Female pilots at Ryanair???
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I think its important to discriminate between those fine FEMALE pilots and the masses of male pilots that bitch like girls from the minute they get in the crew room. From their rostas to their careers etc.
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The Chief Pilot of Atlantic Airlines / Air Atlantique group based in CVT, is female. She oversees what I am sure is the most diverse and complicated group of aircraft in the UK, including some modern jets and turboprops, and a large assortment of very old and complex machinery including the world's largest commercially operational fleet of DC3, DC6 and Lockheed Electra aircraft.
At the risk of stating the bleedin obvious she is one very, very, very, very, very good pilot indeed.
At the risk of stating the bleedin obvious she is one very, very, very, very, very good pilot indeed.
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"Negative" Recruitment
"Airbus Girl"
Your initial question seems to reveal an attitude inclined to believe in the RIGHT women have to airline employment rather than the OPPPORTUNITY.
Did you consider the possibility that the female candidate in question, simply failed to meet Ryan Air's required standards?
On a wider point, you should consider whether private employers should have the right, in a "free market', to choose whomsoever they please for any position and then let the public decide whether their hiring practices are acceptable, exempli gratia, by voting with their feet.
Tediously, I have to preface this next statement and say that it is not intended as a insult, but as a male airline pilot and rising beyond questions of general competence, I think speak for many PC weary colleagues when I say, simply, that; I prefer to fly with the guys-bottom line I’m afraid. Don’t be duped into a perception of larger opinion by this and other threads, which painfully follow the same old tired pattern of: PC outrage –UPC response- Administrator response- then floods of self-congratulatory, sycophantic PC drivel. I've heard a variety of derogatory expressions for female pilot over the years, but "conversation stopper" might be the most incisive.
So if you really do believe that your fellow sister was unfairly deprived of a job that was rightfully hers (or whether you don’t), do yourself and the industry a favour and never fly Ryan Air again. (I hope every night for it and its’ ilk’s speedy and messy demise)
Your initial question seems to reveal an attitude inclined to believe in the RIGHT women have to airline employment rather than the OPPPORTUNITY.
Did you consider the possibility that the female candidate in question, simply failed to meet Ryan Air's required standards?
On a wider point, you should consider whether private employers should have the right, in a "free market', to choose whomsoever they please for any position and then let the public decide whether their hiring practices are acceptable, exempli gratia, by voting with their feet.
Tediously, I have to preface this next statement and say that it is not intended as a insult, but as a male airline pilot and rising beyond questions of general competence, I think speak for many PC weary colleagues when I say, simply, that; I prefer to fly with the guys-bottom line I’m afraid. Don’t be duped into a perception of larger opinion by this and other threads, which painfully follow the same old tired pattern of: PC outrage –UPC response- Administrator response- then floods of self-congratulatory, sycophantic PC drivel. I've heard a variety of derogatory expressions for female pilot over the years, but "conversation stopper" might be the most incisive.
So if you really do believe that your fellow sister was unfairly deprived of a job that was rightfully hers (or whether you don’t), do yourself and the industry a favour and never fly Ryan Air again. (I hope every night for it and its’ ilk’s speedy and messy demise)
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Hey don't worry CAVU mate. It's apparently quite common, and psychologically natural for a lot of men, who've had their sexual advances repeatedly rejected by women over a period of years, to have your little problem with mental block as soon as you try to engage in normal conversation with a woman. There are counselling courses available to you and everything, if you just do a little research 
It becomes a lot easier once you try and realize that they're actually people mate ... human beings you know. They do comprise 50% of the population of this earth. All you have to do is open your mouth and talk to them ... or try listening ... ummm you might even find they have an interesting story to tell you.
If of course, your conversational skills are incapable of extending beyond the tiresome, typical building site, football results, and phwoarr-look-at-the-tits-on-that variety, then you might struggle.
Conversation killer indeed. The REAL conversation killer is when the other pilot is some moron redneck whose conversation never strays from page 3, is totally incapable of stringing together a rational argument on any subject, and randomly accuses groups of people that might not agree with you of 'sitting about giving each other hand jobs'. THAT is the only kind of thing that drives me to murderous thoughts after a couple hours in the cruise. Give me an intelligent woman to talk to any day
It becomes a lot easier once you try and realize that they're actually people mate ... human beings you know. They do comprise 50% of the population of this earth. All you have to do is open your mouth and talk to them ... or try listening ... ummm you might even find they have an interesting story to tell you.
If of course, your conversational skills are incapable of extending beyond the tiresome, typical building site, football results, and phwoarr-look-at-the-tits-on-that variety, then you might struggle.
Conversation killer indeed. The REAL conversation killer is when the other pilot is some moron redneck whose conversation never strays from page 3, is totally incapable of stringing together a rational argument on any subject, and randomly accuses groups of people that might not agree with you of 'sitting about giving each other hand jobs'. THAT is the only kind of thing that drives me to murderous thoughts after a couple hours in the cruise. Give me an intelligent woman to talk to any day
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Luke wow
I was gonna stay out of this, because I just can't be a
ed with this discussion any longer, it is just sooo passe.
come up with something new, will you?!?
But what cavu (or what ever your name was) comes up with is just laughable. I won't flatter his unintelligence with a response.
Q:There are people we don't like everywhere: it makes no odds if they are female. Ever wondered if the boys like to fly with YOU cavu??? May be they come into the crew room in the morning, see your name on the sheet and yelp in despair: Oh god, please, no, not HIM!!!
Ever wondered, you ??
A person should get a job due to their suitability and qualification, not because she is a oneyed-wheelchair-using-any-colour-you-like lesbian single mother of three.
Uh-oh, I'm bracing myself for the PC brigade
I was gonna stay out of this, because I just can't be a
ed with this discussion any longer, it is just sooo passe. come up with something new, will you?!?
But what cavu (or what ever your name was) comes up with is just laughable. I won't flatter his unintelligence with a response.
Q:There are people we don't like everywhere: it makes no odds if they are female. Ever wondered if the boys like to fly with YOU cavu??? May be they come into the crew room in the morning, see your name on the sheet and yelp in despair: Oh god, please, no, not HIM!!!
Ever wondered, you
??A person should get a job due to their suitability and qualification, not because she is a oneyed-wheelchair-using-any-colour-you-like lesbian single mother of three.
Uh-oh, I'm bracing myself for the PC brigade
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...... and going on from there, just how many female pilots are employed on North Sea oil support helicopter operations these days? Probably make the fixed wing side seem well populated with lady pilots by comparison.
Mind you, maybe its because they have more sense.
Mind you, maybe its because they have more sense.
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I'm sorry to have to state the obvious, but given O'Learys obsession with cost savings...why the hell would he want to employ women when they are likely to insist on the right to avail of PAID maternity leave.
Sure, husbands have limited rights to time off around birth...I'm not au fait what FR does to comply with this (I'll bet its given grudgingly) - but a few weeks time off for dad is nothing compared to the cost of months off for mommy!
If I was O'Leary there is no way I'd hire women...beyond a few raging lezzers as token females...to make the numbers look good.
Sure, husbands have limited rights to time off around birth...I'm not au fait what FR does to comply with this (I'll bet its given grudgingly) - but a few weeks time off for dad is nothing compared to the cost of months off for mommy!
If I was O'Leary there is no way I'd hire women...beyond a few raging lezzers as token females...to make the numbers look good.
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Oh, dear, here we go again... another "women pilots bashing session". We had a number of such threads in private flying.
It used to be, and probably still is, that the failing rate for air lines was 98%! It didn't matter if it was guys or gals... if you didn't meet the requirements, your out!
Lufthansa was one of the last airlines to accept women. My ex was a 737 Captain and before the first ones were accepted, he, too, thought they be lousy. Well, he later couldn't praise them enough! He said that most of the women co-pilots he got were BETTER then the men he flew with.
Maybe it's because they have to acheive more... example: if they did a mistake in training, the fellow students (all guys) would say "sure, we knew a women couldn't handle it". The same mistake by a guy would get ignored!!
DLH now has many female pilots, both as co and as captain, AND training pilots!! Now if those machos at Lufthansa have no problem with it, then the rest should not mind.
My job is in a male-dominated area. I hate the thought I got the posistion because I'm a woman! I DON'T want to fill a quota, I want it because I'm QUALIFIED! And I can't see any boss wanting someone who can't pull the ropes... he wants to spend his money on someone who will do the job... whether it be male or female!
When will this competition between the sexes stop... or do they make you feel inferiorer CAVU?
Westy
It used to be, and probably still is, that the failing rate for air lines was 98%! It didn't matter if it was guys or gals... if you didn't meet the requirements, your out!
Lufthansa was one of the last airlines to accept women. My ex was a 737 Captain and before the first ones were accepted, he, too, thought they be lousy. Well, he later couldn't praise them enough! He said that most of the women co-pilots he got were BETTER then the men he flew with.
Maybe it's because they have to acheive more... example: if they did a mistake in training, the fellow students (all guys) would say "sure, we knew a women couldn't handle it". The same mistake by a guy would get ignored!!
DLH now has many female pilots, both as co and as captain, AND training pilots!! Now if those machos at Lufthansa have no problem with it, then the rest should not mind.
My job is in a male-dominated area. I hate the thought I got the posistion because I'm a woman! I DON'T want to fill a quota, I want it because I'm QUALIFIED! And I can't see any boss wanting someone who can't pull the ropes... he wants to spend his money on someone who will do the job... whether it be male or female!
When will this competition between the sexes stop... or do they make you feel inferiorer CAVU?
Westy
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Toddler:
Thank you for your response and advice. My blundering Neanderthal approach seems to have worked exceptionally well thus far in both my personal, and professional career and so I’ll pass on the suggestion of counseling at this time.
You, however, might do well to ponder this radical possibility. That it is entirely possible to prefer flying with the chaps and having my own legitimate views on recruitment without being unpleasant and ignorant in, or outside, the cockpit.
I like to fly with the guys in much the same way I prefer to hang out with them on the weekend. Range of conversation is much wider and more colourful and no Toddler, that is not a reference to solely lewd and crass banter. But, only an absolute fool would engage in ALL the same types of conversation with women as one has with men. Or perhaps you are a fool. Perhaps you live in a hermaphroditic dream World. Or perhaps you are just so naïve as to think that one can speak relatively freely without fear of frivolous repercussions.
Oh and just so you’re not in any doubt, my “random accusation” is directed at people like you working hard under the table and is also exasperation with NIMBY pilots who’ll spend all day reading your sycophantic drivel and not even have the courage to say something.
Not to be childish, but I will be-“It's apparently quite common, and psychologically natural for a lot of men, who've had their sexual advances repeatedly rejected by women over a period of years, to have your little problem…” - That’s weak. I bet you don’t like the expression “Empty Kitchen” either (Wind, Wind, Wind). Nor do I Toddler, nor do I.
Oh, and Luke, one last thing. “Page 3 and football”- hardly “mate”. If you knew me you would find that I’m more refined than you can possibly imagine
Thank you for your response and advice. My blundering Neanderthal approach seems to have worked exceptionally well thus far in both my personal, and professional career and so I’ll pass on the suggestion of counseling at this time.
You, however, might do well to ponder this radical possibility. That it is entirely possible to prefer flying with the chaps and having my own legitimate views on recruitment without being unpleasant and ignorant in, or outside, the cockpit.
I like to fly with the guys in much the same way I prefer to hang out with them on the weekend. Range of conversation is much wider and more colourful and no Toddler, that is not a reference to solely lewd and crass banter. But, only an absolute fool would engage in ALL the same types of conversation with women as one has with men. Or perhaps you are a fool. Perhaps you live in a hermaphroditic dream World. Or perhaps you are just so naïve as to think that one can speak relatively freely without fear of frivolous repercussions.
Oh and just so you’re not in any doubt, my “random accusation” is directed at people like you working hard under the table and is also exasperation with NIMBY pilots who’ll spend all day reading your sycophantic drivel and not even have the courage to say something.
Not to be childish, but I will be-“It's apparently quite common, and psychologically natural for a lot of men, who've had their sexual advances repeatedly rejected by women over a period of years, to have your little problem…” - That’s weak. I bet you don’t like the expression “Empty Kitchen” either (Wind, Wind, Wind). Nor do I Toddler, nor do I.
Oh, and Luke, one last thing. “Page 3 and football”- hardly “mate”. If you knew me you would find that I’m more refined than you can possibly imagine
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This argument really pi$$es me off. It seems until at least half of every occupation is undertaken by women there will always be cries of sexism.
Ever stopped to think that it's only in the last 10-15 years that women have decided to go for pilot as a career, hence the limited
number of female chief pilots? How many guys make chief pilot in 15 years?
Ever stopped to figure out the ratio of males/females undertaking training? Of 5 females going through training the same time as me, 5 of them have jobs. Many of the blokes don't. Were the females better candidates for the jobs than all the guys that haven't got work? In some cases yes, in some cases no. So why did they get the jobs? I would like to think because on the day they had the better interviews and convinced the employers that they would be good employees, plain and simple. And that's the way it should be for EVERYONE. No matter what job it's for.
As for positive discrimination, recently one major carrier was announcing some lay offs and was working on a last in first out basis. Unless you were female, then you could stay. Is that fair?
Ever stopped to think that it's only in the last 10-15 years that women have decided to go for pilot as a career, hence the limited
number of female chief pilots? How many guys make chief pilot in 15 years?
Ever stopped to figure out the ratio of males/females undertaking training? Of 5 females going through training the same time as me, 5 of them have jobs. Many of the blokes don't. Were the females better candidates for the jobs than all the guys that haven't got work? In some cases yes, in some cases no. So why did they get the jobs? I would like to think because on the day they had the better interviews and convinced the employers that they would be good employees, plain and simple. And that's the way it should be for EVERYONE. No matter what job it's for.
As for positive discrimination, recently one major carrier was announcing some lay offs and was working on a last in first out basis. Unless you were female, then you could stay. Is that fair?
Now now PiperGirl, don't cry.
Problem is nowadays people are too PC. I personally believe a womans place is in the home (or serving passengers). But I'm sure I'll be shouted down for extreme sexism - or accused of being out of touch with reality.
Problem is nowadays people are too PC. I personally believe a womans place is in the home (or serving passengers). But I'm sure I'll be shouted down for extreme sexism - or accused of being out of touch with reality.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
..and a man's place is in the bedroom. 
And as I always say "a hard man is good to find".
And as I always say "a hard man is good to find".
Last edited by redsnail; 14th Dec 2004 at 12:40.
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Now, now Flash8 don't jump to (stereotyped) conclusions. You are just exhibiting your immature thought processes.
I think you'll find that most FOs will prefer to be sitting next to a commander that won't get them into a GPWS incident in the first place! If you know your accident history you will know that the two pilots flying into a lump of granite have up to now always been of the XX chromosome category. And while still only 3-7% of the commercial pilots are women they have been around for about 30 years. If we were such a risk factor to safe operations as you are implying we'd be figuring in the statistics by now.
I have been flying comerially for 23 years and am now a checkpilot with my airline. (No not the first female one either). I would prefer to fly with a professional, competent colleague and have found that those qualities are independent of gender.
Iwonder what the women you've encountered in your life have done to have left you with this attitude. It's nothing to do with being pc - you are just being small minded.
As far as traditional roles are concerned researchers have concluded that if men were a separate species they'd be becoming extinct. There's not much call for bison hunters any more. Just as well we need to keep you around to fill our physical needs once in a while.
I think you'll find that most FOs will prefer to be sitting next to a commander that won't get them into a GPWS incident in the first place! If you know your accident history you will know that the two pilots flying into a lump of granite have up to now always been of the XX chromosome category. And while still only 3-7% of the commercial pilots are women they have been around for about 30 years. If we were such a risk factor to safe operations as you are implying we'd be figuring in the statistics by now.
I have been flying comerially for 23 years and am now a checkpilot with my airline. (No not the first female one either). I would prefer to fly with a professional, competent colleague and have found that those qualities are independent of gender.
Iwonder what the women you've encountered in your life have done to have left you with this attitude. It's nothing to do with being pc - you are just being small minded.
As far as traditional roles are concerned researchers have concluded that if men were a separate species they'd be becoming extinct. There's not much call for bison hunters any more. Just as well we need to keep you around to fill our physical needs once in a while.
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There is no reason that a woman can not fly or command an aeroplane as well as a man.
Women should be given as much (but not more) opportunity to do so.
There can be no other opinion.
End of discussion.
Women should be given as much (but not more) opportunity to do so.
There can be no other opinion.
End of discussion.
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Just a quick warning to the neanderthals out there that from now on, anyone exhibiting the effects of a mutated testosterone imbalance in their replies to this thread are likely to find their efforts wasted as my feminine side just can't stand all that machoism. 
I mean, if you can't take part in a serious debate without resorting to inflammatory euphemisms that lead the majority of sensible readers to assume that you are nothing more than an outdated dinosaur with what can only be described as a low self esteem who has yet to be led, kicking and screaming no doubt, into the 19th century, never mind the 21st, then there are plenty of other websites out there catering for your prejudices.
What sex the pilot or pilots are on an aircraft should have no bearing on anything. As long as they are trained to the required standards there is no reason to worry about anything. If anyone is worried or feels uncomfortable about having to work with a female pilot then it is they who should seek treatment for their irrational fears. Admitting to any kind of bias in this day and age should sound alarm bells and you'd better hope that anyone who knows you have these 'problems' is sympathetic.
So, I hope those of you who feel they have to air their prejudices with the usual 'flame' type responses from behind the comforting cloak of anonymity have had your fill on this thread. Anything from now on that is worded in such a way as to inflame the debate with nonsense and bravado is going to be wasted... Unless, of course, you are macho enough to provide your true identity. (I won't be holding my breath 
)
I mean, if you can't take part in a serious debate without resorting to inflammatory euphemisms that lead the majority of sensible readers to assume that you are nothing more than an outdated dinosaur with what can only be described as a low self esteem who has yet to be led, kicking and screaming no doubt, into the 19th century, never mind the 21st, then there are plenty of other websites out there catering for your prejudices. What sex the pilot or pilots are on an aircraft should have no bearing on anything. As long as they are trained to the required standards there is no reason to worry about anything. If anyone is worried or feels uncomfortable about having to work with a female pilot then it is they who should seek treatment for their irrational fears. Admitting to any kind of bias in this day and age should sound alarm bells and you'd better hope that anyone who knows you have these 'problems' is sympathetic.
So, I hope those of you who feel they have to air their prejudices with the usual 'flame' type responses from behind the comforting cloak of anonymity have had your fill on this thread. Anything from now on that is worded in such a way as to inflame the debate with nonsense and bravado is going to be wasted... Unless, of course, you are macho enough to provide your true identity.
(I won't be holding my breath )
Everyone has prejudices and bias; I certainly have and would make no apology whatsoever for holding them.
All of you are entitled to your opinions and the only nanny thing I'd suggest is to try to be a wee bit more polite in the manner in which you express them.
. . . and I had no objection whatsoever to the FO who, unable to sleep on a long night flight, sat cross legged on the jumpseat wearing her Baby-Doll pyjamas and attempted to engage us in intelligent conversation
ps: and yes, I'm an unreconstructed dirty old man who considers washing the dishes to be a great leap towards modernity
All of you are entitled to your opinions and the only nanny thing I'd suggest is to try to be a wee bit more polite in the manner in which you express them.
. . . and I had no objection whatsoever to the FO who, unable to sleep on a long night flight, sat cross legged on the jumpseat wearing her Baby-Doll pyjamas and attempted to engage us in intelligent conversation
ps: and yes, I'm an unreconstructed dirty old man who considers washing the dishes to be a great leap towards modernity
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Interesting debate
And an issue I've wondered about sometimes and was there discrimination in recruiting pilots for airlines. I voiced this once to someone once who'd flown a bit, he believed that women in general find it harder to make the grade rather than they were being discriminated against. This is not intended as a sexist comment just a quote on quote suggestion to the practicalities of why there is such a gender imbalance existing in this profession. Perhaps its all the technical and mathematical stuff one needs to be good at, maybe like women in general excel in some areas men in general excel at the areas needed to be a competent airline pilot.
And an issue I've wondered about sometimes and was there discrimination in recruiting pilots for airlines. I voiced this once to someone once who'd flown a bit, he believed that women in general find it harder to make the grade rather than they were being discriminated against. This is not intended as a sexist comment just a quote on quote suggestion to the practicalities of why there is such a gender imbalance existing in this profession. Perhaps its all the technical and mathematical stuff one needs to be good at, maybe like women in general excel in some areas men in general excel at the areas needed to be a competent airline pilot.