Lionair plane down in Bali.
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There is no connection whatsoever
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No proper conclusion.
No proper recomandation.
Just a lot of repeats ,irrelevant quoats grafs and nice pictures.
No proper recomandation.
Just a lot of repeats ,irrelevant quoats grafs and nice pictures.
"Worse still the captain was driven by the local culture that says that real men don't go around and he too deliberately ducked under."
Actually the local culture is not to be confrontational but to work things out together - admittedly a bit tough where they were
Actually the local culture is not to be confrontational but to work things out together - admittedly a bit tough where they were
I agree but there is also very strong pressure to avoid loss of face. I've often been in meetings where Indonesian professionals will avoid expressing their opinion, in case they are shown to be wrong.
On the aviation front, years ago, I was at Kai Tak and saw a Garuda DC-10 bounce so high, I felt sure it would have to go around. However, it descended and flared again, and disappeared in a cloud of brake smoke at the far end of the runway! A close call.
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Minima bust(or not) is a red herring.This is down to airmanship pure and simple.Autopilot OFF and trouble begins.1150' down at 30' is unforgiveable.They were high and one of the strongest caveats in the recovery process is to re-adjust ROD after recapturing profile.Seems like nobody was able to just "fly the plane".Like Asiana.Like AF 447 and countless others.Pilots are a dying breed being replaced by automation(lionair's answer to its woeful record is not to retrain its pilots to actually fly but rather install smart landing from honeywell) and rote procedure(say this when he does that,you do that when he says this,press this button here after he does that etc...).And to cap it all Lionair is now looking to hire FO's for LHS upgrade.Because they cant get enough experienced guys to fly all the brand new jets theyre getting.Crazy.
Ive retired now but I saw it all unfold in my years in the East as an expat.They dont want the automation out,they want to focus on the button-pressing,the monkey-see-monkey-do rote and the SOP.Btw,a GA after losing visual ref below MDA is simple airmanship(in fact not even that,its basic common sense) not SOP.
Ive retired now but I saw it all unfold in my years in the East as an expat.They dont want the automation out,they want to focus on the button-pressing,the monkey-see-monkey-do rote and the SOP.Btw,a GA after losing visual ref below MDA is simple airmanship(in fact not even that,its basic common sense) not SOP.
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Btw,a GA after losing visual ref below MDA is simple airmanship(in fact not even that,its basic common sense) not SOP.
Not only it is airmanship, but common sense really which could be altered by lack of training.
Even the best pilot in the world would have landed in the sea had he continued to 20ft without sighting the runway
But they could if they had to.
Mind you, they all have many hours flying IFR in turbo props and pistons. Maybe that's the difference.
I find it amazing how much variation there is between airlines.
Originally Posted by framer
Mind you, they all have many hours flying IFR in turbo props and pistons. Maybe that's the difference.
I find it amazing how much variation there is between airlines.
I find it amazing how much variation there is between airlines.
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The salary for this capt program is atrocious.. fly 90+hrs of <6000usd..
they bleeding pilots.. both FO and capt are leaving for better T & C. I got told over 400+ pilots have left. and more to go..up to now. so they been accepting local senior FOs who have been flying CASA (slight bigger than a twin otter etc) to jump straight into B737 as Captain. no jet time or glass time, and relying on the lion cadet pilots/ab initial pilots to stop the bleeding with a non experience jet capt.
All in all there is accident worst than Bali accident waiting to happen.. but i hope not.
they been using a new agency to recruit captains in europe called presidential something with promise of excellent salary and benefits etc... hahaha...
What they are getting are the bottom of the barrel capts with bad or not existence CRM. no one wants.
The rainy season is soon to be here... that will sort out the real pilots from the wananbes..
and now the airbus is arriving ....
they bleeding pilots.. both FO and capt are leaving for better T & C. I got told over 400+ pilots have left. and more to go..up to now. so they been accepting local senior FOs who have been flying CASA (slight bigger than a twin otter etc) to jump straight into B737 as Captain. no jet time or glass time, and relying on the lion cadet pilots/ab initial pilots to stop the bleeding with a non experience jet capt.
All in all there is accident worst than Bali accident waiting to happen.. but i hope not.
they been using a new agency to recruit captains in europe called presidential something with promise of excellent salary and benefits etc... hahaha...
What they are getting are the bottom of the barrel capts with bad or not existence CRM. no one wants.
The rainy season is soon to be here... that will sort out the real pilots from the wananbes..
and now the airbus is arriving ....
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I spent 3 years in Jakarta flying a Gulfstream around the region. We were not allowed on Lion air at all. I watched them land with tailwinds on wet runways all the time. Take-off in weather we would wait for. Land long and almost go off the end of the runway. Bali did not surprise me one bit.
I had drinks many times with the low time F/O's in a few expat bars in Jakarta. The stories they told were just down right scary. Now reading this thread it seems it will only get worse. Indonesia is not the place for people without good experience.
I had drinks many times with the low time F/O's in a few expat bars in Jakarta. The stories they told were just down right scary. Now reading this thread it seems it will only get worse. Indonesia is not the place for people without good experience.
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Do not disagree with your analyses, but if I read the report right , here , like in many others accidents recently, it is not the" inexperienced FO" , P2F or not, who caused the accident but rather the "old experienced Captain" .
Just a reminder.
Just a reminder.
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The FO was there, but unfortunately his culture is very yes sir, you are totally right sir, to someone who is more senior than him.
The only way LNI will get out of this rut is to have expat management running the show for a few years, and beat safety into everyone.
The only way LNI will get out of this rut is to have expat management running the show for a few years, and beat safety into everyone.
Yip. Indo is a nice place to live though if you can get out of Jakarta.
I imagine 12k USD net for Captains with $200 an hour after 65 hours would do the trick. Much cheaper than putting aircraft into the drink.
I imagine 12k USD net for Captains with $200 an hour after 65 hours would do the trick. Much cheaper than putting aircraft into the drink.
