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Lionair plane down in Bali.

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Lionair plane down in Bali.

Old 13th Apr 2013, 21:11
  #161 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FIRESYSOK
Reminds me of the Turkish Airlines accident, with more forgiving circumstances. I'm surprised no-one has brought this up.
I'm surprised too. First thing I thought of was the Amsterdam accident and the RADALT problem. A possibility here?
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 21:15
  #162 (permalink)  
 
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Aircraft are design and certified not to crash, what happens if they do, is varriable as heck.
This is true to some extent, but it is worth noting that a significant portion of FAR Part 25 is devoted to requiring engineering attention to make them crash successfully. For example, in this instance:
  1. The engines appear to have separated from the wing without destruction of the front spar, rear spar, and the upper and lower skins. The wing tanks were not broken open, and the airframe maintained some buoyancy.
  2. The passenger seats were mounted to the tracks with sufficient strength to hold the occupants in place under crash G loads.
  3. Likewise the galleys, and other heavy equipment items did not separate from their fittings and tumble over cabin occupants.
  4. Slide/rafts appear to have deployed, and life vests were in use.
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 21:23
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Time for facts and data?

Time yet for getting the real facts and data before drawing conclusions? lets give them the benefit of the doubt on this one for a while? Can we be sure this event didn't yet have a "Black Swan" component?
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 21:24
  #164 (permalink)  
 
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Oh, and you better add FlyBe/Jet2/Monarch/Thomson/Lufthansa/Emirates...

No, you don't.
Lufthansa will test you, and then you will have to sign a contract, making you liable to pay back for the training, once you get hired. You don't pay back, if you don't get hired within 5 years after completion of your training. There is MPL, but no P2F at all.
And with MPL, I was very doubtful. But now I get a lot of new FOs, with MPL liscences, and they do leave the Sim with more than 100h on type, undergo a linetraining of more than 100 sectors with checkpilots. All after a thorough training in LH flight academy.
They of course have no experience, but what on earth would change that? Time would.
Also working for a regional subsidary of LH, I have flown withlots of new FOs with a background of many hours of small aircraft flying (like Cessnas on minor routes to the Islands in the northern sea). Actually I found them performig worse in a jet then the cadets. They were expected to get the hang of a jet in minimum time, and just couldn't. And the experience of working in a highly productive environment was nil.

Nic
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 21:30
  #165 (permalink)  
 
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Admiral346, I don't totally agree.
Having experience and many hours (on any SE, ME), is not simply being better in handling a plane but it's about being better in decision making.
A cadet may handle well a jet but very weak in decision making if something suddenly goes wrong.
Flying a plane is just a small part of the job...
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 21:50
  #166 (permalink)  
 
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There have been a lot of incidents in America without any P2F schemes, so I personally don't see why anyone can just blame that. None of the Colgan Q400 people were P2F either, in fact both had thousands of hours tt. Which is strange since that accident led to total time minimum legislation, even though both pilots had far above the mins. It just seems like the easy way out to blame low time pilots instead of a just get on the ground culture, bad maintenance, impatient and authoritarian captains, fatigue and work hours, etc.

Last edited by 413X3; 13th Apr 2013 at 21:51.
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 22:06
  #167 (permalink)  
 
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Indonesian authorities reported the aircraft just had 146 hours / 48 minutes of flying when it crashed. Is this a record?
I can't find a number, but I have vague recollection that the Gimli Glider had less hours than that (and the pilots had double-digit hours on type because it was one of the first 767s). However, it was flying again a couple of days later, so it might not count.
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 22:11
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From 2010:

So, you want to fly Boeing 737's, your looking at “line training” either through CAE or EagleJet. You have read a little online about the schemes and the common gripes. Well here is a little extra information from someone who is currently on the P2F scheme.

Please, before I hear a huge list of complaints on PPRuNe about how paying to fly is worse then selling your soul to the devil; do you really think that people enjoy forking out thousands and thousands to pay to work- don’t be stupid. (Queue gripe about how we are stupid). There are four main groups that are really complaining about this. Firstly, those who have completed flight school, naive enough to think they would get a job with a ME CPL IR. Yes, there are the lucky few straight out of an integrated school who will, but on the whole, and in the current climate, I am sorry your dreams were smashed and your now unemployed with ten’s of thousands of debt and moaning about it online. Grow a pair and get another job while you sit it out. The second group are current pilots, who are worried that these “newbie P2F pilots” are firstly, only in the RHS because they have the money to be there and are not qualified for the job. Rightly so, but we still have to do the same exams and training as every other pilot in that seat. Sure, the experience of flying turbo props for years might not be there, and you might not know the difference between Cat F and G airspace but you won’t find a more enthusiastic or determined F/O. Complaining to us is not going to do anything- speak to your management or unions and refuse to fly with the P2F’s and see what they say. I agree that it is detrimental to flight safety to have a pilot up front who is the better off rather than the better skilled in theory. Your complaints are falling on deaf ears here. Secondly, the other group are current First Officer’s who’s jobs are being “taken” by these pilots, who are not only working for free, but paying the airline to fly for them; or having their terms and conditions eroded because of this. It is awful; I sympathise, but it is the same of any job market. Whether it be car manufacturing being outsourced to China for cheaper labour, the principle is the same; albeit outrageous that it is the case.

So now to Lion Air.

Currently the airline operates around 47 737’s, with 2 or 3 900ER’s being delivered every month in their “controlled expansion plan”. Just as a pointer as to what is to come, the USA FAA and Boeing are more than happy to let the Lion pilots come into the USA to pick up the new aircraft to take them to Indonesia, but Lion Air are never allowed to fly into the USA because the safety and attitude concerns of the Lion Crews, are rightly, blacklisted, and from Europe and America. Indeed, the only way the Lion delivery pilots are evern allowed to fly out of America, is that Boeing “employs” them as pilots working for them in a loop hole in the regulations.

So far this year, Lion Air have had more than 5 runway evacuations. The aircraft do not carry charts/ maps. There are “photo copies” of “photo copies” provided, however, often these are unreadable- would someone from Jeppesen please take note! Even when they are eligible, they are out of date. There are even a couple of instances of Lion Aircraft landing at the wrong airport, or turning up at the airport and landing on the wrong runway.

There is a complete disregard for flight time limitation; one instance of a pilot going more than 160 hours over. Another instance of an ex-pat pilot P2F pilot, when refusing to exceed his 110 hour per calendar month limit, being called more than 5 times by one of the deputy chief pilots (Sooleiman Makartot/ Rio Franky), and eventually being given the ultimatum of flying or being kicked off the “course”.

The regulations governing Indonesian aviation are CASA. I have toilet paper that means more to me than it does to the Lion management. By the way, if you do venture to Indonesia, you will need to carry loo roll with you a lot (along with Jep Charts)….that is if you can find a loo vs. a fly infested hole in the ground, surrounded by an inch of water that has trickled down someone’s backside. Great.

Scheduling is via SMS Text message and an online system called Geneva via their web based crew portal .The online rosta is about 10 percent accurate, it is always revised via SMS as the scheduling is done that night for the following day, so you are on constant standby and can never plan to do anything. I have received texts at 2am and 3am for a flight at 6am to Singapore. I refused, and then, I still would get a bang on the door from the irate driver telling you to hurry up. This happens once or twice a month to most of the expatriate crews that I have spoken too.

Currently there are about 80 expatriate pilots at Lion through CAE and Eagle; Lion plans to have more than 100+ by the end of 2010, as well as opening up their ageing 747-400 aircraft to the Eagle and CAE schemes, flying to their one and only destination, Jeddah. Accommodation is provided for CAE in Harmony Apartments, the Eagle pilots are told about the Harris hotel, and then are expected to find their own feet from there. Being told about the hotel is your indoctrination and introduction to the company and possible the only thing you will hear that makes sense from Ms. Meylda, the secretary to the Head of Flight Operations, “Captain” Filemon- whatever that title means!

Let me, at this point, point out that it is not just the First Officers who are paying to fly, there are indeed Captains on these “courses”. I am still trying to figure out what kind of airline in the world has their Captains and First Officer paying to fly for them! Madness.

You would try to leave knowing this wouldn’t you, if you had been stupid enough to come in the first place! Ha. Lion Air’s MD Rushdi Kirani (excuse the incorrect spelling sir), originally invented the ticketing system and software in use through the whole of Indonesia. He then opened up his own airline, and surprisingly, all the flights at Lion are full…sheer coincidence. Anyway, back to my point about trying to leave. The immigration office has “ties”/ bribe money to stop you leaving at the airport. On entry into Indonesia, you are initially given a tourist visa, and then, on completion of your “ground school” which was sitting in a classroom while the examiner told us the answers, you are then issued with a KITAS and work visa. This is in your passport, along with a “single entry” visa. So, if you want to leave the country now, you can’t, unless you have written permission a month in advance. Now imagine the scenario that a loved one dies, and you need to leave the country. I would almost say imagine leaving the country for a holiday, however, in your contract, holidays are banned, much like freedom of speech is with the gag clause. You are only allowed to leave to renew your licence/ medical.

It is my understanding that Indonesian law forbids working for free and that there is, like in most countries a minimum wage that needs paid. Not so the case with the P2F’s. Rumours, this being PPRuNe, are that the Head of Training is pocketing this small amount of compulsory salary money from over 80 of us now, in collaboration with a certain secretary, to an offshore account in New Zealand…

Back to the flying. All the communication from ground personnel and the majority of the flight attendants is in Bahasa which keeps you in the “loop”- the few that do speak a little English, it is well below standard. The Line training Captains English is good, however when you are released after training, the majority of line captains speak very simple English, indeed, there are a few Captains that do not speak one word of English which makes for an interesting game of Charades while flying a 70 tonne jet at 41,000ft with no map.

NOTAMS and Weather. I am not going to even bother telling you about the token documents you receive, SOMETIMES. Crew briefings. Say what? Best, get yourself a smart phone and check out the weather and Notams on that if you still plan on coming. Many of the places we fly to don’t have internet access, fire cover at the airport, or civilisation. Indeed, flying into Papua I think it was, there was a scantily clad man with a bow and arrow firing it at another scantily clad man with a bow and arrow…on the taxi way.

Lion, trying to maximise profits, as if having the staff paying to work for them was not enough, now aim for a quick turnaround or “fast track”, however, this just results in sometimes violent arguments erupting either between the flight crew, flight attendants, baggage handlers or dispatchers. Someone is getting it and its not pretty. No training was received about this new policy, merely an email (in Bahasa) telling you to, in so many words, haul ass. Since this “new” policy, there have been many incidents; indeed, one of my colleagues had an emergency diversion due to a fire in the cargo hold, whilst another had an explosion on landing.

You would think that, the authorities in Indonesia would do something- but the corruption is so bad that a blind eye is turned to nearly everything that is not white washed or bribed away.

Indeed, I really could go on….for hours about many other aspects of this unsafe and dangerous operation. I just wished to share my experience and hope that others will take heed. I am certain this will not stop the P2F madness from continuing, or will it stop the well heeled ME CPL IR’s from gaining experience in this way. Who is to blame for this situation, I am not sure. This “course” does lead to a job, or advantage over the non jet experienced pilot whether you like it or not, however, next time Mr. Cathay 747 Captain, you say P2F’s have no experience…well…we have stories at least, and surely, as you know it all, you want to have us up front for a giggle or two…certainly, if we survive Lion Air and manage to leave Indonesia, we will be smiling.
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 22:13
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No, you don't.
Lufthansa will test you, and then you will have to sign a contract, making you liable to pay back for the training, once you get hired. You don't pay back, if you don't get hired within 5 years after completion of your training. There is MPL, but no P2F at all.
And with MPL, I was very doubtful. But now I get a lot of new FOs, with MPL liscences, and they do leave the Sim with more than 100h on type, undergo a linetraining of more than 100 sectors with checkpilots. All after a thorough training in LH flight academy.
They of course have no experience, but what on earth would change that? Time would.
Also working for a regional subsidary of LH, I have flown withlots of new FOs with a background of many hours of small aircraft flying (like Cessnas on minor routes to the Islands in the northern sea). Actually I found them performig worse in a jet then the cadets. They were expected to get the hang of a jet in minimum time, and just couldn't. And the experience of working in a highly productive environment was nil.

Nic
You're not seeing what I'm saying. I am not defending P2F, I despite it. I also agree with you on MPL, it's a great way to get new guys in to the RHS in minimum time while teaching them from the ground up about the operation of their respective aircraft. I only wish they'd spend a bit more than 80 hours in an actual airplane, but I digress. What I am saying, in a nutshell, is that training is key for First Officers, not necessarily experience. I will not dispute your claim that you've flown with lower performing FO's @ LH Regional, but I firmly believe that low houred pilots are not a liability (If trained and tested to a certain standard, as seems to be the case in greater Europe). It's a proven concept, and has worked for legacy carriers as well as LCC's for a long time, so long as training is up to standards. It doesn't have to be an MPL, you and I both know that most LH co-pilots are people who graduated from the Lufty Academy with a mere fATPL and went straight in to a jet with 250hrs. We also know that Lufthansa has a great safety record. Same goes with all the airlines I listed above - FR, EZY, BA, TCX, TOM, EK, DY and the list just goes on and on.

Perhaps this is not the thread for this discussion though, because even though I find the fact that Lion Air is a source for the appalling P2F concept, we do not have any facts in hand as is. As another poster noted, even a paranoid can have real enemies.
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 22:16
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Metars I read were severe VMC and light winds. But we must wait to see if thrust was lost causing the landing short of the runway.
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 22:38
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What are you guys going to do, when after the hysteria and misguided speculation dies down it's determined that the low-time inexperienced pilots did a sterling job after their: multiple bird strike / fuel contamination / (insert independent occurrence here) ?
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 22:44
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Originally Posted by 413X3
There have been a lot of incidents in America without any P2F schemes, so I personally don't see why anyone can just blame that. None of the Colgan Q400 people were P2F either, in fact both had thousands of hours tt. Which is strange since that accident led to total time minimum legislation, even though both pilots had far above the mins. It just seems like the easy way out to blame low time pilots instead of a just get on the ground culture, bad maintenance, impatient and authoritarian captains, fatigue and work hours, etc.
As I remember, the captain in the Colgan Buffalo crash, Marvin Renslow, was P2F with Gulfstream. I would say that this allowed an incompetent pilot to end up in control of the Q400. The crash had three major causes:
1. Renslow's apparent lack of knowledge of the Q400 anti-ice system and the implications of setting the REF SPEEDS switch.
2. Failure to report his configuration correctly (anti ice activated) and the resultant incorrect setting of the bug speeds.
3. Incorrect response to the stick shaker which caused the aircraft to stall and crash.

Sounds like an incompetent P2F graduate to me.
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 23:13
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Gear on the reef?

Is that part of the gear sitting on the reef just to the left of the nose ?......

http://ww2.hdnux.com/photos/21/02/35.../3/628x471.jpg
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 23:51
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Originally Posted by Pattern is full
Wind Shear

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

...is certainly not to be ruled out (yet), although the METAR posted earlier showed "NOSIG."
NOSIG means "No Significant Change" from the current conditions, which actually METARs show as CB before and after the ditching time.

Last edited by Capn Bloggs; 13th Apr 2013 at 23:52.
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 23:52
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Colgan?

Marvin and his companion in the right seat, regardless of how they got their seats clearly had no place forward of the hardened flight deck door. They were victims of the industry, warm bodies and bean-counters boxes checked.
BA have a cadet scheme; and also dropped a triple 7 short of 27 and just clear of a gas station in Hatton Cross i recall, and though there were suspicions, getting to the bottom of F/OHE too the AAIB many months, so hold short fellas.
Turkish at AMS? -8 RH feet means you're on the ground, Gear Warning horn at TOD/idle.. 2+2. Systems knowledge is vital.. How on earth do you arrive 200m short in VMC? Kudos to the CC for getting everyone out.
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 23:53
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Doesn't the first P stand for 'Professional' ? So reading this because I am interested in what happened I am informed that I am a reckless fool if I book on EZY. The Millwall supporters at todays game started a fight between themselves. Compare and contrast.
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Old 14th Apr 2013, 00:03
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Mr. Optimistic, let me assure you, as a long time pilot, you can trust a booking on FR or Easy. Been a bit everywhere, got the T shirt, and know what I am talking about.
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Old 14th Apr 2013, 00:10
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Lancer, your comment, at present time, is on the numbers.
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Old 14th Apr 2013, 00:10
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I teach sim in this part of the woods. The number one problem people have is to multiply by 3. If you fly non precision approach, you have to be 300 feet high for each mile from the runway. I know, it sounds like basic. But this is missing these days in airlines. It is considered an advanced stuff. Rwy 09 has only a Vor approach and it leads you to 1050 about 3.5 miles from the runway. Which is ok. But the rest of the road you are on your own. You have to watch papi and your descend rate. And most people forget about the descend rate. If your groundspeed is 140 you have to descend roughly 700 feet per minute.
I think it could have something to do with this accident, but of course, there could be some more factors.
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Old 14th Apr 2013, 00:13
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PBY, can you give me a PM?
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