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Lionair plane down in Bali.

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Lionair plane down in Bali.

Old 14th Apr 2013, 07:34
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Old 14th Apr 2013, 07:44
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I dunno, that looks pretty complex.
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Old 14th Apr 2013, 08:15
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Originally Posted by framer
Is it true that the f/o can't be PF below 5000ft? I find that insane.
Yes, I believe that is the case with Lion Air which came into effect sometime last year due to a number of incidents with tail srtikes. There was a thread on that in the South East Asia forum. So the P2Fs are only paying to fly above 5000 ft which is really not much effort with A/P engaged.

http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far...-air-f-os.html

The WADD 09 VOR approach has an inbound course of 091, but it's actually off set by 5 degrees to the left of runway centerline. If you become visual just before the missed approach point, you still need to manoevure 2 DME from the threshold to line up with the runway centreline ... runway 09 has a track of 086 if I remember correctly.

Last edited by training wheels; 14th Apr 2013 at 08:42. Reason: add link
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Old 14th Apr 2013, 08:15
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P2F

The impact on safety from P2F are twofold;

1) from an airline's perspective: because airlines don't have to pay for training they will not be motivated to get the best pilot money can buy. Passive and docile (see point 2 below) 'button pushers' and 'bums on seats' will suffice.

2) from a pilot's perspective: by putting your head through a financial noose these pilots will be totally inhibited from addressing any safety issues. As a matter of fact a whole new generation of pilots is bred, who from day one have NO idea of any safety concept, but merely aim to please management and the person to their left.

Here's Harlan Ellison with an absolutely brilliant rant of how Hollywood 'pays' it's writers, scarily applicable to the airline industry as well:

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Old 14th Apr 2013, 08:40
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Originally Posted by Training Wheels
The WADD 09 VOR approach has an inbound course of 091 but despite the Jepps saying it's a straight-in approach, it's actually off set by 5 degrees to the left of runway centerline. If you become visual just before the missed approach point, you still need to manoevure 2 DME from the threshold to line up with the runway centreline ... runway 09 has a track of 086 if I remember correctly.
This is standard Straight-In Approach NPA stuff, Training Wheels. Unless the aid is on the extended centreline, you'll always have to manoeuvre left or right to line up with the runway. If the approach is flown as per the chart, only once though, a slight turn to align; left in this case. It may be after the MApt.

When the manoeuvring required to align exceeds the practical, then it becomes a Circling Approach.
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Old 14th Apr 2013, 08:40
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TV news in Australia report that no investigators at Lion Air plane yet. Only person there is a man in his underpants painting over the Lion logo on the fuselage.
Can this be true?
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Old 14th Apr 2013, 08:44
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surprised it's taken so long - in the States it's about the first thing they do............
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Old 14th Apr 2013, 08:59
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Brings a whole new meaning to the Fly + Dive package holiday.

More seriously looks like a fuel problem, lucky it wasn't Malindo,the new kid on the block..the skipper will be able put us all out of our misery pdq.

Last edited by camel; 14th Apr 2013 at 09:21.
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Old 14th Apr 2013, 09:08
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Well, indeed a Swiming pool in Sanur is not close to the met station in the
airport
About 4 miles due East of 027 Threshold actually. Close enough to know whether to get out of the pool if TS are close. Winds almost zero and low clouds both East and West so agree that West of the airport, given the prevailing SE winds at this time of year (Although just changing from W to SE and still oscillating), would not be visible from Sanur.

And regarding power loss option preference to land in the sea rather than "Hit" the sea wall or runway, at DPS the wall is ABOUT 15 Ft and the option is NOT to ditch because there is very obvious and shallow reef all the way in. That's not a "Sully" option, perhaps "Hobson's choice" in the event of power loss?

Looks like a power problem leaving no options or total incompetence but agree that speculation at this stage with no real technical information is useless.

Last edited by philipat; 14th Apr 2013 at 09:26.
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Old 14th Apr 2013, 09:22
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Looks like a power problem leaving no options or total incompetence but agree that speculation at this stage with no real technical information is useless.
Oh the irony of that post!

A4
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Old 14th Apr 2013, 09:46
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Rwy09 Denpensar

I have operated for some 15 years onto that Rwy in Bali. It's a straight forward vor approach over water. It is offset to the Rwy and does require re aligning at 500 feet for final. At that time of the day the papi lighting is virtually useless due to salt spray with the red lights generally indistinguishable. It can appear 4 white lights with salt spray and the bright sun behind the aircraft shining directly on the lights. The last bit of the approach is over shallow reef which is covered at high tide and exposed in patches at low tide. You can have rolling waves rolling across the reef in the landing direction toward the end of the sea wall and Rwy which can be a little disconcerting. I would say very lucky the plane not more badly damaged with serious loss of life. It's quite a long Rwy for 737 ops.
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Old 14th Apr 2013, 09:59
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.
........and the rule of five times your ground speed to give you a 3 degree glideslope descent rate...5x140=700 fpm.
I found half the groundspeed in hundreds easier to remember i.e. 7 - hundred - in your example. ( I know, I know, just use the first digit. )

Last edited by ExSp33db1rd; 14th Apr 2013 at 10:03.
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Old 14th Apr 2013, 10:01
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Someone mentions from one of the planefinder tracks that the Virgin aircraft is circling.

I know for a fact they went around due weather. They were number 2 behind the Lion Air aircraft. This comes direct from a mate in Virgin.

So despite the METAR evidence, there was obviously some sort of weather phenomena affecting the approach path around about the time Lion Air made their approach.
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Old 14th Apr 2013, 10:08
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ATC Watcher, it's still NOSIG... CB does not equal TS.
Lancer, just to be sure we understand each other, NOSIG means NO SIGNIFICANT CHANGE.

Nothing to do with the severity of the wx.
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Old 14th Apr 2013, 10:15
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Finally someone (Indolion), supposedly closer to the action, gives us some information and it is totally ignored:
Dear Colleagues,
As we heard a news that today one of our colleague got serious accident at Bali.
JT 904 / PK LKS / B 737-800 NG
Stretch : BDO-DPS
PIC : Capt. Mahlup Gozali (Local)
SIC : FO . Chirag Kalra (Indian)

Everyone onboard include active crew has been evacuate and no fatalities.
We highly appreciate with their good job and excellent professionalism.
Now we need all colleague to keep focus on your job and give service excellent to all passenger by giving a flight announcement with warm greetings. We need to keep all passenger feel safe to fly with Lion Air.
Last time kindly to remind you that always be aware of sudden windshear or any kind of weather phenomena that would result on speed drop and even worse aircraft sink especially on very short final position. Don't hesitate to put more additional thrust to disseminate this event and if abnormal thrust position reach it means the stabilized approach criteria has been breach and this is the alert for us to commence immediate GO AROUND. At this time REJECT LANDING Go Around procedure must be comply accordingly.
Finally my colleague I would like to say SAFETY IS COMES FROM OUR DICIPLINE. Always Keep alert and Have a safe flight.
God bless us.
Sincerely yours,
First of all, as it is not really level 6 English, let me ask is this a babel fish translation or are these actually the words of your chief pilot?

He specifically addresses windshear, wonder if it is a general caution or whether he is acting on known facts. We will probably know when/if Boeing publishes a reminder of windshear recovery also...
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Old 14th Apr 2013, 10:19
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Slight thread drift, since it has already been clearly established that this was an undershoot accident, but there was a 09 overrun accident in Dec 1984. A Garuda DC-9 landed 20 kts too fast, 1800 m down the runway (2700 m in those days). Not surprisingly, it ran off the end and broke into three pieces and caught fire. Amazingly everyone survived.

I drove past the site the next day. It was in the mangrove swamp about half-way between the 27 threshold and the Nusa Dua road. A thriving restaurant village had sprung up overnight, to cater to the hordes of curious sight-seers.
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Old 14th Apr 2013, 10:27
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Just my HO but based on my on the scene opinion, the conditions for windshear were simply not present, And, IAC, I thought that the 73NG was equipped with WS Doplar? 73 Drivers please advise.
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Old 14th Apr 2013, 10:43
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Can confirm what Transition Layer posted

Transition Layer,

Heard the same from a mate at Virgin Australia.
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Old 14th Apr 2013, 10:44
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I agree WS wouldn't be likely, but with CB's around, plus what "transition layer" remarks a few posts above, I wouldn't rule it out.
NG's have AFAIK both Predictive windshear PWS, which is doppler radar based, and Reactive windshear RWS which is flight data based.

Last edited by golfyankeesierra; 14th Apr 2013 at 10:46.
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Old 14th Apr 2013, 10:47
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FLAMEOUT?

I hope when the investigators look at the FDR that they find Cont Ign selected ON as per landing checklist and/or Flight In Heavy Rain.

IF there was a CuNimb leaking and a typical rain shower for the tropics then maybe the flames went out? Just a thought.
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