Female pilots at Ryanair???
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In my company we are looking at a staggering percentage of close to 50% of all female pilots who end up in early retirement on medical grounds! Burn-out and fear-of-flying mostly.
Early retirement being in their mid-thirties, when the babies are coming.
Now, I`m not making any statements here about the female`s ability to command an aeroplane, but these statistics alone make you wonder wether aviation is a wise career choice for women.
I would be interested to know how the statistics are in other airlines, as this is getting more and more expensive for our pension-fund as well!
Early retirement being in their mid-thirties, when the babies are coming.
Now, I`m not making any statements here about the female`s ability to command an aeroplane, but these statistics alone make you wonder wether aviation is a wise career choice for women.
I would be interested to know how the statistics are in other airlines, as this is getting more and more expensive for our pension-fund as well!
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We've certainly tapped a rich seam of prejudice here. Thanks cantfly for the numbers, seems pretty consistent with the 2-3% figure.
It always stuns me that the few gals that there are have put up with all this antipathetic crap for all those years and persisted to get ailrline jobs. My gleaned impression is that they've had to be better than average and very determined or they simply would not have survived to get there.
I'm daunted that one of their number, who eschews motherhood, should envy their paid time off for child bearing duties. I'm sure those that have arrested their airline carreer to bear children, would happily exchange the additional paid time off with their male partner, if he would take on the bearing/birthing bit.
Apart from any other consideration and I too like a beer with pals down the boozer, it brought a change of conversation to the cockpit and by and large they smell a great deal better.
It always stuns me that the few gals that there are have put up with all this antipathetic crap for all those years and persisted to get ailrline jobs. My gleaned impression is that they've had to be better than average and very determined or they simply would not have survived to get there.
I'm daunted that one of their number, who eschews motherhood, should envy their paid time off for child bearing duties. I'm sure those that have arrested their airline carreer to bear children, would happily exchange the additional paid time off with their male partner, if he would take on the bearing/birthing bit.
Apart from any other consideration and I too like a beer with pals down the boozer, it brought a change of conversation to the cockpit and by and large they smell a great deal better.
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seat 0A - I also live and work at -11ft and would really like to know which operator has 50% women retiring early. Or do you just have 3 or 4 women in which case it's hardly a statistically significant number. In my mind it could point at something in your general company atmosphere that makes them want to stop and get out at soon as they can!
We have - as I mentioned earlier - about 25-30 women (out of 350) and the first one is retiring in a year or so at normal retirement age. Only 2 or possibly 3 have had kids in the 15 years I've been here and I don't think any colleagues can complain about sickness rates. One female colleague retired in the last 5 years with a medical problem after extended medical but that's it - and then again we have several guys on medical leave at any given time so that's all just normal ops.....
Like I said maybe it's something in the way your particular company operates - I'd be very interested to see your answers on total number of pilots and of female pilots.
We have - as I mentioned earlier - about 25-30 women (out of 350) and the first one is retiring in a year or so at normal retirement age. Only 2 or possibly 3 have had kids in the 15 years I've been here and I don't think any colleagues can complain about sickness rates. One female colleague retired in the last 5 years with a medical problem after extended medical but that's it - and then again we have several guys on medical leave at any given time so that's all just normal ops.....
Like I said maybe it's something in the way your particular company operates - I'd be very interested to see your answers on total number of pilots and of female pilots.
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50% off due to medical reasons? And how has that got anything to do with gender?
If you want to look at it statistically, I can give you some examples from my own company/ base.
15% are female.
Of the 85% who are male, 17% of the (male) FOs have been off sick so often its become a standing joke (and they've been interviewed for the high sickness level). 13% of the Captains have had at least 6 months off in the past year due to medical reasons. Another 26% have been off for a considerable period in the past year or two.
Of course then there is the 0.6% of pilots who used to be male and are now female. Which camp would you like the put them in? The "fight and survive" (or perhaps crash and burn, which is the flipside of this response) or the "cry lots" camp (actually women go more for the think rather than act, and can actually use intellect to get out of a situation rather than piling in straight away and attempting to use bravado. Kind of reminds me of the Azores glider incident, can't think why....).
Of the 15% of female pilots, their sickness record is at least as good as the male pilots.
If you want to look at it statistically, I can give you some examples from my own company/ base.
15% are female.
Of the 85% who are male, 17% of the (male) FOs have been off sick so often its become a standing joke (and they've been interviewed for the high sickness level). 13% of the Captains have had at least 6 months off in the past year due to medical reasons. Another 26% have been off for a considerable period in the past year or two.
Of course then there is the 0.6% of pilots who used to be male and are now female. Which camp would you like the put them in? The "fight and survive" (or perhaps crash and burn, which is the flipside of this response) or the "cry lots" camp (actually women go more for the think rather than act, and can actually use intellect to get out of a situation rather than piling in straight away and attempting to use bravado. Kind of reminds me of the Azores glider incident, can't think why....).
Of the 15% of female pilots, their sickness record is at least as good as the male pilots.
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Hey, relax people! I`m voicing a serious concern here.
Piton said:
That just might be the case. Maybe that`s why our company has been doing a survey among our female colleagues recently about this.
This is not something you can just wipe off the table like Airbus Girl is trying to do.
In a company with an average of 0,2 percent loss-of-license among the males, and about 50 percent in the female population, something needs to be looked into.
typo
Piton said:
maybe it's something in the way your particular company operates
This is not something you can just wipe off the table like Airbus Girl is trying to do.
In a company with an average of 0,2 percent loss-of-license among the males, and about 50 percent in the female population, something needs to be looked into.
typo
Psychophysiological entity
REMEMBER THIS AT CHRISTMAS TIME
According to the Alaska Department of Fish and Game, while both male and female reindeer grow antlers in the summer each year, male reindeer drop their antlers at the beginning of winter, usually late November to mid-December. Female reindeer retain their antlers till after they give birth in the spring.
Therefore, according to EVERY historical rendition depicting Santa's reindeer, EVERY single one of them, from Rudolph to Blitzen, had to be a girl.
We should've known... ONLY women would be able to drag a fat man in a red velvet suit all around the world in one night and not get lost.
According to the Alaska Department of Fish and Game, while both male and female reindeer grow antlers in the summer each year, male reindeer drop their antlers at the beginning of winter, usually late November to mid-December. Female reindeer retain their antlers till after they give birth in the spring.
Therefore, according to EVERY historical rendition depicting Santa's reindeer, EVERY single one of them, from Rudolph to Blitzen, had to be a girl.
We should've known... ONLY women would be able to drag a fat man in a red velvet suit all around the world in one night and not get lost.
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Seat 0A, come on then, do tell, just how many female pilots do you have in your company? And how many men? Then we can see if the data are statistically relevant.
The figures I gave were also totally factual.
You seem to know alot about the females in your company, so perhaps you could expand on the reasons behind their loss of licence? I mean, if someone loses their licence because they suffered injuries in a car crash, then surely that is not female-specific, as it could just as easily happen to a male.
I believe the CAA are currently doing research on the causes of loss of licence due to medical reasons.
The figures I gave were also totally factual.
You seem to know alot about the females in your company, so perhaps you could expand on the reasons behind their loss of licence? I mean, if someone loses their licence because they suffered injuries in a car crash, then surely that is not female-specific, as it could just as easily happen to a male.
I believe the CAA are currently doing research on the causes of loss of licence due to medical reasons.
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I've been involved in flying big airplanes for 19+ years, all in the non-sched sector; and all intl flying. I've heard a marked increase in female voices over the radio from all countries, some i was really astounded would let a female fly, but very glad they have broken the barrier. Of the ladies that i have worked with about 20 percent were not worth a hill of beans, (about the same as men)but the rest were very capable pilots. Having an attitude about women in the cockpit, is akin to racism. You better give the folks the benefit of doubt before you judge them. They just might teach you something if you open your mind a little.
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Thread Creep
Errr, slightly off message aren't we? Ryanair don't hire women pilots any more because the former chief pilots daughter stormed off an aircraft down route one day, tired of alleged 'sexual harassment' by the captain she was assigned to. MOL takes the view that the whole issue can be avoided by not hiring 'em in the first place. He may very well be a Vulcan with that kinda logic. Makes sence to me.
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Unless there's 2 big airlines operating from -11`, mr seat 0A is posting drivel. About 2200 pilots, of which 3% are female. Makes for somewhere like 65 women.
They call in sick slightly more frequently than the males, just like they do in most other jobs in the Low Lands.
One of them has left the job because she suffered fear of flying. This happened 10 years after she (young second officer) was the pilot flying during a very serious incident where they lost all engine power due to volcanisc ashes.
Why do you feel the need to make up fictitious numbers to score a point seat 0A? Truth doesn't shore up your opinion?
They call in sick slightly more frequently than the males, just like they do in most other jobs in the Low Lands.
One of them has left the job because she suffered fear of flying. This happened 10 years after she (young second officer) was the pilot flying during a very serious incident where they lost all engine power due to volcanisc ashes.
Why do you feel the need to make up fictitious numbers to score a point seat 0A? Truth doesn't shore up your opinion?
AlwaysOnFire
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MOL seem to be a person looking into every detail for cost cutting reasons, good on him.
I remember one French lady that flew the Concorde for AF, where there any at BA?
I remember one French lady that flew the Concorde for AF, where there any at BA?
Grandpa Aerotart
My first instructor was a women..she was excellent...flown with heaps since, including being the only male member
of a jet crew captained by a very capable ladybird...who could and did give as good as she got in any circumstance and who left me, more than once, almost floored by her learing, good naturedly, at male pax as they boarded....flying with her was a lot of fun...remember one occassion supporting her on her line check...the checky could be dry to the extent you were not sure whether he was seriously having a go at you or not...she was suffering a little bit of checkitis/nerves and it showed...while holding before takeoff I told her not to worry, if she failed I'd support her in a sexual harrasment suit..her look of absolute horror was priceless...as was the suppressed chuckles from the checky...her check went great and we had a few beers and laughed like drains about it that evening.
I'm a single Dad to a (wonderfull) teenage girl...she'll be 16 soon...she is definately in the midst of that phenomena called puberty...I find it SO frustrating that an otherwise intelligent, bright, witty young adult becomes a complete moron when it comes to boys
Doesn't want to study (does reasonably well despite that but could do much better) and feels that socialising is much more important than anything else...I can REALLY see an argument for single sex schools.
Even though I definately fall into the age group that came before PC and SNAGS I am convinced that, professionally, a person's sex is not an indication of competence or otherwise...it's irrelevant.
HOWEVER.
I have been dragged, by numerous females-both friends and 'more than' since my teens, to the conclusion that when it comes to men women are the dumbest, most illogical thing on two legs.
Definately too there are differences of perception towards the opposite sex...as someone posted above, some things which females tout as their strongsuites can be seen as otherwise by males and visa versa...the very basis of the battle of the sexes perhaps....definately the main pane in the glass ceiling.
It's a dilema
of a jet crew captained by a very capable ladybird...who could and did give as good as she got in any circumstance and who left me, more than once, almost floored by her learing, good naturedly, at male pax as they boarded....flying with her was a lot of fun...remember one occassion supporting her on her line check...the checky could be dry to the extent you were not sure whether he was seriously having a go at you or not...she was suffering a little bit of checkitis/nerves and it showed...while holding before takeoff I told her not to worry, if she failed I'd support her in a sexual harrasment suit..her look of absolute horror was priceless...as was the suppressed chuckles from the checky...her check went great and we had a few beers and laughed like drains about it that evening.I'm a single Dad to a (wonderfull) teenage girl...she'll be 16 soon...she is definately in the midst of that phenomena called puberty...I find it SO frustrating that an otherwise intelligent, bright, witty young adult becomes a complete moron when it comes to boys
Doesn't want to study (does reasonably well despite that but could do much better) and feels that socialising is much more important than anything else...I can REALLY see an argument for single sex schools.Even though I definately fall into the age group that came before PC and SNAGS I am convinced that, professionally, a person's sex is not an indication of competence or otherwise...it's irrelevant.
HOWEVER.
I have been dragged, by numerous females-both friends and 'more than' since my teens, to the conclusion that when it comes to men women are the dumbest, most illogical thing on two legs.
Definately too there are differences of perception towards the opposite sex...as someone posted above, some things which females tout as their strongsuites can be seen as otherwise by males and visa versa...the very basis of the battle of the sexes perhaps....definately the main pane in the glass ceiling.
It's a dilema
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 25th Dec 2004 at 16:46.
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A young lady going for an aviation career had a talk with her pilot uncle (737-captain) at a christmas party. He was scheduled for flights with female FO's, and didn't like the idea one bit. His worst scenario was to have a female captain, as he regards the home environment the only suitable place for women – luckily his seniority puts him in a safe spot. Good for the gals, I'd say: Flying with a crewmember of that disposition can be no fun. Imagine how such a guy may put you down as an FO, or question your command as a captain, just because of your gender.
Would be interesting to know if the Ryanair chief pilot's daughter mentioned earlier actually was a good pilot who had had enough harassment by the likes of my young friend's uncle. Until we get contradictory facts, I'd like to think so.
Macho-men have a habit of challenging anyone, and men of lower ranks can handle it due to conditioning from early age in the male environment. Females are not used to this code of conduct, and thus respond differently. Which may be one reason men don't like to share their professional habitat with women. (Differences in perception, as Chimbu Chuckles stated above.) Young girls downgrade themselves in order to be "attractive". Most are not fighters, but prefer to get somewhere by competence.
It's been some 30 years since the first post-WWII female pilots entered the scene. My guess is that it will take another 30 before gals are integrated. Looking back into history, there were astonishingly many female pilots in the 20-30'ies, but the war kicked them back half a century (to the kitchen) and they had to start all over again: http://www.wasp-wwii.org/wasp/resources/dora.html
So – no wonder the percentage of female pilots is still so low? Only the hardiest of personalities can survive, and some good pilots may be lost due to (secluded?) harassment by a few (?) conservative men unwittingly (?) choosing to resist bringing on modern times. Scenario more suitable for 1904 than 2004.
Thanks to those of you here who prove that the world turns.
Would be interesting to know if the Ryanair chief pilot's daughter mentioned earlier actually was a good pilot who had had enough harassment by the likes of my young friend's uncle. Until we get contradictory facts, I'd like to think so.
Macho-men have a habit of challenging anyone, and men of lower ranks can handle it due to conditioning from early age in the male environment. Females are not used to this code of conduct, and thus respond differently. Which may be one reason men don't like to share their professional habitat with women. (Differences in perception, as Chimbu Chuckles stated above.) Young girls downgrade themselves in order to be "attractive". Most are not fighters, but prefer to get somewhere by competence.
It's been some 30 years since the first post-WWII female pilots entered the scene. My guess is that it will take another 30 before gals are integrated. Looking back into history, there were astonishingly many female pilots in the 20-30'ies, but the war kicked them back half a century (to the kitchen) and they had to start all over again: http://www.wasp-wwii.org/wasp/resources/dora.html
So – no wonder the percentage of female pilots is still so low? Only the hardiest of personalities can survive, and some good pilots may be lost due to (secluded?) harassment by a few (?) conservative men unwittingly (?) choosing to resist bringing on modern times. Scenario more suitable for 1904 than 2004.
Thanks to those of you here who prove that the world turns.
Grandpa Aerotart
Nardi the female pilot boom of WW2 was 'tolerated' because there was just not enough men to ferry the aircraft from A-B.
That women were VERY good at it probably surprised the male powers that be...I can just imagine the relief the pollies and Generals felt when the WASPs so successfully contributed to the war effort.
It wasn't just the lady pilots who, mostly, ended up back in the kitchens bare foot and pregnant post war...it was millions of women who contributed in thousands of factories etc...no doubt the war was unwinable without their contributions.
1946 was a very different time and I can well imagine that many women were more than happy to see the war won and their men home...to return to what they were bought up to believe was their rightfull role..wives and mothers.
Clearly also pandoras box had been opened and things could not return to the prewar norm no matter how badly men wanted that to be the case...I suspect too it took women a little while to realise that they were not really fullfilled back in the roles they had traditionally filled pre war....probably most women were torn between the two desires...for things to be back to 'normal' and to keep that sense of purpose/excitement that the war had exposed them to...imagine going from making fighters,bombers,tanks,bombs,bullets etc one day to "Thanks deary..off you toddle home and wait for your hero to return...oh and when he does tell him there's a job for him here."
A good mate of mine's first instructor was also a women....her picture is on the wall of the WLAC, and in numerous books on the subject...a tiny young women standing by the main wheel of the Stirling Bomber she has just delivered from the factory...she's barely taller than the wheel....early-mid 20s...imagine what a sense of achievement a women her age in that era must have felt....her chances of direct entry command to BOAC post war...absolutely fecking zero....can any of us imagine the Atlantic Barons tolerating a 5' nothing 'girl' in their midst?
Gender roles and expectations have been confused and turned upside down in the last 40 odd years....Lord knows how many 100s of years of conditioning all blown to hell...little wonder we still see attitudes of sexism.
But lets not lose sight totally of the downside to the great gender experiment we are living...for that is what it is...can anyone say society will not pay a price, some day, for leaving their kids at home alone or with strangers in a day care...'institutionalised from birth'...while both parents work for what ever reason..be it economic necesity (both real and imagined) or just plain 'I want it all...children and career'. Something has got to give...I think we see the beginnings of it now in modern youth...I think it is sad...I think the price society will pay for 'equality' will be greater than anybody can imagine...or is prepared to admit.
Probably, in light of all that has gone before, we are doing pretty darn well....for mere males.
That women were VERY good at it probably surprised the male powers that be...I can just imagine the relief the pollies and Generals felt when the WASPs so successfully contributed to the war effort.
It wasn't just the lady pilots who, mostly, ended up back in the kitchens bare foot and pregnant post war...it was millions of women who contributed in thousands of factories etc...no doubt the war was unwinable without their contributions.
1946 was a very different time and I can well imagine that many women were more than happy to see the war won and their men home...to return to what they were bought up to believe was their rightfull role..wives and mothers.
Clearly also pandoras box had been opened and things could not return to the prewar norm no matter how badly men wanted that to be the case...I suspect too it took women a little while to realise that they were not really fullfilled back in the roles they had traditionally filled pre war....probably most women were torn between the two desires...for things to be back to 'normal' and to keep that sense of purpose/excitement that the war had exposed them to...imagine going from making fighters,bombers,tanks,bombs,bullets etc one day to "Thanks deary..off you toddle home and wait for your hero to return...oh and when he does tell him there's a job for him here."
A good mate of mine's first instructor was also a women....her picture is on the wall of the WLAC, and in numerous books on the subject...a tiny young women standing by the main wheel of the Stirling Bomber she has just delivered from the factory...she's barely taller than the wheel....early-mid 20s...imagine what a sense of achievement a women her age in that era must have felt....her chances of direct entry command to BOAC post war...absolutely fecking zero....can any of us imagine the Atlantic Barons tolerating a 5' nothing 'girl' in their midst?
Gender roles and expectations have been confused and turned upside down in the last 40 odd years....Lord knows how many 100s of years of conditioning all blown to hell...little wonder we still see attitudes of sexism.
But lets not lose sight totally of the downside to the great gender experiment we are living...for that is what it is...can anyone say society will not pay a price, some day, for leaving their kids at home alone or with strangers in a day care...'institutionalised from birth'...while both parents work for what ever reason..be it economic necesity (both real and imagined) or just plain 'I want it all...children and career'. Something has got to give...I think we see the beginnings of it now in modern youth...I think it is sad...I think the price society will pay for 'equality' will be greater than anybody can imagine...or is prepared to admit.
Probably, in light of all that has gone before, we are doing pretty darn well....for mere males.
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Chimbu chuckles
You hit the nail on the head!
There is nothing wrong with female pilots, I have flown with three in particular that were not only much better looking than my average F/O but better company and all had a very good pair of hands!
BUT. . . .
The question keeps returning to old values and bringing up the children. My son is 13 going on 28 but he still loves having his mom around and whilst she works part time she also loves to be around him and the family in general.
We are not at war and we don't actually NEED these lady pilots. I am quite sure we could fill every seat both left and right with quality men which would leave our ladies time to take care of the family, teach the young ones the rules and make a home environment.
Maybe I am out of touch but hey it worked ok for hundreds of years so why mend something that is not broken?
There is nothing wrong with female pilots, I have flown with three in particular that were not only much better looking than my average F/O but better company and all had a very good pair of hands!
BUT. . . .
The question keeps returning to old values and bringing up the children. My son is 13 going on 28 but he still loves having his mom around and whilst she works part time she also loves to be around him and the family in general.
We are not at war and we don't actually NEED these lady pilots. I am quite sure we could fill every seat both left and right with quality men which would leave our ladies time to take care of the family, teach the young ones the rules and make a home environment.
Maybe I am out of touch but hey it worked ok for hundreds of years so why mend something that is not broken?
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Mercenary Ali, a touching scene of blissful domesticity. On the surface that is. Dig a bit deeper and we find some curious anomalies. The child is your son but he loves having his Mum around. No mention of your good self there; one wonders if the child, so conspicuously yours, enjoys having his father around? And do you as a father enjoy being around the family and do you enjoy bringing up your child?
Are you any good at it at all? Or is instilling values and raising your child strictly Mum's job? Seeing how much she enjoys being around him and the family?
I am merely asking Mercenary Ali, just curious.
BTW, you might not actually NEED these lady pilots, but who is to say they don't NEED to fly as badly as you do?
Oh and about the 'it worked ok for hundreds of years so why mend something that is not broken? May I suggest you do some reading up on your history? Just so you can in future avoid making statements of such patent silliness. Perhaps you do not enjoy doing historical research? Is that it?
In that case allow me to be of assistance and give you a potted version. ( I know that potted shrimp are a lot more enjoyable but I do so hate to see people making a fool of themselves on these boards)
For brevity's sake, lets start in the middle ages. Rural economies. Men and women participated equally in the task of working the land, running the small holding etc. Bring on the industrial revolution and economies change. Farming became more efficient, releasing large numbers of women and children to take their place at the loom and the workbench. More men came to rely upon selling their labour to employers, rather than relying upon the products of their own household. This meant people were suddenly competing for 'jobs'. As opposed to the old days were all able bodies were needed to keep famine and death at bay.
Next phase, Victorian times. In the competitive job market, getting rid of the women was a great strategy. So women were suddenly deemed too fragile to participate in the workforce. Forced to stay at home and look after the family.
Low and behold, less than 200 years later, people like Mercenari A are absolutely certain that women in the home is the natural order of things 'because it has always been so'.Looking at the history of humankind, 200 seems a rtaher meagre historical perspective. A xomforting one though mr A, very comforting. So do not let me wake you up. Dream on.
Chimbu, can anyone say society will not pay a price, some day, for leaving their kids at home alone or with strangers in a day care. Nope noone can say that. We don't know that yet. I do tend to think that your scenario is not the best for the kids though. But what does that have to do with this discussion?
Or are you, like Mercenary A perhaps, of the opinion that only females can successfully rear the young of our species? That would seem odd, taking into account how you yourself have, after a long battle, taken over the upbringing of your daughter and seem to be doing a very creditable job of it.
You mention the great gender experiment. I respectfully submit that in most of the world, the experiment hasn't even come half way yet.
Only when society makes it possible for both parents to have a share in the meaningful but often stultifyingly boring job of caring for their own young while they at the same time can have a career or a job that satifies and stimulates them, will the experiment have reached it's final result.
Fot what better way for a human being (regardless of gender) to pursue happiness than to be able to fill the full spectre of roles that give life meaning and depth.
Instead of having to live life effectively amputated from half of it's beauty.
Are you any good at it at all? Or is instilling values and raising your child strictly Mum's job? Seeing how much she enjoys being around him and the family?
I am merely asking Mercenary Ali, just curious.
BTW, you might not actually NEED these lady pilots, but who is to say they don't NEED to fly as badly as you do?
Oh and about the 'it worked ok for hundreds of years so why mend something that is not broken? May I suggest you do some reading up on your history? Just so you can in future avoid making statements of such patent silliness. Perhaps you do not enjoy doing historical research? Is that it?
In that case allow me to be of assistance and give you a potted version. ( I know that potted shrimp are a lot more enjoyable but I do so hate to see people making a fool of themselves on these boards)
For brevity's sake, lets start in the middle ages. Rural economies. Men and women participated equally in the task of working the land, running the small holding etc. Bring on the industrial revolution and economies change. Farming became more efficient, releasing large numbers of women and children to take their place at the loom and the workbench. More men came to rely upon selling their labour to employers, rather than relying upon the products of their own household. This meant people were suddenly competing for 'jobs'. As opposed to the old days were all able bodies were needed to keep famine and death at bay.
Next phase, Victorian times. In the competitive job market, getting rid of the women was a great strategy. So women were suddenly deemed too fragile to participate in the workforce. Forced to stay at home and look after the family.
Low and behold, less than 200 years later, people like Mercenari A are absolutely certain that women in the home is the natural order of things 'because it has always been so'.Looking at the history of humankind, 200 seems a rtaher meagre historical perspective. A xomforting one though mr A, very comforting. So do not let me wake you up. Dream on.
Chimbu, can anyone say society will not pay a price, some day, for leaving their kids at home alone or with strangers in a day care. Nope noone can say that. We don't know that yet. I do tend to think that your scenario is not the best for the kids though. But what does that have to do with this discussion?
Or are you, like Mercenary A perhaps, of the opinion that only females can successfully rear the young of our species? That would seem odd, taking into account how you yourself have, after a long battle, taken over the upbringing of your daughter and seem to be doing a very creditable job of it.
You mention the great gender experiment. I respectfully submit that in most of the world, the experiment hasn't even come half way yet.
Only when society makes it possible for both parents to have a share in the meaningful but often stultifyingly boring job of caring for their own young while they at the same time can have a career or a job that satifies and stimulates them, will the experiment have reached it's final result.
Fot what better way for a human being (regardless of gender) to pursue happiness than to be able to fill the full spectre of roles that give life meaning and depth.
Instead of having to live life effectively amputated from half of it's beauty.
Join Date: May 2004
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Shucks, small boys must be the only ones to enjoy a homey mum: Knowing when they're hungry so that they don't have to think about sustenance; patiently dressing their wounds when they hurt themselves because they disregard sensible warnings; washing their unneccessary dirty clothes from said activity. Little girls are alas in a different world – expected to take care of unruly classmates as well as brothers.
Mine was a full-time home-maker smothering me with "motherly love", insisting on teaching me how to take care of husband, household and children. I remember desperately wishing that she'd get a job and leave me with someone indifferent enough to let me read books in peace and quiet, letting me adapt to life outside home.
Perhaps small children actually benefit from proper day-care? If mum has an academic (etc) education she may not be satisfied by spending her days in the company of toddlers for years on end? Unfortunately society (men?) impose on mums only to take care of the offspring, whether they want to or not. This in the 21st century.
If a female breaks out of this system and chooses not to be burdened with children so that she can pursue a career instead, she'll encounter the "evil eye" from society, and may be harassed by conservative males at work. Like 100 years ago. If she tries to take care of both career and family, she'll be burned out. Because dad refuses to contribute.
And the world turns – ever so slowly.
New readers better start at page 1.
Mine was a full-time home-maker smothering me with "motherly love", insisting on teaching me how to take care of husband, household and children. I remember desperately wishing that she'd get a job and leave me with someone indifferent enough to let me read books in peace and quiet, letting me adapt to life outside home.
Perhaps small children actually benefit from proper day-care? If mum has an academic (etc) education she may not be satisfied by spending her days in the company of toddlers for years on end? Unfortunately society (men?) impose on mums only to take care of the offspring, whether they want to or not. This in the 21st century.
If a female breaks out of this system and chooses not to be burdened with children so that she can pursue a career instead, she'll encounter the "evil eye" from society, and may be harassed by conservative males at work. Like 100 years ago. If she tries to take care of both career and family, she'll be burned out. Because dad refuses to contribute.
And the world turns – ever so slowly.
New readers better start at page 1.
Join Date: Apr 2000
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Jet Legs el al.
Mercenary Ali, a touching scene of blissful domesticity. On the surface that is. Dig a bit deeper and we find some curious anomalies. The child is your son but he loves having his Mum around. No mention of your good self there; one wonders if the child, so conspicuously yours, enjoys having his father around?
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Ah! Yes of course and we have alot of fun together, music, computing and swimming but mothers and fathers have completely different things that we bring to our children; you may have noticed we ARE QUITE DIFFERENT!
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And do you as a father enjoy being around the family and do you enjoy bringing up your child?
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Yes I enjoy it immensely and of course whilst his mom teaches him the things she knows best we go hunting, fishing and cutting the logs - the things his mom is not too interested in!
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Are you any good at it at all? Or is instilling values and raising your child strictly Mum's job? Seeing how much she enjoys being around him and the family?
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I wish I knew if I am any good at it. My son seems to like being with me and doing "men things", perhaps only in the fullness of times shall we know if I was good at it at all! Up to now he seems a rather well rounded young chap (and I don't mean rotund round either)
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BTW, you might not actually NEED these lady pilots, but who is to say they don't NEED to fly as badly as you do?
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Well perhaps the husbands and children of these ladies NEED them more than aviation does and, call me "old fashioned" if you like but why would they need to fly, badly or otherwise, when they have a husband to take care of them?
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Oh! one last thing - I don't fly THAT BADLY !!and anyways for a young whipper-snapper you are taking a bit of a liberty even suggesting that my flying might not be up to scratch!! However after all these years it is a bit like riding a bike !! Hope I don't fall off too soon !! Ha Ha Ha
Happy Christmas and Prosperous New Year 2005 - Men Rule !!
Te he!!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Ah! Yes of course and we have alot of fun together, music, computing and swimming but mothers and fathers have completely different things that we bring to our children; you may have noticed we ARE QUITE DIFFERENT!
__________________________________________
And do you as a father enjoy being around the family and do you enjoy bringing up your child?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Yes I enjoy it immensely and of course whilst his mom teaches him the things she knows best we go hunting, fishing and cutting the logs - the things his mom is not too interested in!
__________________________________________
Are you any good at it at all? Or is instilling values and raising your child strictly Mum's job? Seeing how much she enjoys being around him and the family?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I wish I knew if I am any good at it. My son seems to like being with me and doing "men things", perhaps only in the fullness of times shall we know if I was good at it at all! Up to now he seems a rather well rounded young chap (and I don't mean rotund round either)
___________________________________________
BTW, you might not actually NEED these lady pilots, but who is to say they don't NEED to fly as badly as you do?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Well perhaps the husbands and children of these ladies NEED them more than aviation does and, call me "old fashioned" if you like but why would they need to fly, badly or otherwise, when they have a husband to take care of them?
____________________________________________
Oh! one last thing - I don't fly THAT BADLY !!and anyways for a young whipper-snapper you are taking a bit of a liberty even suggesting that my flying might not be up to scratch!! However after all these years it is a bit like riding a bike !! Hope I don't fall off too soon !! Ha Ha Ha
Happy Christmas and Prosperous New Year 2005 - Men Rule !!Te he!!