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Lionair plane down in Bali.

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Lionair plane down in Bali.

Old 13th Apr 2013, 16:25
  #121 (permalink)  
 
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I'm amazed where all you guys got your experience... Guess you were Born with superior airmanship.

Bashing p2f is good if you bash it for the right reasons. Little experience is not a problem! Little skill is the issue which becomes a problem if this barrier can be removed with cash.

We don't know anything about this accident, the first officer might not even be P2F. Just wait for the accident report!
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 16:25
  #122 (permalink)  
 
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Landing Gear position...
In order to keep the structure kind of intact....would it be necessary to retract the landing gear prior to impact ?????
The gear is designed to adsorb much of the impact force, rather than have the force transferred to the people on board.

The same with the break in the fuselage. Although not a designed 'breakaway' point, in breaking it will reduce the energy transferred to the passengers and crew.
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 16:25
  #123 (permalink)  

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BBC World News interviewer just asked an 'expert' if the A/c was 'flying by wire'.

You just couldn't make it up.
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 16:27
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the last picture is nice.
If you use the slide (in the tail section) you go back in the plane right ?
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 16:37
  #125 (permalink)  
 
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P2F or not is not the subject of this accident in particular (maybe).
But IMO, we should talk here or elsewhere, because it's an opportunity (thanks to this accident) to bring up this problem in the same time.
In normal circumstances, nobody cares, even reporters...
Personnally, I just hope that some reporters read PPrune or comments on articles online, and ask themselves "what is P2F ?" ( pilots who pay to fly if any read).
So it is an occasion for us to talk about it when the "ennemy" becomes weaker.
Many of us complain about it, but nobody does action. So at least let's bring up this fact.

Last edited by Greenlights; 13th Apr 2013 at 16:37.
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 16:40
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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Devil VOR 09

Sorry for giving out my thoughts before we know the real reason but:
If you follow the approach track of Lionair on AvHerald you will see it will lead you straight towards the VOR "BLI". And the descend rate on the transponder altitude reading shows a constant descend. I might think it could have been a VOR approach in VNAV with wrong QNH or....
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 16:52
  #127 (permalink)  
 
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Dear God. This is pprune at its very worst. This is supposed to be professional pilots forum and yet again it seems that every idiot who knows absoulutely nothing about aviation is allowed to post. The lunatics truly are running the asylum.

As a genuine retired professional pilot, I will answer one query.

I have met two aviators who were forced to put a four-engined aeroplane into the water on finals. On both occasions the undercarriage was down and the flaps were deployed.

On neither occasion was anyone hurt.
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 17:02
  #128 (permalink)  
 
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I just hope that some reporters read PPRuNe or comments on articles online, and ask themselves "what is P2F ?" ( pilots who pay to fly if any read).
Unfortunately it will just give some rich student journalist an idea on how to get a job.

P2W (Pay to write)

Diseases spread. No profession is safe....
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 17:14
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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JW422:
"I have met two aviators who were forced to put a four-engined aeroplane into the water on finals. On both occasions the undercarriage was down and the flaps were deployed.
And the aircraft was recovered and flew again. But I think JH lost his best blue hat that had just cost him four quid
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 17:29
  #130 (permalink)  
 
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Gear up or down is a pilot decision based on aircraft under some control and time to think and act.

Aircraft are design and certified not to crash, what happens if they do, is varriable as heck. Choose you seat carefully based on gut feeling and old wifs tale.
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 17:30
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Reminds me of the Turkish Airlines accident, with more forgiving circumstances. I'm surprised no-one has brought this up. Perhaps it was just a plain-Jane undershat
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 17:31
  #132 (permalink)  

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Earlier, I referred to an 'expert'.

It transpires he is, indeed, an expert and I have apologised (I didn't know him).
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 17:42
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It will be very interesting reading or hearing what went through the flight deck crews' minds during the final sequence of events. If in fact engine failure did occur, the aircraft would still glide but would very likely hit those unforgiving tetrapods that form the seawall. A conscious decision to ditch, and ditch quickly, seems possible and, IF that does turn out to be the case, it is a decision which will have saved everyone's lives. But I don't suppose those who instantly branded the crew as "crap" will be back to apologise.
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 17:53
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Loss of thrust. Ditching. Slightly higher angle at splashdown than the optimum, rear part of fuselage takes a bit of the force.

If true wonderful effort by the crew. Same ranks as Hudson, BA 777 and RYR at CIA.

Seeing a perfectly good runway ahead and realising you won't make it....

Experience would've been a big factor in this outcome.

Last edited by McBruce; 13th Apr 2013 at 17:55.
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 18:02
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Someone on this thread suggested Lion Air 737 was grounded. that is not the case.
Lion Air operating as usual despite accident | The Jakarta Post
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 18:02
  #136 (permalink)  
 
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if they were 100ft below the glide slope and on a stable 700ft descent and crashed short of the run-way did they have a false capture of a ghost glide slope?
There is no ILS to that runway, therefore no "glide slope". It's a VOR approach that would have been flown in IAN or LNAV/VNAV with a VOR frequency selected in the Nav panels.
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 18:03
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Witness after witness (passengers and ground-based) report the plane "dropped" into the water BEFORE reaching the runway. I.E. - NOT an overrun.

One eyewitness perhaps can be discounted as unreliable or suspect - but when there are multiple witnesses reporting the same thing, it starts to carry a lot of weight. Certainly more weight than the imaginings of a non-witness at a keyboard 1,000s of miles away.

Rumored MAYDAY tends to indicate a loss of thrust without sufficient altitude/energy to make the runway. Think BA38, minus the smooth grass threshold. For doubly good reasons, the captain (along with everyone else) survived, and will be able to tell his tale.

As to WHY there may have been a loss of thrust - bird strike, fuel exhaustion, fuel starvation, internal mx problem, TBD. Likely not fuel ice in the filters, in the tropics in April (but you never know until you check!)

Direction the airplane is pointing after the crash is certainly relevant - but not necessarily a perfect indicator of direction of flight. (and in the pictures, is not aligned with EITHER runway 27 or 09).

If the Hudson had been 6 feet deep and full of coral knobs, Sully might well have ended up pointing back the direction he came, also.

Lion Air's reputation? Maybe a factor, maybe not. "Even a paranoid can have real enemies" - and even a "bad" airline (or a "bad" pilot) can have an accident that isn't its/his/her fault.
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 18:30
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Much discussion of Fuselage rupture/Fracture point

I would guess (small bet) that the main fracture behind the wing is in fact, at one of the "Production Breaks". I.e. one of those points where the various sections of the fuselage (which are now often manufactured in different countries) are "bolted" together during final assembly at (Renton? Showing my age!) or wherever.

Depending upon the aeroplane type or model, there will usually be a production break just aft of cockpit about L1/R1 doors area, one forward and one aft of wing (i.e. centre wingbox) and usually another just near aft doors. These breaks or junctions are default "weak" points and so most likely fracture points in accidents.

The severe tear/crack/ rupture striking through the number 3 of B737 aft of main break is probably just that. A tear or rupture.

Just my two pence worth. (Can't comment on these new fangled composite material hulls!)

SB

Last edited by Starbear; 13th Apr 2013 at 18:33.
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 18:43
  #139 (permalink)  
 
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Facts?..

As a commercial pilot I have, by the shortsightedness of others been forced to post this:

1: some posted: lion air is the cause of half the worlds 737 crashes. Factually not true and I am surprised no one has countered this. Look up Wikipedia or any other site on the history of 737 crashes, and you'll find that Lion air has crashed 2 737. One 737-400 and one today. No counting tail strikes as crashes. Because we are also not counting the gear collapses for example of other airlines. Crashes are crashes and not incidents. If you wanna count those start a new form.

2: the whole talk about pilots not being qualified... Less than 200 hours. Well I am equally stupefied that no one realizes that Most major airlines have their own flight school, and actually hire cadets straight into their airline after flight school with 0 ours. Your more likely to find a cadet at a major than at a private company. So your trying to tell me that all major airlines are at huuuuuuge risks cause they hire graduates from their own flight school???.??

3: Yes there is a pay to fly scheme at Lion Air. But equally at Ryan Air where pilot have to pay for they're own uniforms, food etc. Air Maroc (the national airline of morocco) is equally involved in these schemes, baltic air and many other airlines. Are they causing half the worlds 737 crashes cause of that? No.......

So what's the issue here? Too many people talking about something they know too little about. This situation is complicated, and many factors together have led to this accident as with every other In aviation.

Weather or not pay to fly is right is not e issue here. These pilots all hold a (European Commercial Pilot license) for the most as they are european expats, they have all passed a type rating in Europe, and fulfilled the Lion Air simulator examination and ground school as well. Last year, 32 cadets who passed the European type rating, failed the lion air sim check and where sent home. (This is factual)

It is the easy way out to blame a scheme on this. If the pilots made mistakes, the investigation will say so. But I don't believe you are a lessor pilot cause you found a way in!

When a plane crashed into the Hudson cause of birds, they were heroes cause everyone survived. When a plane crashed short of the runway cause of wind-shear (the airplane did not overrun, the fell short of) and everyone survived, the pilots aren't heroes? How biased can you be?

Keep an open mind an opinion till the investigation shows!
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 18:43
  #140 (permalink)  
 
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Cool

Hi,

Now I understand why Lionair has this great Airbus command
At the pace they break their planes .. they need a large number in store

Last edited by jcjeant; 13th Apr 2013 at 18:46.
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