Crash near Bude, Cornwall: 24th July 2011
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Quite right Crab
unfortunately some just can't see it - do you want them to die or do you want to tell them how it works?
(incidentally in your exceptional case I am not sure you do understand how it works)
It's like explaining how to walk - it's easy to walk, hard if you can't and difficult to explain. If you can't walk perhaps you need to go on a CRM course and be told how wreckless arrogant and irresponsible you are? But I don't think it'll get you to walk.
Here's a crack at some fundamentals (bit of a rush):
1 You can't rely on seeing clouds to avoid them - they are often indistinct - you have to fly to places which are clearly not clouds. Positive assurance of flight path.
2 The furthest cue you can see is important you must keep being able to see it or further.
3 If the furthest cue disappears you must respond to that immediately (since you are on a path which will lead to IMC) even if you can still (for the time being) see a good distance.
4 You must have slowed already to a speed which permits you to slow further sufficiently whilst descending to maintain visual contact ahead of you.
5 The angle you can descend at is limited by your energy. You must not have so much energy that you are forced to fly horizontally when you need to be descending.
5.5 you need to keep your collective (energy input) loose and ready to change on a constantly re-evaluating basis - faster/slower higher/lower
6 You need to understand parallax. (like a piece of mountain's relative motion against its background) (same for clouds)
that's all for now , gotta go, must be many others who can complete this liost
most of us mere mortals think it is pretty straightforward
(incidentally in your exceptional case I am not sure you do understand how it works)
It's like explaining how to walk - it's easy to walk, hard if you can't and difficult to explain. If you can't walk perhaps you need to go on a CRM course and be told how wreckless arrogant and irresponsible you are? But I don't think it'll get you to walk.
Here's a crack at some fundamentals (bit of a rush):
1 You can't rely on seeing clouds to avoid them - they are often indistinct - you have to fly to places which are clearly not clouds. Positive assurance of flight path.
2 The furthest cue you can see is important you must keep being able to see it or further.
3 If the furthest cue disappears you must respond to that immediately (since you are on a path which will lead to IMC) even if you can still (for the time being) see a good distance.
4 You must have slowed already to a speed which permits you to slow further sufficiently whilst descending to maintain visual contact ahead of you.
5 The angle you can descend at is limited by your energy. You must not have so much energy that you are forced to fly horizontally when you need to be descending.
5.5 you need to keep your collective (energy input) loose and ready to change on a constantly re-evaluating basis - faster/slower higher/lower
6 You need to understand parallax. (like a piece of mountain's relative motion against its background) (same for clouds)
that's all for now , gotta go, must be many others who can complete this liost
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that's all for now , gotta go, must be many others who can complete this liost
Like in a helicopter you can go really slow and really low. So whats the problem?
Once practiced it becomes easy. In fact if you end up in the hover with the surface in sight, a 1500m vis is not even required to stay safe.
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quite right chopjock
other considerations become the limit - like practicality, politeness, 500ft rule etc - but it would never be danger (unless you are doing it wrong)
precisely - and the answer to that is; some (30% ish) can't see when and how to start slowing and descending - the first thing they see is nothing and never really know why.
The lethal cocktail is to teach people enough IRF skills to kill themselves , not show them how to stay Visual , and to give them BBrule No.1 with 1500m as the magic number when any visibility limit is arbitrary and will not reduce risk. It's wrong.
cont//...
7 Treat the furthest thing you can see as the 'End of Your World' , fly as if landing just before the End of the World, if the EotW becomes further as you get closer then you can still plan on flying to the new EotW instead, if the EotW never becomes further then you will have landed before it.
(I am not against Instrument Reference Flight training for all tho' - it's just not the answer to preventing IIMC)
other considerations become the limit - like practicality, politeness, 500ft rule etc - but it would never be danger (unless you are doing it wrong)
helicopter you can go really slow and really low. So whats the problem?
The lethal cocktail is to teach people enough IRF skills to kill themselves , not show them how to stay Visual , and to give them BBrule No.1 with 1500m as the magic number when any visibility limit is arbitrary and will not reduce risk. It's wrong.
cont//...
7 Treat the furthest thing you can see as the 'End of Your World' , fly as if landing just before the End of the World, if the EotW becomes further as you get closer then you can still plan on flying to the new EotW instead, if the EotW never becomes further then you will have landed before it.
(I am not against Instrument Reference Flight training for all tho' - it's just not the answer to preventing IIMC)
1 You can't rely on seeing clouds to avoid them - they are often indistinct - you have to fly to places which are clearly not clouds. Positive assurance of flight path.
2 The furthest cue you can see is important you must keep being able to see it or further.
3 If the furthest cue disappears you must respond to that immediately (since you are on a path which will lead to IMC) even if you can still (for the time being) see a good distance.
3 If the furthest cue disappears you must respond to that immediately (since you are on a path which will lead to IMC) even if you can still (for the time being) see a good distance.
4 You must have slowed already to a speed which permits you to slow further sufficiently whilst descending to maintain visual contact ahead of you.
5 The angle you can descend at is limited by your energy. You must not have so much energy that you are forced to fly horizontally when you need to be descending.
5.5 you need to keep your collective (energy input) loose and ready to change on a constantly re-evaluating basis - faster/slower higher/lower
5.5 you need to keep your collective (energy input) loose and ready to change on a constantly re-evaluating basis - faster/slower higher/lower
6 You need to understand parallax. (like a piece of mountain's relative motion against its background) (same for clouds)
7 Treat the furthest thing you can see as the 'End of Your World' , fly as if landing just before the End of the World, if the EotW becomes further as you get closer then you can still plan on flying to the new EotW instead, if the EotW never becomes further then you will have landed before it.
As I said, nothing new - just wrapped in pseudo-science and made up stuff
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crab
Not everyone else. I don't think you should turn round early.
I may not turn round until I had to. Even then, I might just land and wait. Or even grovel slowly on until an improvement in the vis. If I'm low and slow, what's the risk?
Turning round comes across as a failure, perhaps that's why some don't.
Everyone else says 'don't fly in the cloudbase, constantly assess the visibility and turn round early'
I may not turn round until I had to. Even then, I might just land and wait. Or even grovel slowly on until an improvement in the vis. If I'm low and slow, what's the risk?
Turning round comes across as a failure, perhaps that's why some don't.
Last edited by chopjock; 19th May 2012 at 15:53.
AnFi: I can't imagine letting you loose in a classroom full of newbie's. On the one hand you preach that the art/science that is the ability to identify oncoming danger cannot be taught ("like walking"), yet you obfuscate with a list of miscellaneous useless data (M.U.D) and confuse the listener even more about what to do???
Let me compare the problem (yet again) to another very real and very accurate analogy:
A 17yr old is taught to drive and then successfully pass their driving test. And for the next few weeks they BLINDINGLY and faithfully go forward and drive at night, on the motorway, in heavy rain/sleet or snow, in heavy traffic.......and 99% of them survive. Why is that? Have they been shown the way
Have they had CRM lessons for cars 
Of course not - they fall back on a mixture of instinct and an inherent desire to survive at all costs.
This too, happens in the aviation world, where the PPL is taken so far by the apparatus and then released into the big bad world. The gene pool does the rest.
I really don't know where you are going with this relentless mantra of yours.....it is as if....after a while....you will expose the true meaning of life to the aviation world. {All hail AnFI}.
Or maybe not
Chopjock: I love you. Every post a cracker. What an attractive ethos:
When in doubt keep going...just in case it gets better. Don't turn back "too early".
And the piece de resistance: Fly low and slow....Mmmmmm poetry in motion. Another one please? Pretty please.....[Senior Pilot can you invent a smilie for Wa*ker?]
Let me compare the problem (yet again) to another very real and very accurate analogy:
A 17yr old is taught to drive and then successfully pass their driving test. And for the next few weeks they BLINDINGLY and faithfully go forward and drive at night, on the motorway, in heavy rain/sleet or snow, in heavy traffic.......and 99% of them survive. Why is that? Have they been shown the way
Have they had CRM lessons for cars Of course not - they fall back on a mixture of instinct and an inherent desire to survive at all costs.This too, happens in the aviation world, where the PPL is taken so far by the apparatus and then released into the big bad world. The gene pool does the rest.
I really don't know where you are going with this relentless mantra of yours.....it is as if....after a while....you will expose the true meaning of life to the aviation world. {All hail AnFI}.
Or maybe not
Chopjock: I love you. Every post a cracker. What an attractive ethos:
When in doubt keep going...just in case it gets better. Don't turn back "too early".
And the piece de resistance: Fly low and slow....Mmmmmm poetry in motion. Another one please? Pretty please.....[Senior Pilot can you invent a smilie for Wa*ker?]
Last edited by Thomas coupling; 19th May 2012 at 16:28.
Avoid imitations
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I really don't think there's any great secret to this. The RAF classifies this as a "lack of awareness" or "lack of capacity".
Thankfully, most who suffered from it in training were removed from the course at some stage or other. I think it just comes from a lack of sufficient brain processing power to cope with more than just flying the aircraft. A lack of the ability to multi-task sufficiently, if you like.
Perhaps tens of thousands of years ago, some of their ancestors would have been caught and eaten by what other men were catching and eating.
Thankfully, most who suffered from it in training were removed from the course at some stage or other. I think it just comes from a lack of sufficient brain processing power to cope with more than just flying the aircraft. A lack of the ability to multi-task sufficiently, if you like.
Perhaps tens of thousands of years ago, some of their ancestors would have been caught and eaten by what other men were catching and eating.
Maybe his ideas are just a rehash of whats out there ....but i see no harm in putting it out again in a different way .....you have to admit the way we are teaching and training pilots IS letting them down ....they ARE dying , so what have we to lose ??
Some of what Chopjock and ANFI say i do agree with ( not all ...).
Even at the risk of being mauled by that pussycat TC ( Top Cat ) i know that you CAN fly safely in v low cloud ( say 250-300 ft ) . If you know your route and get below the cloud you can often have good viz ....certainly 3 -5 km . And if you fly at a speed that gives you plenty of time to see obstacles and do a 180 within your vision to my mind that IS safe . Most of us who fly up north fly in this sort of weather all the time and without bashing into things
I think the confusion comes in when people take the view that you should not encourage low time pilots to do this .....quite correct and i certainly didnt fly in the type of conditions when i had 500 hrs as i do now .
I have always believed that you should be flown out towards crap weather by an experienced pilot and see where he turns back , which way he turns , what speed he comes up to it at etc etc You may find that you may have pushed further ....and that in itself is a lesson .
In any event always fun to imagine TC , Silsoe and Crabs moustaches bristling with indignation at the impudence of you little civvies ANFI and Chop ....
Some of what Chopjock and ANFI say i do agree with ( not all ...).
Even at the risk of being mauled by that pussycat TC ( Top Cat ) i know that you CAN fly safely in v low cloud ( say 250-300 ft ) . If you know your route and get below the cloud you can often have good viz ....certainly 3 -5 km . And if you fly at a speed that gives you plenty of time to see obstacles and do a 180 within your vision to my mind that IS safe . Most of us who fly up north fly in this sort of weather all the time and without bashing into things
I think the confusion comes in when people take the view that you should not encourage low time pilots to do this .....quite correct and i certainly didnt fly in the type of conditions when i had 500 hrs as i do now .I have always believed that you should be flown out towards crap weather by an experienced pilot and see where he turns back , which way he turns , what speed he comes up to it at etc etc You may find that you may have pushed further ....and that in itself is a lesson .
In any event always fun to imagine TC , Silsoe and Crabs moustaches bristling with indignation at the impudence of you little civvies ANFI and Chop ....
Last edited by nigelh; 19th May 2012 at 17:59.
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About ten years ago I flew a charter passenger and some of his mates for a boys weekend away, he holds a PPL and flies an R 44, but needed to take 6 so he hired from us and I got the job of flying them.
We left London in viz of 600m and a cloudbase of 250-300ft. As we went IMC he (sitting LHS so he could "help me when I needed it") became quite nervous, we didn't see a thing until 200' on the ILS the other end, all the way he kept saying " I could never, ever do this."
Turned out he'd got himself IMC by accident a little while before and nearly killed himself, his wife and his daughter, coming out of clouds, almost out of control and just missing some power cables. To this day his wife will not fly with him and has banned the kids from flying with him. He told me that the control loss happened in the 180 turn he tried to make, that in cloud he could see nothing, with foggles he could always see a little bit. Looking at the cockpit of his aircraft the thing that struck me was the fact that the AI and HSI are set incredibly low and so you are in an unnatural position for IF with your in-built balance mechanisms at a strange tilt giving a built in version of the leans. I suspect from his description of the weather and the turbulence he may have been in a small, embedded Cu and that the turbulence played havoc with his already overloaded mind and senses.
I sat in the cockpit and put on a pair of foggles and was staggered by how much of the outside world I could see. I'm not an instructor, but I do have 9 500 rotary hours another 4 500 fixed wing and IRs on both and that makes me question just how many PPLs doing instrument appreciation are really on instruments and how many are dishonestly sneaking a peek outside, no-one can really tell, but there are enough AAIB reports to suggest to me that a lot of them are, and very few of them understand the weather properly, or the concept of arranging your flight in bounds. I.e. I can see the next bound 5 miles ahead so all is well at my speed and altitude, I can't see the next bound so slow down, is my altitude ok? How much of the weather is at my altitude? If its a lot I need to change my heading or altitude or speed. Now I need to start re-planning, do I need to turn back? is it worse behind me now? do I need help to find an airfield and land? Do I need to tell my ego to f*$% right off because actually I'm quite scared and I want down?
Like (I suspect) many on here I can imagine what was going through the mind of the pilot of this aircraft and it is not pretty. I have heard a pilot panicking with his TX held open and it was the stuff of nightmares, I truly feel for the Newquay controller who heard this, just as I feel for the Bournemouth controller listening to the pilot of the A109 who crashed on approach in poorish wx at night in 2004.
Flying is a big boys passtime/profession (or girls) it can take the fun away in seconds, if you allow dishonest training, ego or arrogance it will kill you in the same time.
Just my 2d worth
SND
Nigelh; You've actually hit part of it on the head, make the 180 turn while you can still see. Do it in the cloud and your'e probably screwed.
We left London in viz of 600m and a cloudbase of 250-300ft. As we went IMC he (sitting LHS so he could "help me when I needed it") became quite nervous, we didn't see a thing until 200' on the ILS the other end, all the way he kept saying " I could never, ever do this."
Turned out he'd got himself IMC by accident a little while before and nearly killed himself, his wife and his daughter, coming out of clouds, almost out of control and just missing some power cables. To this day his wife will not fly with him and has banned the kids from flying with him. He told me that the control loss happened in the 180 turn he tried to make, that in cloud he could see nothing, with foggles he could always see a little bit. Looking at the cockpit of his aircraft the thing that struck me was the fact that the AI and HSI are set incredibly low and so you are in an unnatural position for IF with your in-built balance mechanisms at a strange tilt giving a built in version of the leans. I suspect from his description of the weather and the turbulence he may have been in a small, embedded Cu and that the turbulence played havoc with his already overloaded mind and senses.
I sat in the cockpit and put on a pair of foggles and was staggered by how much of the outside world I could see. I'm not an instructor, but I do have 9 500 rotary hours another 4 500 fixed wing and IRs on both and that makes me question just how many PPLs doing instrument appreciation are really on instruments and how many are dishonestly sneaking a peek outside, no-one can really tell, but there are enough AAIB reports to suggest to me that a lot of them are, and very few of them understand the weather properly, or the concept of arranging your flight in bounds. I.e. I can see the next bound 5 miles ahead so all is well at my speed and altitude, I can't see the next bound so slow down, is my altitude ok? How much of the weather is at my altitude? If its a lot I need to change my heading or altitude or speed. Now I need to start re-planning, do I need to turn back? is it worse behind me now? do I need help to find an airfield and land? Do I need to tell my ego to f*$% right off because actually I'm quite scared and I want down?
Like (I suspect) many on here I can imagine what was going through the mind of the pilot of this aircraft and it is not pretty. I have heard a pilot panicking with his TX held open and it was the stuff of nightmares, I truly feel for the Newquay controller who heard this, just as I feel for the Bournemouth controller listening to the pilot of the A109 who crashed on approach in poorish wx at night in 2004.
Flying is a big boys passtime/profession (or girls) it can take the fun away in seconds, if you allow dishonest training, ego or arrogance it will kill you in the same time.
Just my 2d worth
SND
Nigelh; You've actually hit part of it on the head, make the 180 turn while you can still see. Do it in the cloud and your'e probably screwed.
Last edited by Sir Niall Dementia; 19th May 2012 at 18:03.
Silsoe
Sorry mate really dont know where you are coming from here. Any good instructor will tell his students to talk themselves through the flight ( yes ask any of mine to see if i have taught them that) Why dont you answer the question reference the owners and what you would do to improve things. From what i have seen so far you sit on a hobby horse preaching but cant come up with a sensible practical answer other than crm. Sorry it is not for the private owner, he has few people to look up to and get advice from look at chopjock. I have passed chopjock on an LPC, he handles the machine very very well, as to his attitude I will leave that to his posts and replies. The point being I could fail him ( and have a reg 6 appeal) but it does not stop him from flying ( licence or no current licence), i can pass him on handling the helicopter but if he chooses to fly in less than 1500m and 500ft away then you, me the archbishop of canterbury cannot stop him.
All we can do is preach to those who wish to listen, even then crm is the classic subjective/objective thing. Can you actually pass or fail someone on crm, not really. Yes in a public transport company as head of training or chief pilot you can stop things or try and change attitudes. Outside that it aint going to happen.
If you were Fred Cross chief helicopter examiner with a free hand with EASA what would you change ?
Sorry mate really dont know where you are coming from here. Any good instructor will tell his students to talk themselves through the flight ( yes ask any of mine to see if i have taught them that) Why dont you answer the question reference the owners and what you would do to improve things. From what i have seen so far you sit on a hobby horse preaching but cant come up with a sensible practical answer other than crm. Sorry it is not for the private owner, he has few people to look up to and get advice from look at chopjock. I have passed chopjock on an LPC, he handles the machine very very well, as to his attitude I will leave that to his posts and replies. The point being I could fail him ( and have a reg 6 appeal) but it does not stop him from flying ( licence or no current licence), i can pass him on handling the helicopter but if he chooses to fly in less than 1500m and 500ft away then you, me the archbishop of canterbury cannot stop him.
All we can do is preach to those who wish to listen, even then crm is the classic subjective/objective thing. Can you actually pass or fail someone on crm, not really. Yes in a public transport company as head of training or chief pilot you can stop things or try and change attitudes. Outside that it aint going to happen.
If you were Fred Cross chief helicopter examiner with a free hand with EASA what would you change ?
I have no way of knowing but i think that most cases of flying into cloud will be done at or around say 80-100 knots , or at a relatively high speed . The training i would like to see is the fact that you could ( IF YOU WANTED TO ...) fly right up to a fog bank or low cloud and safely get within say 50 m of it .....but that would be at hover taxi speed . I am guessing ,but at say 35-40kn you could do a 180 within 100 m . The point i am making is that speed is actually more important than altitude . Speed stops you having the ability to lose hight rapidly , turn 180 rapidly ....the 2 things that you REALLY need to do rapidly . You even have the option of stopping while still going in the direction you are looking ( quick stop ) ....this could be the best action if you have gone into a suckers hole ....but lets not go there ...
Hughes ..just seen your post and couldnt agree more . I am not advocating flying in the sort of weather you mentioned . I would bin the flight even if it were a lot better than that because i do not tempt fate . I was very lucky that my early flying was in a professional company with a CP . What we really need is a professional pilot allocated to every new ppl , and he answers all those questions you never asked during the course .....he checks the weather on a day you are thinking of flying and CAN stop you . I think great idea but no idea who would be willing to do it or who would pay ....
as i think you sort of pointed out ...you can teach a monkey to fly a helicopter beautifully .....its never the skill that lets you down ....its the attitude that gets you killed . I really believe that .
Hughes ..just seen your post and couldnt agree more . I am not advocating flying in the sort of weather you mentioned . I would bin the flight even if it were a lot better than that because i do not tempt fate . I was very lucky that my early flying was in a professional company with a CP . What we really need is a professional pilot allocated to every new ppl , and he answers all those questions you never asked during the course .....he checks the weather on a day you are thinking of flying and CAN stop you . I think great idea but no idea who would be willing to do it or who would pay ....
as i think you sort of pointed out ...you can teach a monkey to fly a helicopter beautifully .....its never the skill that lets you down ....its the attitude that gets you killed . I really believe that .
Last edited by nigelh; 19th May 2012 at 18:33.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Hughesey, you're absolutely correct.
Much like driving tests, public awareness programmes, speed awareness courses, etc, you can tell people all the relevant information you like, but some will still drive without a seatbelt, with children on peoples laps, while texting, be 'hands-on' the phone, doing make up, undertaking, racing etc etc. things they know they shouldn't do, but still do.
How many incidents talked about on the rotorhead forums have been weather related for example? Much to your dissapointment, IMHO a greater awareness of CRM may well reduce these incidents.
Met is a subject that is part of the syllabus, so the problem isn't not knowing what the weather is doing or more importantly going to do, the problem is recognising that there is a point at which you should just not launch despite it being 8/8 blue at the departure point!
However, despite Met being taught on the course, some will still launch because the weather is nice where they are and they are prepared to take a chance on how things pan out later on in the flight. (Much like this threads incident!) How difficult is it to say to a friend/pax/business that you cant complete the flight, when the departure point and arrival points are in clear weather, yet in between it's cack?
Perhaps attending a CRM course will give the confidence to actually say 'No' when it is needed. You may well get it wrong a couple of times in your flying 'career', but better to get it wrong a few times and end up driving when you could have flown, than to get it wrong just that once, when you flew when you should have driven.
You will not prevent some from pushing on despite them seeing the slices lining up, but even in those cases they know what they are doing and just hope that the last slice doesn't complete the line-up....only in the very last 10 seconds do they realise their mistake.
Unfortunately, it's the ones that don't even know about the slices in the first place that ultimately end up in a report.
Having attended a 'Speed Awareness Course', I would like to see a 10 yearly attendance for all drivers. This would coincide with renewing your license. However we all know that won't go down too well, not just because of a cost, but everyone is such a good driver!
To do a similar thing in the private flying world, with a SP CRM course every 5/10 yrs for example, will see us ending up with the most active thread PPRuNe has ever seen!
Much like driving tests, public awareness programmes, speed awareness courses, etc, you can tell people all the relevant information you like, but some will still drive without a seatbelt, with children on peoples laps, while texting, be 'hands-on' the phone, doing make up, undertaking, racing etc etc. things they know they shouldn't do, but still do.
How many incidents talked about on the rotorhead forums have been weather related for example? Much to your dissapointment, IMHO a greater awareness of CRM may well reduce these incidents.
Met is a subject that is part of the syllabus, so the problem isn't not knowing what the weather is doing or more importantly going to do, the problem is recognising that there is a point at which you should just not launch despite it being 8/8 blue at the departure point!
However, despite Met being taught on the course, some will still launch because the weather is nice where they are and they are prepared to take a chance on how things pan out later on in the flight. (Much like this threads incident!) How difficult is it to say to a friend/pax/business that you cant complete the flight, when the departure point and arrival points are in clear weather, yet in between it's cack?
Perhaps attending a CRM course will give the confidence to actually say 'No' when it is needed. You may well get it wrong a couple of times in your flying 'career', but better to get it wrong a few times and end up driving when you could have flown, than to get it wrong just that once, when you flew when you should have driven.
You will not prevent some from pushing on despite them seeing the slices lining up, but even in those cases they know what they are doing and just hope that the last slice doesn't complete the line-up....only in the very last 10 seconds do they realise their mistake.
Unfortunately, it's the ones that don't even know about the slices in the first place that ultimately end up in a report.
If you were Fred Cross chief helicopter examiner with a free hand with EASA what would you change ?
To do a similar thing in the private flying world, with a SP CRM course every 5/10 yrs for example, will see us ending up with the most active thread PPRuNe has ever seen!
Silsoe
Like your idea, i would actually take it further, not call it crm to the private pilot but call it " captaincy". As crm to the average pilot means multi crew in the professional world! I would link it, like an opc to the yearly lpc, difficult I know, when quite often you are checking people you have never flown with before and with no idea of their history ( although this can be a good thing).
Brings me on nicely to the 5 hours of instrument appreciation which is about to be dropped by EASA to the hours required to compete a 180 degree turn under the hood +/- 150 ft. Up to now I have worried about instrument appreciation. I have tended to spend a couple of hours flying in bad weather, thick haze on sunny days etc etc to show ppl's how easy it can be to loose it and what to do, at what point it is better to turn back or land.
However for some this is a licence to get press onitis because I have " been taught " what to do
Perhaps the answer is a sim where these things can be truly tested, but that would put an end to private flying from a cost point of view. oh to be in an ideal world !!
SS safe flying to you
Like your idea, i would actually take it further, not call it crm to the private pilot but call it " captaincy". As crm to the average pilot means multi crew in the professional world! I would link it, like an opc to the yearly lpc, difficult I know, when quite often you are checking people you have never flown with before and with no idea of their history ( although this can be a good thing).
Brings me on nicely to the 5 hours of instrument appreciation which is about to be dropped by EASA to the hours required to compete a 180 degree turn under the hood +/- 150 ft. Up to now I have worried about instrument appreciation. I have tended to spend a couple of hours flying in bad weather, thick haze on sunny days etc etc to show ppl's how easy it can be to loose it and what to do, at what point it is better to turn back or land.
However for some this is a licence to get press onitis because I have " been taught " what to do
Perhaps the answer is a sim where these things can be truly tested, but that would put an end to private flying from a cost point of view. oh to be in an ideal world !!
SS safe flying to you
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Shy Torque, fantastic quotation:
Perhaps tens of thousands of years ago, some of their ancestors would have been caught and eaten by what other men were catching and eating.
Love it.
That should be plaquarded on every helicopter, in full view of the pilot and passengers. Not only for PPLs, but for professional pilots too.
We all seem to have homed in on the 1500m vis limit. I have about 11,500 hours, of which, 10,000+ have been flown VFR in the Weedesphere. If I find myself in visibility of 1500m, I seriously have to ask myself why I am there, what am I going to achieve, and how can I justify this if it goes wrong? 1500m is not a guide to what is acceptable, it's the absolute legal minimum in some countries.
With technology as it is today, I'd like to see some sort of on-board, low-cost sensor that gives a fairly accurate visibility reading. It could even be linked in to your GPS/moving map. Something like this could be pre-set with warnings for those that need them. At 1500m the plaquard above should flash. Mind you, the cowboys would ignore that too, and who is going to pay for the development of something that is relevant to such a minority, who will most likely ignore it anyway....this is why I'm not an inventor.
Seriously, don't we just need to be taking responsibility for the situations we put ourselves into, and instilling that in other pilots too, instead of looking for excuses or for a training programme to blame. Certainly in the British Military, the occasional hanging helped with the responsibility issue.
TM
Perhaps tens of thousands of years ago, some of their ancestors would have been caught and eaten by what other men were catching and eating.
Love it.
That should be plaquarded on every helicopter, in full view of the pilot and passengers. Not only for PPLs, but for professional pilots too.
We all seem to have homed in on the 1500m vis limit. I have about 11,500 hours, of which, 10,000+ have been flown VFR in the Weedesphere. If I find myself in visibility of 1500m, I seriously have to ask myself why I am there, what am I going to achieve, and how can I justify this if it goes wrong? 1500m is not a guide to what is acceptable, it's the absolute legal minimum in some countries.
With technology as it is today, I'd like to see some sort of on-board, low-cost sensor that gives a fairly accurate visibility reading. It could even be linked in to your GPS/moving map. Something like this could be pre-set with warnings for those that need them. At 1500m the plaquard above should flash. Mind you, the cowboys would ignore that too, and who is going to pay for the development of something that is relevant to such a minority, who will most likely ignore it anyway....this is why I'm not an inventor.
Seriously, don't we just need to be taking responsibility for the situations we put ourselves into, and instilling that in other pilots too, instead of looking for excuses or for a training programme to blame. Certainly in the British Military, the occasional hanging helped with the responsibility issue.
TM
The buzzword in the Australian system is TEM: Threat and Error Management. Students are taught to recognise the Threat (poor weather) and Manage the outcome, thus avoiding going into IIMC and not needing the false security of thinking they know how to get out of IMC when they shouldn't be in it in the first place.
CASA Day VFR Syllabus (Helicopters).
GAPAN Australia produced a TEM Training Package for instructors, which is available from GAPAN Australia or CASA, who cover it in CAAP 5.59-1(0).
CASA Day VFR Syllabus (Helicopters).
GAPAN Australia produced a TEM Training Package for instructors, which is available from GAPAN Australia or CASA, who cover it in CAAP 5.59-1(0).
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Reading the embarrassing guff written by our Captaincy-challenged contributors (do you really have licences?) I can understand why VFR helicopters continue have weather related accidents. It is not flying into cloud that will kill you (if you know how to get out of it) - it is the impact with the hillside that will do it. Standby for the next one.....
Not a very useful post . If you have issues with certain posters name them and use your considerable expertise to help them in the right direction ......there is nothing clever in saying " until the next one "
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Other professional aviators with considerable experience and knowledge appear to have tried with negative results and I have no intention of banging my head against the same wall.
If the cap fits....
If the cap fits....
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Shame on me??? I fly in cloud every day and I'm still alive and kicking. You see I am trained and qualified to do it.
If you are a PPL with no IR and just fly for fun then don't fly in IMC. It is not rocket science. If you do not know what IMC is then you should not hold a licence - even a PPL.
If you are a PPL with no IR and just fly for fun then don't fly in IMC. It is not rocket science. If you do not know what IMC is then you should not hold a licence - even a PPL.
Last edited by Epiphany; 20th May 2012 at 18:17.