suggestion was take a reality check with the rest of the world because like it or not we are all in a global labor market.
20driver
I don't like to fly with or be behind "lucky" pilots - Luck has a bad habit of running out.
I like the idea of well paid, well rested pilots who have the security to say no to dispatchers etc. My point is don't become like so many of the ALPA pilots (PATCO controllers?) over here who were just so convinced that that the world would grind to a halt if they did not get what they wanted. My suggestion was take a reality check with the rest of the world because like it or not we are all in a global labor market.
20driver
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And what about those of us in BA who rightly/wrongly couldn't afford the pension on joining, so have had a private one instead, and now are being hard-pressed by the company to yet again offer more significant savings in terms of productivity etc to pay out this crisis ???
Pensions are a minefield whatever the weather - but there aren't many in the UK who are not in the same/worse position in terms of pension outlook, so perhaps some of it will just have to go down to hard luck ?
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HF - I do know what you mean, but from a management point of view (I am not one by the way), I reckon they will rely upon the fact that the coincidences won't happen. However if 40 777 Capts left, then yes I agree it would be bad for the schedule!
PAXboy - exactly why we should stand up to the pension thing if the response is unreasonable - that way WW can win the things he wants to and not the things we don't want him to!
20driver - fair point, I think we have similar views in places.
Anti - most people are in pension trouble, but if I have 40% on mine taken away, then I reckon I will be one of the worst off in the country in percentage terms. We have to do something, and that will involve a loss to us whichever way you look at it, its how much we lose and for how long that matters.
PAXboy - exactly why we should stand up to the pension thing if the response is unreasonable - that way WW can win the things he wants to and not the things we don't want him to!
20driver - fair point, I think we have similar views in places.
Anti - most people are in pension trouble, but if I have 40% on mine taken away, then I reckon I will be one of the worst off in the country in percentage terms. We have to do something, and that will involve a loss to us whichever way you look at it, its how much we lose and for how long that matters.
Paxing All Over The World
orni Yes, indeed. I am on your side and of others that want to fight for pensions. Whilst it is apparent that pensions have to be adjusted to fit the current and future trading, it should be scaled acros ten or more years. Unfortunately, the CEO (and others) have their bonus's geared year by year and a benefit that is adjusted across ten years will not make them so much - even if it would be better for the company.
Politicians do the same thing - they cannot think further than doing something NOW that will have (they hope) the right effect to get them re-elected in X years time, irrespective of which is best for the company.
There is a humble charity I know: they failed to adjust a particular charging structure by a small amount each year and then had to make a massive adjustment in one go and, at a stroke, alienated dozens of their volunteers who were actually delivering what the charity promised it would.
So, once again, I expect that BA will be that silly as to provoke a strike.
Politicians do the same thing - they cannot think further than doing something NOW that will have (they hope) the right effect to get them re-elected in X years time, irrespective of which is best for the company.
There is a humble charity I know: they failed to adjust a particular charging structure by a small amount each year and then had to make a massive adjustment in one go and, at a stroke, alienated dozens of their volunteers who were actually delivering what the charity promised it would.
So, once again, I expect that BA will be that silly as to provoke a strike.
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And how did we get into this mess in the first place?
There is of course one obvious solution to the NAPS pensions crisis - raise the retirement age. So why is this not being explored in more depth? Because our incompetent Government will shortly impose age discrimination legislation without having given industry any notice of the form this legislation will take. I cannot believe that more invective is not being directed at Gordon Brown. He has raided the pensions pot of private industry in order to support massive pay and pension rises for the public sector.
And what is the Government's response to the problem? The Pensions Protection Fund, that will require cash-strapped companies to find ummm... more cash to create an extra insurance fund. How dim-witted is it possible to be?
Surely there is some financially-savvy newpaper editor out there who can publish the fact that this pensions misery for millions of workers in the private sector was created and exacerbated by the Government.
And what is the Government's response to the problem? The Pensions Protection Fund, that will require cash-strapped companies to find ummm... more cash to create an extra insurance fund. How dim-witted is it possible to be?
Surely there is some financially-savvy newpaper editor out there who can publish the fact that this pensions misery for millions of workers in the private sector was created and exacerbated by the Government.
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There are some very good newspaper articles, see
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/mai...1/ccjeff11.xml
and
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/busin...686496,00.html
Hope I'm not breaking Pprune rules by posting the URLs
Trouble is, it's just not front page news. I've tried to interest my MP (Alan Keen) in the debate but all I got back from him was an postcard of acknowledgement. I can't see him being very critical of Gordon Brown as his wife Ann Keen (also an MP) is PPS to Brown. They are also both very "keen" on trousering the MP's salary, expenses and pensions - double bubble in fact.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/mai...1/ccjeff11.xml
and
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/busin...686496,00.html
Hope I'm not breaking Pprune rules by posting the URLs
Trouble is, it's just not front page news. I've tried to interest my MP (Alan Keen) in the debate but all I got back from him was an postcard of acknowledgement. I can't see him being very critical of Gordon Brown as his wife Ann Keen (also an MP) is PPS to Brown. They are also both very "keen" on trousering the MP's salary, expenses and pensions - double bubble in fact.
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Bits from todays Irish Independant:
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independe...issue_id=13579
Walsh quit Aer Lingus in January 2005 to prevent accusations of conflict of interest when plans for a management buyout at the airline were torched by the Government. Two months later he was suddenly appointed to replace Rod Eddington as the chief executive of British Airways.
One of the key differences between running the semi-State Aer Lingus and stock market listed British Airways has been the change in the approach of the political community.
"The difference between politics running Aer Lingus and politics running British Airways is that here, you get the politicians asking what they can do for you and in Aer Lingus, it tended to be what can you do for them," he suggests. "I never experienced any direct political interference in how the airline was run. They may have expressed views but they didn't interfere."
Walsh is aiming to transform British Airways profitability, with a target of a 10 per cent operating margin, ahead of the airline's move to the Terminal 5 complex in Heathrow Airport. Despite rampant jet fuel prices, Walsh's arrival at BA has seen the company's share price hit a four-and-a-half-year high recently.
10 per cent operating margin is his goal, he's made his move against the managers, now the Pilots, the rest are next !!!
Interesting comment regarding UK politicians.
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independe...issue_id=13579
Walsh quit Aer Lingus in January 2005 to prevent accusations of conflict of interest when plans for a management buyout at the airline were torched by the Government. Two months later he was suddenly appointed to replace Rod Eddington as the chief executive of British Airways.
One of the key differences between running the semi-State Aer Lingus and stock market listed British Airways has been the change in the approach of the political community.
"The difference between politics running Aer Lingus and politics running British Airways is that here, you get the politicians asking what they can do for you and in Aer Lingus, it tended to be what can you do for them," he suggests. "I never experienced any direct political interference in how the airline was run. They may have expressed views but they didn't interfere."
Walsh is aiming to transform British Airways profitability, with a target of a 10 per cent operating margin, ahead of the airline's move to the Terminal 5 complex in Heathrow Airport. Despite rampant jet fuel prices, Walsh's arrival at BA has seen the company's share price hit a four-and-a-half-year high recently.
10 per cent operating margin is his goal, he's made his move against the managers, now the Pilots, the rest are next !!!
Interesting comment regarding UK politicians.
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A small point BA have had 10% as the target since the days of Bob Ayling, they have just not achieved it. To meet this figure which is the boast of SQ and Lufty has to highlight if indeed this figure is viable at the current time. Just around the next corner will be the green fuel tax to deal with?
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Word on the street is that we're only £30m away from hitting the 8.5% this year, and the beancounters are desperately trying to find the extra cash from somewhere to trigger the employee bonuses (target for 1 weeks pay is 8.5% this year up from 6% last year, which was acheived).
If you took away the £40m blown because of the ILLEGAL strike, then we'd be well on the way towards the 10% target. Just wait until Willie's cuts have begun to bite and T5 is up and running.
If you took away the £40m blown because of the ILLEGAL strike, then we'd be well on the way towards the 10% target. Just wait until Willie's cuts have begun to bite and T5 is up and running.
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Personally, I don't think we'll strike. Just back from a interesting Canadian slip and the general feeling is that when the crunch comes there won't be the support for a strike. Difficult situation, but one that WW will probably take advantage of. 
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Not so sure about your 8.5%. Nor do I enjoy your confidence with regard to T5. Those that remember the T4 change will know that it will take a number of years to see the real benefits of T5. It is already to small and like the rest of the terminal dumps at LHR will just become a permanent building site. It is reassuring to know Datrkstar had a good time and will not strike.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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Darkstar,
I'm inclined to believe an agreement would be reached before it becomes necessary to strike. However, I'm also prepared to strike if necessary. Just one question for you though:
After you've capitulated and ended up on your Career Average Pension, how long do you think the present structure of twenty-four increasing pay points will last before it is converted to a flat rate?
I'm inclined to believe an agreement would be reached before it becomes necessary to strike. However, I'm also prepared to strike if necessary. Just one question for you though:
After you've capitulated and ended up on your Career Average Pension, how long do you think the present structure of twenty-four increasing pay points will last before it is converted to a flat rate?
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Downroute last week out of 20+ pilots I spoke to over a beer a twelve all were ready to strike over this issue.Having spoken to cabin crew and 3 friends in engineering WW may be taking on one big fight.If he wins he will be the hero of the shareholders who will get their extra divi ,if he lose's he could be a very short term CEO.
WTDWL.
WTDWL.
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After you've capitulated and ended up on your Career Average Pension, how long do you think the present structure of twenty-four increasing pay points will last before it is converted to a flat rate?
Of course there is the point on whom gets promoted first to command, but other airlines cope. Why not BA?
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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...but moving away from the airline will no longer be so penalising.