BA pilots 'prepared to strike'?

[fiftyfour]

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'

There is also another very small group who are also very concerned. All pilots who were 'unfairly dismissed' (ie made redundant by BA, which ignored the Dan Air seniority list when selecting for redundancy) now have a preserved pension with the BA NAPS pension scheme.
BA paid £1 to buy DA. At the time there was a £17 million surplus in the DA pilots pension scheme. This sum was originally transfered direct to BA profit/loss account. After Balpa negotiation, it was eventually agreed that £8 million would be used to upgrade pension accrued to date by 10% for those being made redundant (or more correctly - illegally unfairly dismissed as subsequently ruled by an industrial court two years later). Some of that £8 million was also used to pay for early retirement for some older captains.

However, £9million stayed in the BA kitty.

I simply mention this to show others out there the lack of ethics in the way BA is run. I advise BA pilots to fight for this cause. I think they will get a lot of support from the rest of us.

[millerscourt]

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'

BananasBananas Hang on old chap. You have recently joined SQ Cargo from RBA and you are now waxing lyrical all things SQ. Yet over the past few years SQ have reduced T & C's and there is nothing you or I as ex-pats can do about it. Look what LKY did to poor Capt Ryan Goh a Malaysian who was a Singapore PR and was sacked because he dared to put his ahead above the parapet.

PS Despite my advice to you not to live in JB you tried it and returned to Singapore

PPS What support can you give those in BA?

[N Arslow]

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'

Dear Nigels,
Please protect your pension. You are supposedly at the top of the British pilot food chain. When your Ts and Cs erode the knock on effect affects us all lower down.
The message should be the pilot works hard with safety and responsibility his primary concern. He has a fair pension signed up to on joining the company. If the company can not support it (although it can be proved that it can by the sounds of things) then shouldn't those managers whose responsibility it is to run the company be having their bonuses stopped/reduced. They afterall, receieve salaries - bonuses should be performance not attendance based!
Not a BA problem alone - a problem of the free market - however it need not be so terribly skewed.

[PAXboy]

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'

(still an outsider) Thank you for the further clarification of the reasons for the strength of feeling. I should make it clear that I sincerely hope that you win this battle. Having watched British 'management' at too close quarters since 1978, I too would like to see a line drawn in the sand.

I reckon that the key component of the argument that the general public do nt understand is 'seniority'. In almost all other (98%?) of British companies and institutions, this no longer exists and the City boys (I use the word 'boys' deliberately ) will never have heard of it.

That link between seniority and being handcuffed to the list and not just being able to change company is NOT understood outside the airline world. Also, my guess is that, the LCCs do not operate a list as they have an essentially flat structure being one fleet and one collection of routes?

I only know about seniority as I come from a flying family and, of course, reading PPRuNe for some years. So, if you can get that message across in a concise and consistent manner - you stand a chance.

[Shagtastic]

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'

Headlines - 'BA crews join easyJet pilots on strike'...


Has a long overdue ring to it doesn't it.

[egbt]

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'

Overstress

PPL and BA gold card holder (many times) here.

Public perception will be changed.

Sorry old chap, many of us have had our pensions screwed up (Including my RAF and several company pensions), there may be sympathy for BA Pilots if the worst comes to the worst, but I don’t think there will be support.

P.S. Flying Cathay next week as BA £1k more expensive like for like, being ethically minded triple miles can’t compete with that. Food for thought?

[EditorASC]

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'

Originally Posted by overstress

The whole point about our industry is that the seniority system means we just cannot up sticks and go somewhere else - we've done that already to get into BA.

Did it ever occur to you that the union bosses engineered it that way, so that you would be eternally dependent upon them, so they could forever keep their hand in your pocket?

If you could market your experience and skills, in the same Free-Market way that employees in other industries do, you could be master of your own fate, and slave to no unions or their bosses.

In the United States, union membership peaked at almost 35% of the working population in the mid-1950s. It has been dropping ever since, in the private sector. Today, it is just under 8%.

At the same time that union membership was declining in the U.S., the Great American Middle Class was growing, expanding and become ever more wealthy. That means there is an inverse correlation between union membership, and the standard of living, in the U.S. That should tell you something about how valuable unions really are, in the long run.

In the long run, unions don't create and protect jobs; they destroy them.

Robert J. Boser

[Airbubba]

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'

Uh, just for context, brother Boser crossed the United picket line in 1985, his employee number was 32909...

[EditorASC]

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'

Originally Posted by Airbubba

Uh, just for context, brother Boser crossed the United picket line in 1985, his employee number was 32909...

I continued to work in my job with United Airlines. Dick Ferris, with the aid of pilots like me, kept the paychecks coming to all the other employees of United (including all the union mechanics, none of which honored the ALPA extortion line), so that those employees could continue to pay their mortgages, to keep a roof over the heads of their children, and food on the table for their families. If Roger Hall, Dubinsky et. al. had their way, all those loyal employees would have been tossed out on the street.

ALPA and APA are among the most greedy, heartless, and selfish bunch of extortionists that reside on this planet. They don't give a damn about the damage they cause others, in their quest for killing the golden goose which was laying the eggs for all employees.

The great AMR pilot sick-out, was just another example of that total lack of concern for anyone but themselves.

Robert J. Boser

[Suvarnabhumi]

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'

I don't think the BA Pilots will go on strike.

I don't think WW will rob the Pilots pensions.

What he will do though is ask for THE WORLD in working condition changes, allowances "restructuring", SCOPE agreements etc etc, in a nasty, protracted, and ugly scrap.

He is playing a tried and trusted game of hardball and the pilots will eventually give him HALF the WORLD (what he really only wants) in order to prevent BA meltdown. Classic WW tactic.

The senior guys want their full pension guarranteed and will only have 10 years or so left of poor working conditions. (besides they are senior enough anyway to avoid the crap)

The scared junior guys are on a new pension scheme anyway, won't be happy at all about the working condition changes, and will probably vote to shaft the senior guys. They won't shaft themselves or go out on strike to protect the pension of those who shafted them with the terrible new pension scheme. The ones who are in a lose/lose scenario are those in the middle of the seniority list.

The Pilots will be split 49/51 and give WW what he really wants, the optimum result for BA. Unprecendented massive cost / crewing savings to bring you in line with your main future competitors Emirates, Virgin, Etihad, BMI, Qatar, Kingfisher etc. WW will divide and conquer the BA Pilots and make them PAY through working condition changes for the pension that SOME of them are already owed!!!!

Do you think all those 777-300ER's will come with crew rest facilities etc???

Do you think you'll still be flying with Heavy crews? Decent time off downroute, nice hotels, allowances etc etc, speak to any Emirates crew and you'll soon get an idea of what can be changed!!

He's done it before and he'll do it again. He knows Pilots, he is a Pilot. He'll stop at nothing. The only answer?? 100% complete Pilot unity, but I think the damage may already have been done.

[Roman]

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'

EditorASC, you've hit the nail on the head about seniority. I can't see why pilots are so wedded to this bizarre system, other than that they have swallowed the line that it is the only possible way to organise their lworking lives. As you suspect there is a hint of union self interest there, as being tied to an employer will usually lead to dissatisfaction at some point which in other professions can simply be solved by looking for a better job elsewhere, but in the airline context means a resort to union protection. Increased job mobility - the free market in jobs and services - is what powers our economy and leads to a better standard of living all round, as well as for individuals who want to change their circumstances, and I can't see flying being left out of the market for much longer. It is a special job, but essentially not that different from a number of others. Sure it would take some adjustment and some very good management, but it needs to come.

[yamaha]

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'

Thanks Robert J Boser but I don't need your perverted sense of justice.

You may well have kept food on a few tables but your support and in fact the disgraceful American way of protecting finished un economical airlines removes food from tables world wide.

America needs to urgently wake up to the fact that your economical values are not necessarily welcomed elsewhere.

Once you have actively taken part in shutting down airlines that are in fact stealing business from economically sound ones please come back and comment.

[Da Dog]

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'

EGBT, flight to HKG for the next 6 weeks full to the brim, perhaps thats why its 1K more to fly with BA

[jerrystinger]

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'

Why do people fail to see that the airline world is NOT what it used to be and that it will become even more low cost - even longhaul. It doesn't take a genius to realise that cheap flights (£238 to JFk with BA) are not compatible with the current (flight and cabin) crew pay! Whether its pensions or allowances/agreements WW knows something WILL give!

The future's bright......for WW!

[Hand Solo]

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'

The senior guys want their full pension guarranteed and will only have 10 years or so left of poor working conditions. (besides they are senior enough anyway to avoid the crap)

Error 1: Most long haul pilots are already approaching the 900 hr limit. WW can't get any more productivity, all he can do is try to replace the Bidline rostering system with Carmen. Then the senior guys have the most to lose because they'll start getting the crap they can dodge at the moment.

The Pilots will be split 49/51 and give WW what he really wants, the optimum result for BA

Error 2: Even with the all senior guys on the oldest pension and all the junior guys on the newest pension voting together, they still represent less than a third of all BA pilots.

Unprecendented massive cost / crewing savings to bring you in line with your main future competitors Emirates, Virgin, Etihad, BMI, Qatar, Kingfisher etc

Error 3:If you want to lower my work levels to the level of Virgin (750 hourds per year, any extra on overtime) I'd be quite happy.

Do you think all those 777-300ER's will come with crew rest facilities etc???

Error 4:If they want to use them on ER routes they'll have to so says the CAA.

Do you think you'll still be flying with Heavy crews?

Error 5: You can't fly long range without heavy crews, unless willy thinks he can change the flight time limitations too.

[ojs]

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'

Originally Posted by jerrystinger

Why do people fail to see that the airline world is NOT what it used to be and that it will become even more low cost - even longhaul. It doesn't take a genius to realise that cheap flights (£238 to JFk with BA) are not compatible with the current (flight and cabin) crew pay! Whether its pensions or allowances/agreements WW knows something WILL give!
The future's bright......for WW!

While on the one hand I agree that BA should pay the pension that was agreed, on the other I can see that BA simply can't afford to pay its dues.

It's often said that BA has sufficient cash reserves to cover the debt in one payment, but my understanding is that the cash reserve was not built up to pay off debt. So all that money's simply not available to use.

The other claim I hear is that managers are only thinking of their bonuses in trying to come to a negotiated settlement. But surely if there is a reduction in pension, then those same managers would be affected as well?

[Human Factor]

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'

It's often said that BA has sufficient cash reserves to cover the debt in one payment, but my understanding is that the cash reserve was not built up to pay off debt. So all that money's simply not available to use.

BA has been paying off other debt at the rate of £1bn per year for the past few whilst at the same time making more profit than any other airline and accumulating the cash reserves you state. On that basis, they can pay off the pension debt totally in a year without touching the cash reserve and whilst still making significant profits.

A debt is a debt. Why should the pension debt be considered differently to any other debt?

The other claim I hear is that managers are only thinking of their bonuses in trying to come to a negotiated settlement. But surely if there is a reduction in pension, then those same managers would be affected as well?

Many of the senior managers have already reached the government's pension cap therefore their pensions won't be significantly affected, if at all. The only way they can be rewarded for company performance is in the form of bonuses. According to the published accounts last year, the maximum bonus which can be awarded is 250% of salary.

[M.Mouse]

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'

It is a special job, but essentially not that different from a number of others. Sure it would take some adjustment and some very good management, but it needs to come.

I don't intend to divert this discussion into one of seniority but the thing people do not appreciate is that we all (generally) hold the same licence and are tested bi-annually to the same level. The the only thing that differentiates us is time served and therefore experience.
How to you promote one pilot to Captain when both have the same qualifications and experience?
I smiled when I saw the quote above mentioniong 'good management'!

http://www.befairba.org/

[issi noho]

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'

Its only a month since you were singing Willie's praises for taking out 600 managers in the 'willie swings his axe thread'. Don't know why you didn't see this coming - reactions like lightning. You need to win this as its just the thin end of the wedge.

This is surely a court battle over contracts not a strike. you're playing into his hands - he wants shot of the people who cost him most. You will give him the excuse to take you on in a fight he will have prepared for and you have not. You can hint at the cards in your hand but don't bring out big trumps till you have to.

Don't be fooled into believing you're irreplaceable, no element within a company is bigger than the company itself. eg US air traffic controllers under Reagan, some Aussie pilots still carry a list of strike breakers.

There are people in the wings who will accept your jobs on terms lower than yours but better than they're on, they're rated on the types you fly, they have TRE's, they can do your work and they are sitting in jobs at home and around the globe waiting for it. They would be here in a heartbeat.

There are going to be plenty of companies messing with final salary pensions over the coming years; 40%-60% of companies depending on which research you follow. There needs to be a counter attack in the courts, it is the only way. You will not have public support for a strike, even over pensions, you may do one day but not yet, more companies have to act, more people need to be affected before a general strike could work.

Don't believe the public remember Robert Maxwell either, the public is made up largely of people who don't know what the daily mirror is let alone who spent its pension fund. There are not enough of the DM pension fund losers left and I doubt they have a voice even in the paper they once produced. The press is largely quiet following Rentokil's action, probably because these big media companies are going to do the very same thing in the fullness of time - it's economics and demographics.

Good luck, I know there is an element within BA that think criticism by the non-BA amongst us make us anti-BA but it isn't always true. We need you to win or there will be little hope of retaining any sensible level of conditions in the companies where we ply our trade. To be honest your battle is uphill all the way so do it right, you only have one go at this approach it must be successful.

[Airbubba]

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'

>> some Aussie pilots still carry a list of strike breakers.

Sadly, AFAP never went on strike, the union convinced the pilots to resign en masse, and the rest is history scattered throughout the expat world...

Like you said, don't be fooled into thinking that you are irreplaceable, especially in this job market.