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Lionair plane down in Bali.

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Lionair plane down in Bali.

Old 13th Apr 2013, 13:19
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If BA ever decides to recruit 200 hour guys based on the size of their wallet and not their experience we will surely do so. We now have a few thousand employees who no longer fly eJ and FR, does it make a difference, probably not, but as soon as more employers/business wake up to the fact of how these P2F airlines operate and start talking with their feet it may some day make aviation a safer place then it is now.
Oh, but they already do. You see, if I don't have 84k to pay for their cadet programme, I'm not BA material. How's that not based on the size of ones wallet. Granted, they do pay you back (12k/year, so not too fast either), but the 30k you'd have to spend on an FR TR probably pays for itself over the same time period anyway. And the 82k for BA is actually more than what the Ezy/CTC programme costs.

Oh, and you better add FlyBe/Jet2/Monarch/Thomson/Lufthansa/Emirates... Actually, I think it'd be easier if you just took the train instead.
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 13:19
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Not sure where this comparison to the Hudson incident is coming from. Those guys put an aircraft in the water safely with loss of all engines.

Far as we can see this seemed to be a fully functional aircraft until it ran off the runway. Combined with the historical record of Lionair smashing their aircraft into the green beyond DER it's an entirely different scenario.
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 13:22
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Folks, I think that you are missing the serious ramifications and knock on effect that this incident has caused.

Thank god no one was seriously hurt or killed.

Please spare a thought now though for the thousands of bogans stranded at the airport waiting for their delayed flights back to Western Australia.

I have it on good authority that many mine sites in WA are implementing their contingency plans as we speak as they are not sure how they are going to staff their sites Monday morning if the backlog is not cleared in the next few hours...
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 13:24
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Originally Posted by cldrvr View Post
If BA ever decides to recruit 200 hour guys based on the size of their wallet and not their experience we will surely do so. We now have a few thousand employees who no longer fly eJ and FR, does it make a difference, probably not, but as soon as more employers/business wake up to the fact of how these P2F airlines operate and start talking with their feet it may some day make aviation a safer place then it is now.
You understand aviation already is the safest mode of transport on the planet, right?
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 13:30
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I have to agree with you that experience is important and that this P2F is absolutely disgraceful .

But doing it like in the US with requirements of 1500 hours before you can apply for an airline job makes nothing sense.

Where should you ever get so much experience then? In GA? That is almost impossible. That takes maybe 5 to 10 years. Depending on what kind of GA operation you work in. And what is the relevance of flying whole the time SE?

So with that statement of yours I do not agree. But that there must be done about the quality of Ab Initio Pilots. I say, I have to agree. But we can not say anything before the final report is coming out about this Accident.
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 13:32
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Bali Accident

The Sydney Morning Herald report has lot more detail. Paticularly the report that the aircraft ditched short of landing after the pilot reported engine trouble.
Well done to the cabin crew who seemed to have excelled with the evacuation.

Passenger plane crashes into sea

Last edited by Raider1; 13th Apr 2013 at 13:43.
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 13:36
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I have flown with a lot of pilots over the years. Everybody talking about an hour minimum here:
If every airline is only hiring pilots with (let's say) at least 2000 hours:
How wil any flight student ever get to these 2000 hours.
Flight instruction? Not an option for the masses

It's not all about hours. I have seen 2000 hour pilot with skills weaker than a 200 hour pilot. It's all about quality flight training snd what you do within these hours.
If you just set up an hour minimum...'m sure that there are places in the Philipines & Co that paint you hours into your logbook.
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 13:40
  #88 (permalink)  
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So either ran out of fuel, or multiple bird strike... was it the first approach? what is the fuel policy/alternate?

What was the maintenance action/status before flight. Plenty to discuss. But still good to see P2F is getting the exposure it needs to be defeated.
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 13:40
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I do not agree with what you are saying.
You are talking about hiring pilots whereby the once with lowest experience had like 4000 hours. How did he get those hours?
Exactly. By starting somewhere to make those hours.
You have to start with something. Also that person with 4000 hours had once 200 hours.
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 13:43
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the report in the Sydney hearld suggest's they have suffered an engine failure, and as a result have tried to glide the aircraft in on no power hence falling short of the the runway.

this could explain the mayday call some time before the incident....
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 13:48
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an interesting posting by Gerry Soejatman at his blog. He is a very well informed aviation consultant in Indonesia.

His blog shows a photo of the weather at the airport. Dark clouds. No ILS not approach lights on runway 09, just PAPI.

http://gerryairways.********.nl/2013...-and-ends.html

Here a photo taken from aircraft on final for 09. Runway and Lion Air B737 in the sea clearly visible.
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/b...ps2d76e83a.jpg
and a closer look. Luckily the aircraft did not hit the stone barrier
BHuuIF1CIAARBoAjpglarge_zps89e7e7a1.jpg Photo by yudra1 | Photobucket

Last edited by 1stspotter; 13th Apr 2013 at 14:01.
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 13:50
  #92 (permalink)  
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I was going to suggest before that there did not seem to be any sign of fuel floating on the water, but I hesitated..........
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 13:50
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Morning herald reports from eye witnesses onboard & another surfing. a) heavy rain on approach b) engine ripped off c) not much fuel in the water, pilot must have dumped it.

Last edited by F14; 13th Apr 2013 at 13:50.
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 13:50
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Sure P40Warhawk , but I don't think a complex Jet with 180 pax is the place to start building experience.

Last edited by NordicMan; 13th Apr 2013 at 13:53.
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 13:52
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737 does not have parameters to dump fuel
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 13:56
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cldrvr

Its the training not the flying hours that make a safe operation.
BA have been putting 200 hour co-pilots onto Airbus/B737/B757 for years, with no problems.
The RAF have widebody jet Capts. with less than 2000 hours total flying.
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 14:02
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Although I regularly read Prrune, almost without exception why let facts get in the way of a good story? It's hard to separate the wheat from the chaff sometimes with 20K TT heavy skippers competing with armchair MS FS kids (of all ages).

As far as I can see the crew had an incident with no loss of life. Whether they are responsible or not is another matter. At the moment I'll give them the benefit of the doubt as will most rational people.

As for P2F, the Kos incident report from a few years back really needs to be read by more people. To me it opened up a window into the whole dirty business.
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 14:02
  #98 (permalink)  
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I think the point is not that the 737 does not have fuel dump, but the surfer reported what he saw, felt and smelt. He was not an aviation man.

This however would indicate, nothing left in the tanks. or tanks sealed, fire warning switches pulled to the engine/engines detached. Otherwise expect fuel leaking everywhere
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 14:03
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remember Adam air? they had a few accidents and then lost another Hull and they were finished, could the same happen to Lion given the amount of aircraft they have and have on order????
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Old 13th Apr 2013, 14:04
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watching Fox news here in the USA...THEY said it was an over run.

who really knows?

but 737 next gens seem to over run a bit often...like chicago midway...difficulty getting into reverse.

as to landing in the water with gear down (as in undershoot), a DC8 did this so well at KSFO in the 1970's (or 69) that the plane was taken out , fixed up and used for another twenty years.

generally speaking, an over run is pilot error

and undershoot? out of gas? we shall see.


IF you land on a critical length runway, use max stopping effort until you are at taxi speed...no take it easy for the passengers.
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