Crash near Bude, Cornwall: 24th July 2011
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Sometimes its not as easy as just flying from A to B.
Funny, I wouldn't say Epiphany has an ego. He is passing on some pretty good advice.
Its the low timers who wont listen to senior pilots for advice that has the EGO!
Best advice, stay away from the FARKIN white stuff, and if its not feeling right then it isn't.
Oh, and dont worry. It will be a nice sunny day when they come pick up your prang.
Safe flying all....and stay away from cloud if your a VFR pilot.
Funny, I wouldn't say Epiphany has an ego. He is passing on some pretty good advice.
Its the low timers who wont listen to senior pilots for advice that has the EGO!
Best advice, stay away from the FARKIN white stuff, and if its not feeling right then it isn't.
Oh, and dont worry. It will be a nice sunny day when they come pick up your prang.
Safe flying all....and stay away from cloud if your a VFR pilot.
Hummingfrog ......of course you are right . I went slightly over the top with that point and accept your criticism . Re read it to be 200 m which gets rid of recirc problem .....my point was solely to point out that you should treat the white stuff as being solid ....you can go around it or under it ....i dont think that is too complicated or contentious ? I think you cannot legislate for this .....i chose to fly INTO it at a very early stage ( with CF11 ) both in single and ME and it was invaluable training . I shall chose to do the same with my son when he finishes his licence ....he will go straight in and realise that it is not a good place to be . Each to his own .
TC - I think you'll find that the CFII in brackets in Nigel's post refers to the FAA qualification - Certified Flying Instructor (Instrument), and suggests that he chose to go into IMC with a CFII during his training......
On the other hand, a few decades ago I qualified as an FAA CFII (fixed wing) without ever having flown in cloud - all done under the hood, which was then (and maybe now) perfectly legal.
I never did use the qualification as I shortly after went over to flying helicopters
(sorry, not doing very well today, guess you are referring to the bit about choosing to do it with his son.......)
On the other hand, a few decades ago I qualified as an FAA CFII (fixed wing) without ever having flown in cloud - all done under the hood, which was then (and maybe now) perfectly legal.
I never did use the qualification as I shortly after went over to flying helicopters(sorry, not doing very well today, guess you are referring to the bit about choosing to do it with his son.......)
Last edited by farsouth; 23rd May 2012 at 16:33.
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I know, I know. I said that I would not be back but if I hear of a father and son dying in a helicopter crash in the near future I will be asking myself if perhaps I could have done more to prevent it so here goes:
If you go IIMC as an inexperienced, unrated, VFR pilot it means that you were either flying just below a low cloud base or in poor visibility or probably both. It is not a pleasant sensation as it was unexpected, disorienting and you have to make a decision - quickly. You now have 3 choices before panic sets in.
1. Lower the collective and hope for the best. Not a great choice as you were close to the ground with little forward visibility and you don't know what is ahead.
2. Turn 180 degrees and hope to regain VMC. A better choice as you know what was behind you BUT you stand a very good chance of becoming disoriented and losing control with little space to recover if you find yourself becoming VMC upside down at 200' agl. You will probably die of severe trauma but you could find yourself trapped and burn to death.
3. Climb to LSALT and give a MAYDAY call. It is an emergency and will get attention. Best case scenario - you maintain control, you know what LSALT is, you reach it and are visual, you find a gap or someone hears you, identifies you, sends someone to guide you down, you have enough fuel, you manage to descent to VMC and land. I doubt that will happen. More likely you probably have no idea what LSALT is, if you do you might lose control before you get there and even if you get there you might still be IMC and in the winter in freezing conditions. You lose control, keep the PTT pressed and some poor ATC bod will hear your and your passengers screaming all the way down.
Do yourself, your son and your poor friends and realtives a favour. If the weather looks dodgy - stay at home.
If you go IIMC as an inexperienced, unrated, VFR pilot it means that you were either flying just below a low cloud base or in poor visibility or probably both. It is not a pleasant sensation as it was unexpected, disorienting and you have to make a decision - quickly. You now have 3 choices before panic sets in.
1. Lower the collective and hope for the best. Not a great choice as you were close to the ground with little forward visibility and you don't know what is ahead.
2. Turn 180 degrees and hope to regain VMC. A better choice as you know what was behind you BUT you stand a very good chance of becoming disoriented and losing control with little space to recover if you find yourself becoming VMC upside down at 200' agl. You will probably die of severe trauma but you could find yourself trapped and burn to death.
3. Climb to LSALT and give a MAYDAY call. It is an emergency and will get attention. Best case scenario - you maintain control, you know what LSALT is, you reach it and are visual, you find a gap or someone hears you, identifies you, sends someone to guide you down, you have enough fuel, you manage to descent to VMC and land. I doubt that will happen. More likely you probably have no idea what LSALT is, if you do you might lose control before you get there and even if you get there you might still be IMC and in the winter in freezing conditions. You lose control, keep the PTT pressed and some poor ATC bod will hear your and your passengers screaming all the way down.
Do yourself, your son and your poor friends and realtives a favour. If the weather looks dodgy - stay at home.
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I suppose another option not yet discussed is if in IIMC and hopelessly lost,
rather than just give up and panic, keep the wings level on the AH, turn gently into wind, air speed to less than 40 Kts and slowly descend. I think the airframe is a little more stable in the descent, perhaps even an auto rotation with the needles joined. When you see the ground you will be less than 40 Kts ground speed and just need to flare.
I'll get my coat.
rather than just give up and panic, keep the wings level on the AH, turn gently into wind, air speed to less than 40 Kts and slowly descend. I think the airframe is a little more stable in the descent, perhaps even an auto rotation with the needles joined. When you see the ground you will be less than 40 Kts ground speed and just need to flare.
I'll get my coat.
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HaHaHa. I think you're being a bit harsh there hihover. The only thing chopjock got wrong was to say
What I think he he meant to say was IF you see the ground (before you hit it or something else).
I also love his suggestion that giving up and panicking is somehow a choice made by the unfortunate victim
.
when you see the ground
I also love his suggestion that giving up and panicking is somehow a choice made by the unfortunate victim
.
Maybe it is my English at fault here . I thought I made it quite clear that I would NOT EVER go imc by myself as I am not qualified and would surely die . All the instrument flying I have done in singles and ME has been with a instructor or very very high time instrument rated pilot . When my son is plunged into it , as I was , he will have the same pilots . I am grateful for all the concern re my well being but can assure you I have flown on and off for 30 yrs In some very difficult terrain and weather and have always remained vmc or landed ( which I have done on many occasions ). The point I have tried to make obviously is not getting there so maybe things should be left as they are because all must be ok with the training and advice we give ppl,s . If I become a statistic it will not be from being Gung Ho I assure you .... I just believe saying don't do something is NOT enough , people need to feel and sense the repercussions of their actions by going into it . Again each to his own ...
Last edited by nigelh; 23rd May 2012 at 20:33.
Epiphany - just to be clear (for benefit of our learned brethren), your option 3) obviously isn't an option. This is exactly what Chris Watts attempted to do (before he got to LSALT - not that he even knew what that was) and it cost him his life.
That made me giggle Epiphany - 
LSALT / MSA: The minimum heights you cannot (safely)descend below without a risk of colliding with cumulogranite. All your plates will have the figures, usually in sectors based on the topography and the ICAO standard pressure.
Nigel: You are right: your grammar is appalling. Hope your flying is better
What you are trying to say is that you were introduced to IIMC courtesy of the qualified instructor next to you. You would like your son to experience the same if and when the time comes.
Obviously the reader then assumes the conditions were controlled w.r.t. height, speed, attitude, airspace, aircraft type.
What I suspect YOU failed to take away from the experience is that said CFII didn't allow you to fly the a/c to the point where you lost control and allowed the situation to develop into an unusual attitude from which the CFII had to recover. So you don't really appreciate how difficult it is to retain control in IMC without the proper skills. PLEASE don't allow your son to think IIMC is a doddle because it's been shown by a CFII
Chopjock: you are a wind up merchant, right?
LSALT / MSA: The minimum heights you cannot (safely)descend below without a risk of colliding with cumulogranite. All your plates will have the figures, usually in sectors based on the topography and the ICAO standard pressure.
Nigel: You are right: your grammar is appalling. Hope your flying is better
What you are trying to say is that you were introduced to IIMC courtesy of the qualified instructor next to you. You would like your son to experience the same if and when the time comes.Obviously the reader then assumes the conditions were controlled w.r.t. height, speed, attitude, airspace, aircraft type.
What I suspect YOU failed to take away from the experience is that said CFII didn't allow you to fly the a/c to the point where you lost control and allowed the situation to develop into an unusual attitude from which the CFII had to recover. So you don't really appreciate how difficult it is to retain control in IMC without the proper skills. PLEASE don't allow your son to think IIMC is a doddle because it's been shown by a CFII
Chopjock: you are a wind up merchant, right?
TC. It says on my licence " proficient in English " so you have to be wrong about me gramma ......
Ps I did get in a right old mess ( not in control and in v unusual attitude !!) but only after he , unfairly I think , made me do umpteen 360 ,s and power changes . When I lost it I lost it v quickly and would not have recovered !!!!
( go around button on 109 is a great tool ...if all else fails and you have it )
Ps I did get in a right old mess ( not in control and in v unusual attitude !!) but only after he , unfairly I think , made me do umpteen 360 ,s and power changes . When I lost it I lost it v quickly and would not have recovered !!!!
( go around button on 109 is a great tool ...if all else fails and you have it )
178 seconds to live... - The Aspiring Pilot
Posted more to read Anfi and chopjock's responses than in the hope that some will see the sense in it.
Posted more to read Anfi and chopjock's responses than in the hope that some will see the sense in it.
Last edited by Senior Pilot; 29th May 2012 at 09:37. Reason: Add YouTube clip
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MG
I saw the video, very sobering, but why didn't the pilot just slow down, fly lower and slower in order to maintain visual with the surface? or even land for that matter?
Oh I see, this video is all about pilots unable (fixed wing), unwilling or who are not trained to do that.
I saw the video, very sobering, but why didn't the pilot just slow down, fly lower and slower in order to maintain visual with the surface? or even land for that matter?
Oh I see, this video is all about pilots unable (fixed wing), unwilling or who are not trained to do that.
Last edited by chopjock; 29th May 2012 at 08:31.
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Slow down ? Go down? That makes for a dead pilot & pax. Get in the soup? Climb! level no turns & call someone. Too much stuff to hit near Mother Earth,Lost Pilots have yet to hit the moon.
hillberg: don't go giving any more mad cap ideas to these guys. We are trying to wean them off going IIMC
If they climb, what about icing? If they stay level what about heading as they fly straight into CAS or coast out and disappear over the horizon?
What happens when they run out of fuel waiting for a shephard a/c?
STAY AWAY FROM IIMC.
If they climb, what about icing? If they stay level what about heading as they fly straight into CAS or coast out and disappear over the horizon?
What happens when they run out of fuel waiting for a shephard a/c?
STAY AWAY FROM IIMC.