Female pilots at Ryanair???
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We all know that men are known to use any means to obtain their goals...
Gee, what a pity, you sounded so reasonable and plausible before that comment.
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"Of course white western males have been in command of the aviation business since the very start so that most of us are led to believe they are the only ones who can fly an aircraft"
Perhaps if we had waited for any one else to design, build, fly aircraft we would still be walking.
Prospector
Perhaps if we had waited for any one else to design, build, fly aircraft we would still be walking.
Prospector
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maxalt I guess you don't have children.......
So, it might be an education to inform you that the success rate for an egg being fertilised and implanting in any one cycle are slightly less than 20%. So in light of that fact, do you think it is that easy to plan a pregnancy the way you are suggesting??
And BTW, I know you're being controversial for the sake of it, but don't be silly with it!
So, it might be an education to inform you that the success rate for an egg being fertilised and implanting in any one cycle are slightly less than 20%. So in light of that fact, do you think it is that easy to plan a pregnancy the way you are suggesting??And BTW, I know you're being controversial for the sake of it, but don't be silly with it!
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Here are a few historical facts from the Int. Society of Women Airline Pilots' website:
*Helen Ritchey was the first documented and verified female pilot to be hired to fly as a pilot of a commercial scheduled passenger carrier when the U.S. carrier, Central Airlines, hired her on December 13, 1934. The pilots wouldn't allow her to join the all-male pilot union so she was forced to resign in October of 1935. We are currently investigating two other woman that may take Helen's place in history, Betty Russell - purported to be flying for Royle and Andrews Flying Service in 1930 out of Alameda, California, and Marga von Etzdorf, purported to have flown Junkers F-13's for Lufthansa in 1927.*
There are now women flying for airlines even intraditionally conservative counties/cultures such as Japan, Bangladesh and Nigeria.
*Helen Ritchey was the first documented and verified female pilot to be hired to fly as a pilot of a commercial scheduled passenger carrier when the U.S. carrier, Central Airlines, hired her on December 13, 1934. The pilots wouldn't allow her to join the all-male pilot union so she was forced to resign in October of 1935. We are currently investigating two other woman that may take Helen's place in history, Betty Russell - purported to be flying for Royle and Andrews Flying Service in 1930 out of Alameda, California, and Marga von Etzdorf, purported to have flown Junkers F-13's for Lufthansa in 1927.*
There are now women flying for airlines even intraditionally conservative counties/cultures such as Japan, Bangladesh and Nigeria.
What about Saudia?
Though not. Blinkered sexual prejudice still rules in some quarters. But we mustn't upset them - they've got the oil....
Though not. Blinkered sexual prejudice still rules in some quarters. But we mustn't upset them - they've got the oil....
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Over thirty years ago I taught for a couple of years in a girls grammar school. Think back to those times and the prevailing attitudes - attitudes that included gender based aptitudes (girls: touchy- feely, caring occupations, etc. boys: leaders, maths and science, etc.). Unaware of these stereotypes (and with only a couple of male staff, of whom I was one) these pupils shone just as well at maths and science as the boys at their grammar school down the road. In fact better, a team of sixth formers won a national schools competition for physics and a prize in a national school maths competition - all without a hint of sexual politics or positioning - it was just pride in school work and good teaching. I don't remember anyone crowing about girls beating boys. A marked contrast to the comparative performance, even now, of girls vs boys in school maths and science.
My observations since then is that girls are different (!!!!), they generally do better at school (for lots of reasons) and only lose out later on when either 'up against boys' in situations where jostling for position pertains - everything from wanting the class to stay on track, competing for access to equipment through to ruthlessness (or lack of) in competing for promotion - or when they 'discover' the opposite sex. This happens at a crucial time for future careers, etc. - think of how many women have ditched their own academic / professional development in order to follow their man. When they find a way through that, and this is nowadays getting much better/easier, then there is no difference in intellectual or professional ability explained by gender alone. It's not women who are changing, there have always been some who defied the 'rules' (Joan of Arc, Elizabeth I, Margaret Thatcher, .......) and rose to the top in men's worlds, it is society's attitudes and opportunities - nurture over nature as educationalists, social scientists might say.
Where there are differences they tend to be subtle and/or generalisations such that you might 'find' between nationalities, cultures, etc..
Anyway - happy flying to all of you - boys and girls, men and women.
WE.
My observations since then is that girls are different (!!!!), they generally do better at school (for lots of reasons) and only lose out later on when either 'up against boys' in situations where jostling for position pertains - everything from wanting the class to stay on track, competing for access to equipment through to ruthlessness (or lack of) in competing for promotion - or when they 'discover' the opposite sex. This happens at a crucial time for future careers, etc. - think of how many women have ditched their own academic / professional development in order to follow their man. When they find a way through that, and this is nowadays getting much better/easier, then there is no difference in intellectual or professional ability explained by gender alone. It's not women who are changing, there have always been some who defied the 'rules' (Joan of Arc, Elizabeth I, Margaret Thatcher, .......) and rose to the top in men's worlds, it is society's attitudes and opportunities - nurture over nature as educationalists, social scientists might say.
Where there are differences they tend to be subtle and/or generalisations such that you might 'find' between nationalities, cultures, etc..
Anyway - happy flying to all of you - boys and girls, men and women.
WE.
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This thread gets better and better…
Snigs – you sure shot that *** down with facts!
Piton – women pilots in the US are recorded, but their European counterparts are more obscure. Still haven't found which European airline had the first female pilot.
WangEye – thank you ever so much! The lack of male role models in grammar school has been a problem for ages: Most men traditionally shie away from taking care of our young ones (defined as feminine area). My daughter told me early on that the noisy and hyperactive boys were in command of the classroom environment, so it was hard to learn anything. When they were assigned a male teacher in 4th grade, she was happy that he'd control the boys so that the girls were allowed to study. As you pointed out - upon reaching puberty, formerly bright girls hide their intellect in order to attract the boys' attention, dressing up and making up and faking whatever. Ok, I'll consider hormones and the ancient natural command regarding procreation. Still – mankind here did long ago relieve the female gender from the curse of multiple unwanted births and washing clothes in a river, etc etc. By inventing machinery which gave females time to think. The last 2-3 decades girls have been permitted to participate on the same level as boys. Even in the 21st century we are daily reminded that some representatives of the male gender has not caught on to this development. No matter what – life goes on, and men are now on "quotas" for positions in kindergarten (or whatever you call it) so as to give the hyperactive boys ways to deploy their energy until they grow old enough to realize that they actually have a brain.
Talking about different gender codes: Typical men are aggressive and figh, typical women are peaceful and talk. Which type would you prefer to have in the cockpit of an airline? Wherever males are put together, they tend to "measure up" and this may ruin CRM. Also has been known to create accidents. Any environment improves when females are introduced into male territory.
Frangatang & Flyma & Maxalt – "sprogs" popped by anyone today, may be the airline captains of tomorrow… If your mums had had to choose between career and offspring, maybe you wouldn't even be in the air by now?
Thanks to all of you who posted opinions and experiences confirming that the world turns, no matter what…
Piton – women pilots in the US are recorded, but their European counterparts are more obscure. Still haven't found which European airline had the first female pilot.
WangEye – thank you ever so much! The lack of male role models in grammar school has been a problem for ages: Most men traditionally shie away from taking care of our young ones (defined as feminine area). My daughter told me early on that the noisy and hyperactive boys were in command of the classroom environment, so it was hard to learn anything. When they were assigned a male teacher in 4th grade, she was happy that he'd control the boys so that the girls were allowed to study. As you pointed out - upon reaching puberty, formerly bright girls hide their intellect in order to attract the boys' attention, dressing up and making up and faking whatever. Ok, I'll consider hormones and the ancient natural command regarding procreation. Still – mankind here did long ago relieve the female gender from the curse of multiple unwanted births and washing clothes in a river, etc etc. By inventing machinery which gave females time to think. The last 2-3 decades girls have been permitted to participate on the same level as boys. Even in the 21st century we are daily reminded that some representatives of the male gender has not caught on to this development. No matter what – life goes on, and men are now on "quotas" for positions in kindergarten (or whatever you call it) so as to give the hyperactive boys ways to deploy their energy until they grow old enough to realize that they actually have a brain.
Talking about different gender codes: Typical men are aggressive and figh, typical women are peaceful and talk. Which type would you prefer to have in the cockpit of an airline? Wherever males are put together, they tend to "measure up" and this may ruin CRM. Also has been known to create accidents. Any environment improves when females are introduced into male territory.
Frangatang & Flyma & Maxalt – "sprogs" popped by anyone today, may be the airline captains of tomorrow… If your mums had had to choose between career and offspring, maybe you wouldn't even be in the air by now?
Thanks to all of you who posted opinions and experiences confirming that the world turns, no matter what…
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This serious issue has illiceted some hillarious responses. Thanks for the 'hiberno english' jokes. That made me pee my pants!!
Great to see boys and girls can still keep humour when disussing this subject.
Great to see boys and girls can still keep humour when disussing this subject.
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Nardi Riviera - Actually the dates I quoted from ISWAP are not just US - the Junckers pilot mentioned from1927 was with Lufthansa. On their webpage they also have a list of the national "firsts" that they received from those of us who came later. I think you'll find 1927 hard to beat at least for an airline pilot.
Many of us in Europe have put some effort into recording the pioneering flights (eg first female fo, first female captain, first all female crew) that took place in the last 15-20 years. When I started flying in Europe we (female flightcrew) were rare enough that we almost knew each other - we knew that airline A had one & airline B had 3 etc... Luckily now the percentages have increased and I no longer even personally know all the women in my airline (25 - 30 out of 350).
WangEye - I went to an all girls school and with hindsight I agree it certainly makes a difference that the person who came first in maths or physics was always a girl - there was no suggestion we couldn't cope with the subject matter and we just got on with it!
Many of us in Europe have put some effort into recording the pioneering flights (eg first female fo, first female captain, first all female crew) that took place in the last 15-20 years. When I started flying in Europe we (female flightcrew) were rare enough that we almost knew each other - we knew that airline A had one & airline B had 3 etc... Luckily now the percentages have increased and I no longer even personally know all the women in my airline (25 - 30 out of 350).
WangEye - I went to an all girls school and with hindsight I agree it certainly makes a difference that the person who came first in maths or physics was always a girl - there was no suggestion we couldn't cope with the subject matter and we just got on with it!
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Not all women want children. I don't, and I get just as annoyed as blokes do that there is the possibility now of women having up to a year off, PAID, to bring up their children. I don't plan on having sprogs, but I would still like to have a year's holiday with a wage-packet.
Of course, interviewers can't ask the girls whether they plan on having kids or not.
Of course, interviewers can't ask the girls whether they plan on having kids or not.
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Interesting. Lots of references to women flying in the civilian world but none to those who fly in the military. I can think of one familiar name who flew all manner of military aircraft and then moved to her present career flying passengers around.
I rather think her abilities and talents would make many who have posted here look very ordinary indeed although she would never say so.
I rather think her abilities and talents would make many who have posted here look very ordinary indeed although she would never say so.
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Nardi
Have nothing against sprogs, in fact I have one of my own - was purely trying to dispel the myth that women are paid their full pay whilst on maternity leave.
To anyone else who thinks it's a year's paid holiday, here are the facts - statutory maternity pay is 90 % of your salary for the first 6 weeks of maternity leave and £102.80 per week for 20 weeks. The remaining 26 weeks of maternity leave should you wish to take it are TOTALLY UNPAID.
Have nothing against sprogs, in fact I have one of my own - was purely trying to dispel the myth that women are paid their full pay whilst on maternity leave.
To anyone else who thinks it's a year's paid holiday, here are the facts - statutory maternity pay is 90 % of your salary for the first 6 weeks of maternity leave and £102.80 per week for 20 weeks. The remaining 26 weeks of maternity leave should you wish to take it are TOTALLY UNPAID.
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Not all women want children. I don't, and I get just as annoyed as blokes do that there is the possibility now of women having up to a year off, PAID, to bring up their children. I don't plan on having sprogs, but I would still like to have a year's holiday with a wage-packet.
very strange in fact that egoistic vision of the world. Procreation means survival of mankind, and surely for most of us it means as well that when we grow old, somebody will be able to take care of us.
I personaly find it fair that women have that compensation. In France were it is not allowed for pregnant women to fly for the all 9 month, PILOT or F/A receive 90% of their basic salary paid for by the employer. A pity it is not the same everywhere in Europe.
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not posted anything for a while, but the petty squabbling going on here needs a reply.
Do I have a problem with female pilots? , No, provided they make the grade. However I am sure there is plenty of positive discrimination going on, I've seen it in may industries whilst they try to get their PC quotas right. After a while the balance becomes OK and sanity returns or the companies realise it can't be achieved and give up.
PC assumption, 'men and women are the same with the same abilities'. FACT this is not so. most of the comments in this thread highlight what they see as their genders strong points, often exactly the points the other gender sees as their weak points AND YOU CAN'T SEE IT!
If you look at some other industies, lets take engineering, Female engineers are few and far between. The Engineering council has tried all kinds of ways to get girls into engineering, including blatant discrimination. Result, the Engineering Council says the drive was basically a failure, girls are basically not interrested in engineering as a job. However the few that are there are normally there because they want to and hence tend to be quite good. A lot of blokes in engineering are there because its a job they can do, it comes naturally and hence may aren't well motivated. Sound like aviation?
Other differences, illuded to in other postings, how do the genders respond to crises/ pressure/ failure. Generlisation girls cry blokes come out fighting. I've experinced both when the chips are down. The problem that a lot of the posts here point to is that in a safety critical application the fighter will survive, fly the plane until its on the deck where as the tears approach accepts defeat and death. Now the women reading this are probably about to skin me alive but what they- you- need to realise is that is how the men see it. It is also very true that men do not know how to handle women bursting into tears in a proffessional environment if they don't get their own way. Not many women equals little experinece of handling them
, so faced with all the very real possibilities of discrimination claims etc men give in and go for the easy option, also looks good for quotas etc.
I personally work with a few women, most good one or two not good. Which ones do I and my male colleagues prefer to work with? The ones who will join in the banter, not get all PC or put in a complaint if they think you've overstepped the mark slightly but would rather give as good as they get. I suspect that the majority of the female posters here are in this catergory, you seam quite good at giving. However, if you get a women who is known to file complaints about harassment at the drop of a hat its like having an icy gale in the room (one women I know filed a formal complaint because a male colleague farted near her). If you get an unkown women, men tend to be very cautious until they know what camp that women is in. Given this situation, fuelled larely by fear of harassment/preudice complaints is it surprising that some very reasonable guys say they prefer to fly with other blokes?
Do I have a problem with female pilots? , No, provided they make the grade. However I am sure there is plenty of positive discrimination going on, I've seen it in may industries whilst they try to get their PC quotas right. After a while the balance becomes OK and sanity returns or the companies realise it can't be achieved and give up.
PC assumption, 'men and women are the same with the same abilities'. FACT this is not so. most of the comments in this thread highlight what they see as their genders strong points, often exactly the points the other gender sees as their weak points AND YOU CAN'T SEE IT!
If you look at some other industies, lets take engineering, Female engineers are few and far between. The Engineering council has tried all kinds of ways to get girls into engineering, including blatant discrimination. Result, the Engineering Council says the drive was basically a failure, girls are basically not interrested in engineering as a job. However the few that are there are normally there because they want to and hence tend to be quite good. A lot of blokes in engineering are there because its a job they can do, it comes naturally and hence may aren't well motivated. Sound like aviation?
Other differences, illuded to in other postings, how do the genders respond to crises/ pressure/ failure. Generlisation girls cry blokes come out fighting. I've experinced both when the chips are down. The problem that a lot of the posts here point to is that in a safety critical application the fighter will survive, fly the plane until its on the deck where as the tears approach accepts defeat and death. Now the women reading this are probably about to skin me alive but what they- you- need to realise is that is how the men see it. It is also very true that men do not know how to handle women bursting into tears in a proffessional environment if they don't get their own way. Not many women equals little experinece of handling them
, so faced with all the very real possibilities of discrimination claims etc men give in and go for the easy option, also looks good for quotas etc.I personally work with a few women, most good one or two not good. Which ones do I and my male colleagues prefer to work with? The ones who will join in the banter, not get all PC or put in a complaint if they think you've overstepped the mark slightly but would rather give as good as they get. I suspect that the majority of the female posters here are in this catergory, you seam quite good at giving. However, if you get a women who is known to file complaints about harassment at the drop of a hat its like having an icy gale in the room (one women I know filed a formal complaint because a male colleague farted near her). If you get an unkown women, men tend to be very cautious until they know what camp that women is in. Given this situation, fuelled larely by fear of harassment/preudice complaints is it surprising that some very reasonable guys say they prefer to fly with other blokes?