Crash near Bude, Cornwall: 24th July 2011
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I'll play that game...
Although there is a slight wiff of 'Troll' .... I'm happy to play that game and 'diagnose' if you are part of the 20% or not - I don't mind looking foolish just on the off-chance that you really are part of the 20%... that do in fact need to be shown something to stay alive ....
obviously this will be boring and painful for the 80% who can't see that there is a 20% ... or indeed anything to do other than look out of the window.
If we play then you need to agree to these rules:
1 you agree to give truthful answers
2 you don't let you ego exaggerate
3 you answer the questions
Do you agree?
Presuming you are a good sport and agree...
The first questions are:
When you ran out of vmc and 'punched up' how high were you?
How fast were you going?
Did you have the choice ?
Were you forced to 'punch up' because you ran out of vmc unexpectedly?
Would it have been easily possible at your height and speed to have slowed sufficiently or altered course to maintain good Visual References?
Were you at the time of running out of Visual References in an IMC equipped helicopter and did you possess the skill required to easily switch to IRF? (money on that answer for 'Trolls')
Were you actually trying to keep visual references and believe you were unable to for some reason?
Were you over the sea in a hazy environment?
Agree/Play?
obviously this will be boring and painful for the 80% who can't see that there is a 20% ... or indeed anything to do other than look out of the window.
If we play then you need to agree to these rules:
1 you agree to give truthful answers
2 you don't let you ego exaggerate
3 you answer the questions
Do you agree?
Presuming you are a good sport and agree...
The first questions are:
When you ran out of vmc and 'punched up' how high were you?
How fast were you going?
Did you have the choice ?
Were you forced to 'punch up' because you ran out of vmc unexpectedly?
Would it have been easily possible at your height and speed to have slowed sufficiently or altered course to maintain good Visual References?
Were you at the time of running out of Visual References in an IMC equipped helicopter and did you possess the skill required to easily switch to IRF? (money on that answer for 'Trolls')
Were you actually trying to keep visual references and believe you were unable to for some reason?
Were you over the sea in a hazy environment?
Agree/Play?
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FFS
It was a simple enough request*. What are the 'techniques for guarding visual references' you are on about? If you can't manage a straight answer then just forget it.
*it's a tad ironic that you previously criticised your fellow posters for not addressing the substance of your point. I don't really think I could have addressed it more directly. Alas to no avail
*it's a tad ironic that you previously criticised your fellow posters for not addressing the substance of your point. I don't really think I could have addressed it more directly. Alas to no avail
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JFC
I just got back from a great holiday in Coasta Rica and am astounded that this is ongoing without going anywhere!
I think it has to be time to move on. AnFi, if you have a solution let the rest of us have it, please. If all you have are brilliant ideas, don't bother, we all have plenty of those.
Do something with your theories/hypotheses, I mean something real, take them to flight safety meetings and discuss them, help people understand what you believe to be true. I am sure that is what you have tried here but it has failed and now you are a distraction.
Tam Macklin out!
I just got back from a great holiday in Coasta Rica and am astounded that this is ongoing without going anywhere!
I think it has to be time to move on. AnFi, if you have a solution let the rest of us have it, please. If all you have are brilliant ideas, don't bother, we all have plenty of those.
Do something with your theories/hypotheses, I mean something real, take them to flight safety meetings and discuss them, help people understand what you believe to be true. I am sure that is what you have tried here but it has failed and now you are a distraction.
Tam Macklin out!
Costa Rica!!! All right for some Tam
AnFI is just trolling - he does not have any real information to impart, repeatedly evades questions about his experience and qualifications (although he says he has a PPLH, not sure how current he is), has a big problem with instrument rated pilots because we clearly never fly VFR
and probably writes self-help books in his spare time - you know the ones where you wade through pages and pages of psycho-babble, half truths and misleading promises only to discover that there is no special truth, technique or magical ingredient - just like his posts on here.
AnFI I don't think you are a moron but you are certainly not a professional pilot in any way, shape or form.
AnFI is just trolling - he does not have any real information to impart, repeatedly evades questions about his experience and qualifications (although he says he has a PPLH, not sure how current he is), has a big problem with instrument rated pilots because we clearly never fly VFR
and probably writes self-help books in his spare time - you know the ones where you wade through pages and pages of psycho-babble, half truths and misleading promises only to discover that there is no special truth, technique or magical ingredient - just like his posts on here.AnFI I don't think you are a moron but you are certainly not a professional pilot in any way, shape or form.
Avoid imitations
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When my kids squabbled like this I used to put them outside with a football. 
Did someone say Costa Rica? Just got back from there myself - amazing place...
AnFI - I don't think you're a moron either (even though you've obviously confused yourself and got into a tizzy over the 'entrepreneur/ego/darwin thang') but if you're to retain any credibility at all, you really need to explain to us eager, but clearly mis-guided souls, exactly what this foolproof technique is; in simple and straight forward terms. What is it exactly?? Please don't replay your previous ramblings yet again (with the greatest respect).
TTB
AnFI - I don't think you're a moron either (even though you've obviously confused yourself and got into a tizzy over the 'entrepreneur/ego/darwin thang') but if you're to retain any credibility at all, you really need to explain to us eager, but clearly mis-guided souls, exactly what this foolproof technique is; in simple and straight forward terms. What is it exactly?? Please don't replay your previous ramblings yet again (with the greatest respect).
TTB
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.... still verbose - sorry
TTB: thanks for throwing me a bone ... I'll try and clearly state my point:
I contend that 20% of sub 500hr PPLH's do not have the skills required to avoid IIMC.
These skills are not particularly special - more than 80% of this readership will exercise these skills automatically without being aware that they are even exercising any particular skills.
The skills may be quite complex - we are capable of quite complex processing without it being a challenge - or even being consciously aware of it.
We can see that in the example where the bird "uses Tau to avoid bumping into and landing on branches" - the bird has not been 'trained' and certainly cannot write down what he does. Writing it down and analysing it would appear to be quite complex (although it is not really all that complex at all).
Since they are not rare skills they could be explained by anyone here who uses them .... they may in fact be relatively complex to describe... I have invited people here to analyse and describe what it is they actually do ... with no responses.
It is extra ordinary to observe someone who cannot exercise these basic skills...
They are not taught and they are not tested.
Anyone here could try and identify what they are (but try and give it a little thought first .... please)
It is not realistic nor acceptable to suggest that they should not be flying (since they are) and it is even less acceptable their Inevitable deaths should be joked about as Darwin at work ... when something could be done to save their lives and the misery caused.
I don't have a problem with IRF flight per se - I think it is great fun, rewarding, occasionally useful etc.
I do have a major problem with the unacceptable mis-application of IRF principles into advice to 'baby' PPL's - for example; Crabs that "IIMC can happen to anyone", that a scan is the answer, that an IRF minimum control speed has any relevance in VRF etc - just way too slack headed if IIMC is likely to be fatal....
Step out of your familiar world for just a second ... let's solve this..
It's no fun being slapped around the head by a bunch of bullying Fish Heads - especially when you're only trying to help...
OFF TOPIC: Costa Rica! Fantastic - got rid of their Military in 1947 - put the budget into education - nice people. Great place to fly ... did you get down to the Peninsula de Osa? See the Chain of volcanos down the center of the country? Did you see the banana strips? Swim in the Carribean side? Get sun burned? The downside of having no military is that the Nicaraguans are carving through the North East to make their canal ... and there's not much the CR's can do about it - so you do need a military which at least believes it has the best training in the world...
I contend that 20% of sub 500hr PPLH's do not have the skills required to avoid IIMC.
These skills are not particularly special - more than 80% of this readership will exercise these skills automatically without being aware that they are even exercising any particular skills.
The skills may be quite complex - we are capable of quite complex processing without it being a challenge - or even being consciously aware of it.
We can see that in the example where the bird "uses Tau to avoid bumping into and landing on branches" - the bird has not been 'trained' and certainly cannot write down what he does. Writing it down and analysing it would appear to be quite complex (although it is not really all that complex at all).
Since they are not rare skills they could be explained by anyone here who uses them .... they may in fact be relatively complex to describe... I have invited people here to analyse and describe what it is they actually do ... with no responses.
It is extra ordinary to observe someone who cannot exercise these basic skills...
They are not taught and they are not tested.
Anyone here could try and identify what they are (but try and give it a little thought first .... please)
It is not realistic nor acceptable to suggest that they should not be flying (since they are) and it is even less acceptable their Inevitable deaths should be joked about as Darwin at work ... when something could be done to save their lives and the misery caused.
I don't have a problem with IRF flight per se - I think it is great fun, rewarding, occasionally useful etc.
I do have a major problem with the unacceptable mis-application of IRF principles into advice to 'baby' PPL's - for example; Crabs that "IIMC can happen to anyone", that a scan is the answer, that an IRF minimum control speed has any relevance in VRF etc - just way too slack headed if IIMC is likely to be fatal....
Step out of your familiar world for just a second ... let's solve this..
It's no fun being slapped around the head by a bunch of bullying Fish Heads - especially when you're only trying to help...
OFF TOPIC: Costa Rica! Fantastic - got rid of their Military in 1947 - put the budget into education - nice people. Great place to fly ... did you get down to the Peninsula de Osa? See the Chain of volcanos down the center of the country? Did you see the banana strips? Swim in the Carribean side? Get sun burned? The downside of having no military is that the Nicaraguans are carving through the North East to make their canal ... and there's not much the CR's can do about it - so you do need a military which at least believes it has the best training in the world...
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RTFQ
oh yea ... it doesn't say what those techniques are.... but since 80% of you could write that part (if you took the time to analyse it)... why don't you?
My spin on it is unlikely to be particularly special (I'd hope)
... I don't mind having a go at expressing them.... if no-one else feels up to it... but there's no reason anyone shouldn't write that part.
(fluid collective, vertical angle to the boundary of your Visible World, angular rates, vigilant to the furthest and critical reference in any direction, determine certain absence of cloud as opposed to relying on actually seeing all clouds - since they may not be determinable, energy trap, rate of change of distance to furthest Visible Cue, fly like you're intending to land just before the furthest thing you can see - instead of having a 'certain to continue' frame of mind, if bad wx you encounter enroute is actually dangerous - then you are not doing it right. etc etc)
.... all just the basic stuff everyone does... nothing special almost any one experienced could do it.. just needs to be formalised and taught...
My spin on it is unlikely to be particularly special (I'd hope)
... I don't mind having a go at expressing them.... if no-one else feels up to it... but there's no reason anyone shouldn't write that part.
(fluid collective, vertical angle to the boundary of your Visible World, angular rates, vigilant to the furthest and critical reference in any direction, determine certain absence of cloud as opposed to relying on actually seeing all clouds - since they may not be determinable, energy trap, rate of change of distance to furthest Visible Cue, fly like you're intending to land just before the furthest thing you can see - instead of having a 'certain to continue' frame of mind, if bad wx you encounter enroute is actually dangerous - then you are not doing it right. etc etc)
.... all just the basic stuff everyone does... nothing special almost any one experienced could do it.. just needs to be formalised and taught...
Yaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwnnnnnn
If you are so maxed out just flying the helicopter that you can't make decisions about visibility and cloudbase then only go flying on really nice days - there is no 'human right' to aviate and it's not other people's fault that some can't do it very well.
If you are so maxed out just flying the helicopter that you can't make decisions about visibility and cloudbase then only go flying on really nice days - there is no 'human right' to aviate and it's not other people's fault that some can't do it very well.
For FŁ$S sake!
It's really not difficult, despite some people's attempts to make it sound difficult.
Plan properly and have an awareness of the prevailing conditions and terrain.
Fly at a speed and height that allows you to maintain VMC and comply with the law.
Land or turn back before it is too late.
If you can't (or won't) achieve those things after having been through the standard PPL course and ground exams and spent a bit of time in the flying club then it's unlikely that you will learn at all (other than the hard way). Trying to dress it up as anything other than plain old "press-on-itis" is an example of the "phsyco-babble" culture of current fashion.
AnFI - to quote Winston - "A fanatic is someone who can't change his mind and won't change the subject".
It's really not difficult, despite some people's attempts to make it sound difficult.
Plan properly and have an awareness of the prevailing conditions and terrain.
Fly at a speed and height that allows you to maintain VMC and comply with the law.
Land or turn back before it is too late.
If you can't (or won't) achieve those things after having been through the standard PPL course and ground exams and spent a bit of time in the flying club then it's unlikely that you will learn at all (other than the hard way). Trying to dress it up as anything other than plain old "press-on-itis" is an example of the "phsyco-babble" culture of current fashion.
AnFI - to quote Winston - "A fanatic is someone who can't change his mind and won't change the subject".
ANFI: I find it hilarious that you are winding everyone up - keep it coming
You have a smidgeon of experience in the real McCoy - to be honest certainly not enough to be able to talk from a position of authority. You are what I call an armchair judge, pontificating in cacoethes loquendi, basking in ethical egoism in extremis.
There - even I feel better now.......
Go back to your day job of applying adhesive to the back of stamps and leave the gutteral reality of aviation to.....wait for it.....aviators
You have a smidgeon of experience in the real McCoy - to be honest certainly not enough to be able to talk from a position of authority. You are what I call an armchair judge, pontificating in cacoethes loquendi, basking in ethical egoism in extremis.
There - even I feel better now.......
Go back to your day job of applying adhesive to the back of stamps and leave the gutteral reality of aviation to.....wait for it.....aviators
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TC & the others who have commented to this thread have certainly had their patience tested by AnFi. I would suggest that this thread having read through it is totally exhausted and no further repsonse to this individual should be made, why waste the energy!!!!
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Anfi and ramblings
Fox
Right on
What a star we have here (and I am not even a pilot!! ) maybe Mods could intervene so we have some useful info to digest.....? - VFR
Right on
What a star we have here (and I am not even a pilot!! ) maybe Mods could intervene so we have some useful info to digest.....? - VFR
Chief Bottle Washer
Chief Bottle Washer
ttb,
The thread was revolving too much around the veracity of AnFI's dissertations. On advice that I've been given it would appear that reservations about AnFI's background are unfounded and I edited my post accordingly
The thread was revolving too much around the veracity of AnFI's dissertations. On advice that I've been given it would appear that reservations about AnFI's background are unfounded and I edited my post accordingly
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sick - poor sole - dies for Darwin?
"
" In DVE you want to look outside to keep your visual references - otherwise you'll wind up in IIMC - (which as Crab contends is inevitable.... using that strategy)
No it isn't - if done at all it is done using 'foggles' which permit sight of external references through at least 120degrees - negating the exercise - you cannot ignore the stabilising cues of reality even if you wanted to...
- at which point he lost control - workload of selecting XPonder code not worth while - this is at least the second case of Controller training being unsuited to this scenario ....
Oh dear ... killed doing what he was taught ----- FOR F
K SAKE WHEN WILL YOU OBSTINATE BRDS TAKE THIS SERIOUSLY? ---- Visibility rules do not stop this ---- people do not want to be IIMC - they (often) just do not know how to stay VMC ... lets show them ... duh!
It's not about recognising scenarios where IIMC is more probable and having the judgment to land first .... that is just not anything like exact enough.
(...no clouds in South Africa, i guess?)
.... the problem is Darwin deselects the people who do what they were 'supposed to do' and not the people who got the advice wrong.
the pilot is required to fly a Rate 1 (3o/sec) turn on instruments, through 180o. This is to demonstrate that he can safely turn the helicopter around to regain VMC in the event of encountering a Deteriorating Visual Environment (DVE).
Footnote
6 During which flight under instruction is conducted by sole reference to flight instruments.
6 During which flight under instruction is conducted by sole reference to flight instruments.
GIVE ME SOME hELP hERE PLEASE, TANGO GOLF”. The controller acknowledged the pilot’s request and advised him to select the transponder code (squawk) one seven fiv.....
The helicopter turned through approximately 180o and then started climbing. This was probably an attempt by the pilot to turn around to find better weather conditions, a manoeuvre he would have been required to demonstrated on the JAA PPL(H) LST. This turn was flown at about 1o/sec rather than the 3o/sec required for the LST. This indicated that, while the pilot was doing as he was taught
K SAKE WHEN WILL YOU OBSTINATE BRDS TAKE THIS SERIOUSLY? ---- Visibility rules do not stop this ---- people do not want to be IIMC - they (often) just do not know how to stay VMC ... lets show them ... duh!It's not about recognising scenarios where IIMC is more probable and having the judgment to land first .... that is just not anything like exact enough.
(...no clouds in South Africa, i guess?)
.... the problem is Darwin deselects the people who do what they were 'supposed to do' and not the people who got the advice wrong.