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Lionair plane down in Bali.

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Lionair plane down in Bali.

Old 14th Apr 2013, 00:17
  #181 (permalink)  
 
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The RAF also have some of the best training in the world, get to select from an already highly self-selecting group, plan every mission like a space shuttle launch, and in many cases have more oversight. It's a ludicrous comparison. As someone said up above, every high time guy used to be a low time guy. And as a guy who used to be a low time guy, I can assure you that the right seat of an airliner is not the place to be learning how to fly.
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Old 14th Apr 2013, 00:27
  #182 (permalink)  
 
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I'm surprised it hasn't already come up on this thread given the amount of P2F bashing but it's been heavily discussed elsewhere on the wannabe's pages, apparently Lion Air introduced an SOP last year that Captain makes all the landings and FO is not allowed to touch the controls below 5000'.

Not that it necessarily makes a difference - when I was in the mid east I flew with with some very high time skippers from Indonesia (and a few other bastions of aviation safety like Liberia and Cameroon ) and some of them were an absolute menace to safety. Just because you've got 10,000 hours flogging thrashed, illegally maintained, overloaded, 1960s vintage cargo Antonovs, doesn't mean you know jack about how to correctly operate a brand new Boeing or 'Bus.

In my turboprop days in the UK I also flew with some green as grass (albeit well trained) 200 hour cadets and they were some of the best pilots I've ever shared a flight deck with. If I had to choose one or the other to land a plane when the sh!t was hitting the fan, it would be no contest.
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Old 14th Apr 2013, 00:51
  #183 (permalink)  
 
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That rather depends on which part of the airframe hit the water first. As mentioned above, the apparently detached horizontal stabilizer might give a clue.
I expect the FDR will show back pressure on the yoke and pitch up at impact with the water.
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Old 14th Apr 2013, 00:58
  #184 (permalink)  
 
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Flew into Bali a few nights ago, we experienced what the locals told us was flash rain storms at this time of year, and we encountered extremely heavy but small localised rain showers on final approach.The reported ATIS weather was nil weather. Thankfully due to the winds we were given an ils on rwy 27- its about time they installed an ils on rwy 09, would not have wanted to do a vor/dme approach in that weather!
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Old 14th Apr 2013, 00:59
  #185 (permalink)  
 
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Anyone know if it would trigger the Egpws (as in the enhanced bit with a terrain database) - or would it likely sneak in the area covered being only maybe a couple of hundred feet low.
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Old 14th Apr 2013, 01:13
  #186 (permalink)  
 
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What professional pilot would ALLOW a serviceable aircraft to land on water well short of the runway in VMC (minima 470')? No-one! Hence I am giving the pilots the benefit of the doubt and say there MUST be some external factor that was the major causal factor. Ie W/shear, whitened papi by salt spray, mechanical failure etc.
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Old 14th Apr 2013, 01:19
  #187 (permalink)  
 
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Terrain clearance floor function is 400' at 5nm to 0' at 0.5nm from the runway end.
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Old 14th Apr 2013, 01:19
  #188 (permalink)  
 
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I expect the FDR will show back pressure on the yoke and pitch up at impact with the water.
Standard procedure, I believe, when landing any aircraft, on water or any other surface...
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Old 14th Apr 2013, 01:23
  #189 (permalink)  
 
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we have learned this lesson before

about a zillion years ago, the ALPA lobied for ILS approaches to all airports/runways served by jets.

There are visual deceptions associated with a rain splattered windshield, and the noise from the wipers is defening. Add to that possible windshear and the way a rain soaked windshield and the ocean below may blend in as one...

It is becoming clear enough that the lack of ILS to this runway, heavy rain (for fans of ''bowfinger'', chubby rain) may be contributing. wonder if they used the RAINBOE.?
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Old 14th Apr 2013, 01:31
  #190 (permalink)  
 
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agree with PBY

I agree with PBY and his views. The very idea of non precision approaches almost demands a few ''aids'' like the 300 feet per nm (closer to 316 feet, but close enough) and the rule of five times your ground speed to give you a 3 degree glideslope descent rate...5x140=700 fpm.

I learned these rules from two of the best...DP Davies and an authhor named WEbb. Their books, "handling the big jets", and "Fly the Wing" should be mandatory for any ''jet pilot''.

the trouble is these books are both over 40 years old and too many modern pilots can't be bothered with the old reliable ways.
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Old 14th Apr 2013, 01:33
  #191 (permalink)  
 
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Flying a plane is just a small part of the job...
It is the 'job'.
Disagree with the second quote, I'm with Greenlight.

'Handling the Hardware" when everything is going as planned, or programmed, can be taught to a monkey ( or a computer / autopilot) being the Captain is something that can't be taught by rote, hopefully one acquires the necessary skills whilst sitting in the right hand seat.

Took me 16 yrs. before I was offered the chance to move left, but even then I hadn't seen some of the events that I had to deal with in the next 20 - with no text book or Company SOP Manual to guide me.

it's called The Loneliness of Command.

Last edited by ExSp33db1rd; 14th Apr 2013 at 01:33.
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Old 14th Apr 2013, 01:39
  #192 (permalink)  
 
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Reports that they declared an emergency suggest that it was not inadvertently flown into the water.
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Old 14th Apr 2013, 01:56
  #193 (permalink)  
 
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Handling the big jets was my bible when I got into jet aircraft. It explained a lot of things that no other aviation manual could. Especially high altitude aerodynamics. Thank god for books like that to learn what you should know as an airline pilot. The airlines won't teach you. I have had our check airmen tell me BS that if they had read that book they would not have said. They do not understand how a lot of things work. I was encouraged to be a check airman once but did not want to be concerned about anybody's cockpit but mine. Fishing on my days off with no concerns about anybody elses flight really appealed to me.
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Old 14th Apr 2013, 02:06
  #194 (permalink)  
 
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Seeing the Lion B737-800 secured by 'ropes' reminds me of the Garuda B737-400 that landed in a river many years ago after both engines flamed out in IMC at altitude. All passengers survived this landing although a junior cabin crew member drowned after she opened a rear exit and jumped out. This a/c was also secured by ropes.

The latest rumour re Lion at DPS is fuel starvation !

Last edited by B772; 14th Apr 2013 at 07:40.
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Old 14th Apr 2013, 02:09
  #195 (permalink)  
 
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Runway

I live in Bali and know the terrain. My understanding from the pictures is that the aircraft was attempting to land on Runway 27 NOT Runway 09. It finished up in the ocean NOT the highway and mangroves at the end of Runway 09. From my understanding of the terrain, the hull is pointing to the WEST with the surf breaks of Kuta Beach clearly visible behind.

AT the time of the accident there were low clouds and light rain in the general vicinity of South Bali but visibility was good.

If I am correct, that suggests that the aircraft overflew the entire length of Runway 27 before landing in the ocean, which raises the question of why the PF did not just go around?

Last edited by philipat; 14th Apr 2013 at 02:15. Reason: Typos
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Old 14th Apr 2013, 02:13
  #196 (permalink)  
 
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How may times does it have to be said

IT WAS LANDING ON 09!!!!

10 pages of this and the experts will be coming up with UFO's as the next excuse.

I'm in Bali and landed 30 mins prior to the accident and have no idea what caused the crash but am more than willing to wait for the facts to come out!

Last edited by ad-astra; 14th Apr 2013 at 02:16.
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Old 14th Apr 2013, 02:17
  #197 (permalink)  
 
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Is there some reason with the metar we don't know which way they were landing? Either they landed short or went off the end. Which way was it?
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Old 14th Apr 2013, 02:17
  #198 (permalink)  
 
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Monday Morning Quarterbacks

If you had the FDR, what is the first thing you would want to know????
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Old 14th Apr 2013, 02:20
  #199 (permalink)  
 
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So 100% they landed short of 09?
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Old 14th Apr 2013, 02:21
  #200 (permalink)  
 
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Just took a stroll down to the airport and no sign of the plane. Plenty of ghouls hanging round the breakwater to the north of the runway possibly hoping for another crash. I can only assume the plane has been towed to the beach at Jimbaren as access is better there for road vehicles. I watched TV last night with the CEO giving a sit down talk to the press and media. Definitely an example of how not to handle a meeting with the press.
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