BA pilots 'prepared to strike'?
Join Date: May 2002
Location: LGW - Hub of the Universe!
Posts: 978
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good Luck to ya, pilots!!!
I wish our ground staff unions were as strong-willed but with lasy years's Gate Gourmet fiasco, they've now lost 90% of their power!!!
Our Pensions are a DEBT - in exactly the same way as we have to pay for leasing our aeroplanes and pay for catering and fuelling, the company owes us the deficit in our pension! BA was entrusted with the job of managing our pension fund - it didn't do a good enough job so it's BA and no-one else that is responsible!!!
It's interesting to note that Continental recently sold its share of COPA airlines and ploughed the US$ 50 million into its pension fund because CO sees it as a contractual duty to make good the black hole in its fund! Why hasn't BA done that with the proceeds from "Go" and, more recently "Mr London Eye"???
The only reservation I have is that every situation we have had in the last 10 years involving industrial unrest has ended up with the employees being shafted!!!
.....BUT I DO WANT MY PENSION SALVAGED!!!!
I wish our ground staff unions were as strong-willed but with lasy years's Gate Gourmet fiasco, they've now lost 90% of their power!!!
Our Pensions are a DEBT - in exactly the same way as we have to pay for leasing our aeroplanes and pay for catering and fuelling, the company owes us the deficit in our pension! BA was entrusted with the job of managing our pension fund - it didn't do a good enough job so it's BA and no-one else that is responsible!!!
It's interesting to note that Continental recently sold its share of COPA airlines and ploughed the US$ 50 million into its pension fund because CO sees it as a contractual duty to make good the black hole in its fund! Why hasn't BA done that with the proceeds from "Go" and, more recently "Mr London Eye"???
The only reservation I have is that every situation we have had in the last 10 years involving industrial unrest has ended up with the employees being shafted!!!
.....BUT I DO WANT MY PENSION SALVAGED!!!!
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Blueprint
In reply to Norodnik.
I think the reality is just sinking in with BA. Your Q1 gave the answer that is causing BA the problem. They can not get out of that financial hole, whilst trading as BA. I do not think that doomsday situation is at all likely, so what can they do?
They can negotiate future terms but not the past. That is what your reps are elected to do. I have several thoughts on the way ahead but I have no intention of helping W/W on this open forum.
An employer needs the goodwill of its staff, this it will not get unless it acts in a reasonable manner.
My son works for bmi and they have recently changed their pension arrangements, (sucessfully I believe). I do not believe their deficit is so dire as BA's but then a company (BA) which takes a long term pension holiday, plays "ducks & drakes", on setting up NAPS needs to realise where the blame lies. If you failed to pay your mortgage for a number of years, you would soon get into major financial difficulties.
So yes, all have to move forward, but that does not mean that the staff have to be shafted. If they are then the airline will have major long term trouble.
I think the reality is just sinking in with BA. Your Q1 gave the answer that is causing BA the problem. They can not get out of that financial hole, whilst trading as BA. I do not think that doomsday situation is at all likely, so what can they do?
They can negotiate future terms but not the past. That is what your reps are elected to do. I have several thoughts on the way ahead but I have no intention of helping W/W on this open forum.
An employer needs the goodwill of its staff, this it will not get unless it acts in a reasonable manner.
My son works for bmi and they have recently changed their pension arrangements, (sucessfully I believe). I do not believe their deficit is so dire as BA's but then a company (BA) which takes a long term pension holiday, plays "ducks & drakes", on setting up NAPS needs to realise where the blame lies. If you failed to pay your mortgage for a number of years, you would soon get into major financial difficulties.
So yes, all have to move forward, but that does not mean that the staff have to be shafted. If they are then the airline will have major long term trouble.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: LGW - Hub of the Universe!
Posts: 978
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Under a Log
Posts: 264
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From
http://today.reuters.co.uk/Investing...IRLINES-BA.xml
LONDON (Reuters) - British Airways, Europe's third-largest airline, said on Friday third-quarter operating profit rose 29 percent, ahead of expectations, after strong passenger numbers helped offset rising fuel bills.
The airline (BAY.L: Quote, Profile, Research) slightly raised its revenue forecast but warned costs would be higher than expected and reported lower average passenger fares in the quarter as it discounted seats to keep planes full.
"The results are slightly above consensus but on the other hand there are some not too good things in it," BNP Paribas analyst Nick van den Brul said, pointing to falling yields and costs.
Operating profit for the three months to end-December was 175 million pounds, compared to 136 million pounds a year ago.
Analysts had expected the airline to post an operating profit of 164 million pounds, according to the average from a poll of eight analysts by Reuters.
BA said pretax earnings were 164 million pounds compared to 151 million pounds a year ago.
A recovery in first and business class, or premium, traffic and new international routes to India and Shanghai helped BA keep planes full, while ticket prices stabilised in the period.
Passenger yields -- or average passenger fares -- fell 1.5 percent in the quarter but were expected to be slightly higher for the year, BA said. It forecast 8 percent revenue growth for the current year compared to a previous forecasts of 6-7 percent.
"Despite the improved revenue outlook, market conditions remain broadly unchanged as significant promotional activity is required to maintain seat factors," Chairman Martin Broughton said in a statement.
However, costs excluding fuel would be one percent higher than earlier forecasts, Broughton said. Labour costs are rising due to higher pension contributions and the one-off cost of a cut in senior management jobs at the carrier.
BA also reported a 3.3 rise in January passenger traffic.
http://today.reuters.co.uk/Investing...IRLINES-BA.xml
LONDON (Reuters) - British Airways, Europe's third-largest airline, said on Friday third-quarter operating profit rose 29 percent, ahead of expectations, after strong passenger numbers helped offset rising fuel bills.
The airline (BAY.L: Quote, Profile, Research) slightly raised its revenue forecast but warned costs would be higher than expected and reported lower average passenger fares in the quarter as it discounted seats to keep planes full.
"The results are slightly above consensus but on the other hand there are some not too good things in it," BNP Paribas analyst Nick van den Brul said, pointing to falling yields and costs.
Operating profit for the three months to end-December was 175 million pounds, compared to 136 million pounds a year ago.
Analysts had expected the airline to post an operating profit of 164 million pounds, according to the average from a poll of eight analysts by Reuters.
BA said pretax earnings were 164 million pounds compared to 151 million pounds a year ago.
A recovery in first and business class, or premium, traffic and new international routes to India and Shanghai helped BA keep planes full, while ticket prices stabilised in the period.
Passenger yields -- or average passenger fares -- fell 1.5 percent in the quarter but were expected to be slightly higher for the year, BA said. It forecast 8 percent revenue growth for the current year compared to a previous forecasts of 6-7 percent.
"Despite the improved revenue outlook, market conditions remain broadly unchanged as significant promotional activity is required to maintain seat factors," Chairman Martin Broughton said in a statement.
However, costs excluding fuel would be one percent higher than earlier forecasts, Broughton said. Labour costs are rising due to higher pension contributions and the one-off cost of a cut in senior management jobs at the carrier.
BA also reported a 3.3 rise in January passenger traffic.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: down-route
Posts: 413
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Labour costs are rising ... one-off cost of a cut in senior management jobs.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: London
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lots of questions about pension strikes from the city on the BA webcast today at 2pm.
WW set a positive tone saying he didn't expect industrial action and was confident of reaching agreement, all staff now aware that change is needed!
WW expects agreement on pensions post March before the Acturial Valuation is published Sept/Oct. Interestingly someone on the Board commented that the valuation might be delayed. This is not legally possible unless there are extenuating circumstances, I presume (retirement legislation/strike?).
Also the employee bonus has not been factored into this years figures unlike last. Any significance to this I wonder?
All in all WW gave the city a positive and frank report. Must be reassuring standing there with good financial figures achieved through the hard work of your professional and safe pilots and other hard working employees. Would be awful if there was a loss of confidence by the work force and the figures started turning red.
WW set a positive tone saying he didn't expect industrial action and was confident of reaching agreement, all staff now aware that change is needed!
WW expects agreement on pensions post March before the Acturial Valuation is published Sept/Oct. Interestingly someone on the Board commented that the valuation might be delayed. This is not legally possible unless there are extenuating circumstances, I presume (retirement legislation/strike?).
Also the employee bonus has not been factored into this years figures unlike last. Any significance to this I wonder?
All in all WW gave the city a positive and frank report. Must be reassuring standing there with good financial figures achieved through the hard work of your professional and safe pilots and other hard working employees. Would be awful if there was a loss of confidence by the work force and the figures started turning red.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,608
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One thing missing from the above posts is that debt has been reduced by £744M since the beginning of the year
Equally you could argue that £x has been spent on fuel, but that too is central to the operation.
The key to the argument that it is deferred pay and - irrelevant of whether or not BA management could foresee the eventual cost to them with rising lifespans and lowering interest rates - it has been fairly promised and negotiated by past pay settlements.
Although I take issue with the many misleading arguments presented in this and other threads, such as the fact that many of the younger generation do not have the pensions that NAPS offers and that it is protected behind a unionised negotiation which impacts upon the competitive edge of the company - it is still something that was willingly promised from 1981 until around 2003 when it closed to new members, and therefore must be settled by negotiation taking into account the fact that it was not only promised, but many, through being locked into seniority, have planned their retirement upon those contractual promises.
Last edited by Re-Heat; 5th Feb 2006 at 16:44.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: UK
Age: 44
Posts: 251
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unfortunately for you Fly747, BA 1 has to go bust before BA 2 can start. Once BA 2 starts, they will have to recruit most of the pilots from BA 1 (about a third of UK airline pilots), who are all current and type-rated. Admittedly, the terms will be marginally worse than those offered by BA 1, and with a DC pension, but that is the gamble we are taking.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: London
Age: 67
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Usual management spin
According to the BBC :
By my reckoning 14,000 is about 33% of the workforce. I believe there were fewer than 4000 responses to the MORI poll. It would be quite nice to see the survey questions and responses published. Doesn't sound like an overwhelming majority in favour of cutting their own benefits to provide lovely management benefits.
I know BA aren't alone in this but it's a bit sad that our management can't think of anything more creative than cutting staff costs to boost profits. Although costs are plainly an issue perhaps something radical like selling more tickets might help.
Yup, I'm with you guys. Lets hope our ground staff unions are a bit less supine than usual.
During this exercise, 14,000 BA staff have attended around 900 briefing sessions. A recent MORI poll showed that more than half of them agreed the deficit was a threat to the airline's survival, while two-thirds thought the scheme needed to be changed.
I know BA aren't alone in this but it's a bit sad that our management can't think of anything more creative than cutting staff costs to boost profits. Although costs are plainly an issue perhaps something radical like selling more tickets might help.
Yup, I'm with you guys. Lets hope our ground staff unions are a bit less supine than usual.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It shows very poor management by the airline and the pension trustees to allow any deficit at all. The hole, which first started to appear many years ago and is now getting bigger due to some external factors, should have been tackled immediately.
Money, once in the pension fund receives very favourable tax treatment. So, the name of the game is to keep on top of the liabilities. Defering payments to future years just means that the money has to be earned from the business, various taxes paid and then what's left (if any) paid into the scheme.
The recent 'Economist' has an article describing how the clever companies actually slightly overfund their pension schemes because it is good from a tax management point of view. Of course this all assumes that the company accepts that it has a liability to pay pensions as promised - and BA I suspect doesn't actually believe it has a debt they have to honour.There are limits (from a tax saving point of view) to how much a scheme is allowed to be overfunded (I think only about 5%). Indeed this is one reason why so many schemes that were in surplus during the 90s had pension holidays. The government was happy to tax the surplus at the time, but now is not interested in giving any relief/assistance when assets are below 95% of liabilities. In fact all the government has done is to compound the problems by not allowing dividend relief and by bringing in onerous regulation and supervision.
In short, BA needs to face up to its responsibilities for pensions accrued to date. As for future accrual rates for the existing scheme - well that should be for negotiation and the pilots will have to do/give their bit to get an acceptable solution.
Money, once in the pension fund receives very favourable tax treatment. So, the name of the game is to keep on top of the liabilities. Defering payments to future years just means that the money has to be earned from the business, various taxes paid and then what's left (if any) paid into the scheme.
The recent 'Economist' has an article describing how the clever companies actually slightly overfund their pension schemes because it is good from a tax management point of view. Of course this all assumes that the company accepts that it has a liability to pay pensions as promised - and BA I suspect doesn't actually believe it has a debt they have to honour.There are limits (from a tax saving point of view) to how much a scheme is allowed to be overfunded (I think only about 5%). Indeed this is one reason why so many schemes that were in surplus during the 90s had pension holidays. The government was happy to tax the surplus at the time, but now is not interested in giving any relief/assistance when assets are below 95% of liabilities. In fact all the government has done is to compound the problems by not allowing dividend relief and by bringing in onerous regulation and supervision.
In short, BA needs to face up to its responsibilities for pensions accrued to date. As for future accrual rates for the existing scheme - well that should be for negotiation and the pilots will have to do/give their bit to get an acceptable solution.
Last edited by fiftyfour; 11th Feb 2006 at 11:27.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Strood, Kent
Posts: 731
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by fiftyfour
The government was happy to tax the surplus at the time, but now is not interested in giving any relief/assistance when assets are below 95% of liabilities. In fact all the government has done is to compound the problems by not allowing dividend relief and by bringing in onerous regulation and supervision.
It doesn't look as if Gordon Brown will ever be Prime Minister after all!
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: u.k.
Age: 73
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
B.A.strike action
L&G
please please go on strike and screw the wonderfull over paid B A managers and dare I say "cabin crew". After 32 years in Bloody Awfull ( I joke )the only people who win are the BALPA reps.Where is wonder boy Rob Hall ? Still in his new management role !!
Look at BALPA history they all move into Ayling island. Go for it Nigels.
p.s. no I dont have a huge pen...................................................
please please go on strike and screw the wonderfull over paid B A managers and dare I say "cabin crew". After 32 years in Bloody Awfull ( I joke )the only people who win are the BALPA reps.Where is wonder boy Rob Hall ? Still in his new management role !!
Look at BALPA history they all move into Ayling island. Go for it Nigels.
p.s. no I dont have a huge pen...................................................
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 516
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You BA people really crack me up.
To say that 20% of pilots in NAPS will leave if the pension is touched is just plain sh1te.
Where will you go? To all the other airlines that offer ridiculously large and unsustainable pensions?
I think you will find that NOT A SINGLE AIRLINE in the UK offers a final salary scheme for new joiners from day one anymore.
Add to that, wages are lower in just about every other airline in the UK than BA's wages.
You lot are just not facing the realities..... you need to meet BA in the middle. i.e much higher contributions from the employee to guarantee a final salary pension.
I expect to have to do something similar in my final salary scheme in the not too distant future..........unfortunate but true and perhaps realistic.
Don't kill the goose that laid the golden egg..............
To say that 20% of pilots in NAPS will leave if the pension is touched is just plain sh1te.
Where will you go? To all the other airlines that offer ridiculously large and unsustainable pensions?
I think you will find that NOT A SINGLE AIRLINE in the UK offers a final salary scheme for new joiners from day one anymore.
Add to that, wages are lower in just about every other airline in the UK than BA's wages.
You lot are just not facing the realities..... you need to meet BA in the middle. i.e much higher contributions from the employee to guarantee a final salary pension.
I expect to have to do something similar in my final salary scheme in the not too distant future..........unfortunate but true and perhaps realistic.
Don't kill the goose that laid the golden egg..............