Crash near Bude, Cornwall: 24th July 2011
Avoid imitations
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I think that's a bit too cautious for a helicopter. A plank perhaps.
That was going to be my next question as well shy
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I don't agree with a word he said, but where was this "person. vessel, vehicle or structure" that brought about a breach of the 500 ft rule?
(I have said before, my rule is 600ft agl and viz to maintain 60knt OR retreat / land. I have not yet broken this rule, but I have retreated several times, and I have landed once. Many more times I have stayed on the ground with a nice cup of tea and a grouchy, whinging temprement)
(I have said before, my rule is 600ft agl and viz to maintain 60knt OR retreat / land. I have not yet broken this rule, but I have retreated several times, and I have landed once. Many more times I have stayed on the ground with a nice cup of tea and a grouchy, whinging temprement)
Last edited by John R81; 16th May 2012 at 19:43.
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where was this "person. vessel, vehicle or structure" that brought about a breach of the 500 ft rule?
Before anyone tries to trip me up for saying so, I was legally exempt from Rule 5 for 25 years, in previous roles. Military jet, SEP and rotary. Then SAR then Police.
Now, as a civvy rotary pilot, I'm no longer exempt Rule 5 so I have to abide by it, even though I know I could safely continue under the cloudbase. Sometimes, when icing conditions prevail above, I too have to turn back because there is no safe IFR option. Highly frustrating, I admit.
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Is contravening the 500 foot rule in an attempt to stay VMC something you do very often?
I presume you know the 500 foot rule is not solely to do with height above the ground.
You should know full well you can legally fly as low as you like provided you don't fly closer than vessels etc etc., remain clear of cloud and have the surface in sight and a vis of 1500m.
So why the BS aimed at PPL's?
Last edited by chopjock; 16th May 2012 at 20:42.
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Originally Posted by Chopjock
So why the BS aimed at PPL's?
Cheers
Whirls
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Hi TC: You are right I don't like discussing my experience - it's not really relevant - but I am a pilot, with some experience - although I am still learning!
I don't see that there should ever be any danger from bad weather (viz/cloudbase) - it should be embarrassing/impractical/anti-social/impossible to comply with 500ft rule first - with danger never coming into it. Given the choice between the 500ft rule and entry to IMC I hope no pilot will choose the fatal option
I understand, TC, that you believe that a pilot needs to go through their risky in-experienced staged and partly by luck will develop the 'toolkit' of judgment and strategy to become safe - I don't think that precludes trying to pass on those wisdoms... and do our best for them.
Crab:
soft bottoms sometimes - you can't be that slack when there is (effectively) no IMC option...
Griffo: I love that you were doing that - they don't even seem to test the ability to manually and unaided pole about with sole ref to instruments in an IRT anymore
- strange
This guy had never really seen a cloud - but was coached in IMC flight and 180's - I feel very sorry for him and his 'loved ones' - I think we let him down.
I don't see that there should ever be any danger from bad weather (viz/cloudbase) - it should be embarrassing/impractical/anti-social/impossible to comply with 500ft rule first - with danger never coming into it. Given the choice between the 500ft rule and entry to IMC I hope no pilot will choose the fatal option
I understand, TC, that you believe that a pilot needs to go through their risky in-experienced staged and partly by luck will develop the 'toolkit' of judgment and strategy to become safe - I don't think that precludes trying to pass on those wisdoms... and do our best for them.
Crab:
It is quite normal to be able to see the ground when 100' to 200' above the cloudbase
Griffo: I love that you were doing that - they don't even seem to test the ability to manually and unaided pole about with sole ref to instruments in an IRT anymore
- strangeThis guy had never really seen a cloud - but was coached in IMC flight and 180's - I feel very sorry for him and his 'loved ones' - I think we let him down.
Hi TC: You are right I don't like discussing my experience - it's not really relevant
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How much time is spent in classrooms to cover the subject of accidents? To my knowledge (JAA syllabus): 0 hrs.
I know some PPL students read these reports (like i did long before i even started flying) to try and learn from them. I doubt the majority does.
I still remember the day we could not go flying due to weather and instead i had to watch the video from Robinson. The scene with the R22 which came down after the MR stalled and on the first flight with his girlfriend after he got his shiny new license is one i will never forget.
It is not to make people afraid of bad weather. In europe and especially in the UK you will hardly fly if you wait for GAFOR's with C's all around. But teach students in deteriorating conditions and make them aware of when it is time for plan B or C and have one (or both).
Attitude is a different issue but those with bad habits probably do not need bad weather to kill themselves one day.
I know some PPL students read these reports (like i did long before i even started flying) to try and learn from them. I doubt the majority does.
I still remember the day we could not go flying due to weather and instead i had to watch the video from Robinson. The scene with the R22 which came down after the MR stalled and on the first flight with his girlfriend after he got his shiny new license is one i will never forget.
It is not to make people afraid of bad weather. In europe and especially in the UK you will hardly fly if you wait for GAFOR's with C's all around. But teach students in deteriorating conditions and make them aware of when it is time for plan B or C and have one (or both).
Attitude is a different issue but those with bad habits probably do not need bad weather to kill themselves one day.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
How much time is spent in classrooms to cover the subject of accidents? To my knowledge (JAA syllabus): 0 hrs.
On past threads, Single Pilot CRM has been openly scoffed at, and until it is taken seriously without intervention by an authority, incidents that may well have been preventable at an early stage will continue.
silsoe
Single pilot crm, thats the problem it is really common sense for single pilots and as such is not really crm in the true sense. How do you teach common sense? With great difficulty ( the single pilot does not have someone else to learn from - " the loneliness of command"), and at what point does experience turn to stupidity.
I have seen many a cpl that quite frankly was at a standard of an average ppl but with the atitude i am a cpl so I know best and it wont happen to me
Quite frankly there is almost no way in preventing people who want to fly in fog flying in it.
Single pilot crm, thats the problem it is really common sense for single pilots and as such is not really crm in the true sense. How do you teach common sense? With great difficulty ( the single pilot does not have someone else to learn from - " the loneliness of command"), and at what point does experience turn to stupidity.
I have seen many a cpl that quite frankly was at a standard of an average ppl but with the atitude i am a cpl so I know best and it wont happen to me
Quite frankly there is almost no way in preventing people who want to fly in fog flying in it.
This is where Human Factors training and CRM come together. CRM is HF but HF can be taught to single pilots without the crew element being needed.
A knowledge of HF might help those predisposed to arrogance and poor decision making to recognise it in themselves and the training might also make them realise that such traits are distinctly dangerous in the world of aviation.
A knowledge of HF might help those predisposed to arrogance and poor decision making to recognise it in themselves and the training might also make them realise that such traits are distinctly dangerous in the world of aviation.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
( the single pilot does not have someone else to learn from - " the loneliness of command")
Crew Resource Management (CRM), or Cockpit Resource Management as it is sometimes referred to when it comes to single pilot helicopters, encompasses a wide range of knowledge, skills and attitudes including communications, situational awareness, problem solving, decision making, and teamwork.
CRM can be defined as a management system which makes optimum use of all available resources - equipment, procedures and people - to promote safety and enhance the efficiency of flight operations.
It is concerned not so much with the technical knowledge and skills required to fly and operate an aircraft but rather with the cognitive and interpersonal skills needed to manage the flight within an organised aviation system.
In this context, cognitive skills are defined as the mental processes used for gaining and maintaining situational awareness, for solving problems and for making decisions. Interpersonal skills are regarded as communications and a range of behavioural activities associated with teamwork.
In aviation, as in other walks of life, these skill areas often overlap with each other, and they also overlap with the required technical skills. Furthermore, they are not confined to multi-crew aircraft, but also relate to single pilot operations, which invariably need to interface with other aircraft and with various ground support agencies in order to complete their missions successfully.
CRM can be defined as a management system which makes optimum use of all available resources - equipment, procedures and people - to promote safety and enhance the efficiency of flight operations.
It is concerned not so much with the technical knowledge and skills required to fly and operate an aircraft but rather with the cognitive and interpersonal skills needed to manage the flight within an organised aviation system.
In this context, cognitive skills are defined as the mental processes used for gaining and maintaining situational awareness, for solving problems and for making decisions. Interpersonal skills are regarded as communications and a range of behavioural activities associated with teamwork.
In aviation, as in other walks of life, these skill areas often overlap with each other, and they also overlap with the required technical skills. Furthermore, they are not confined to multi-crew aircraft, but also relate to single pilot operations, which invariably need to interface with other aircraft and with various ground support agencies in order to complete their missions successfully.
Silsoe
Please tell me from your post
"interpersonal skills needed to manage the flight within an organised aviation system."
Where does the private owner fit into an organised aviation system then ? Think you need to wise up to reality There is no such thing within EASA land for the private pilot. Yes within aoc operations it is obviously there, within a TRTO/FTO it is there, probably not in many RF's. The system over here requires no checking on owners other than an LPC check ride which is just a handling check. It is normally the owners who fail their LPC's, usually on emergency drills rather than the " normal flying".
I agree crm is important but and it is a big but it will not stop people professional or not when operating single pilot doing stupid things. Once an owner has his shiny licence and shiny R44 there any supervision ends until his lpc which maybe as far away as 15 months ! So how do wish to change this and be practical please ? As a TRE and head of training of an AOC company the other pilots are able to talk to each other and are encouraged to, within the company, we look at case studies of accidents ( yes the one in Bude) As part of their opc check rides there is an element of crm.
Is The solution is to add crm to the lpc every year for pilots ? However would this have stopped someone from flying into fog, probably not.
Please tell me from your post
"interpersonal skills needed to manage the flight within an organised aviation system."
Where does the private owner fit into an organised aviation system then ? Think you need to wise up to reality
There is no such thing within EASA land for the private pilot. Yes within aoc operations it is obviously there, within a TRTO/FTO it is there, probably not in many RF's. The system over here requires no checking on owners other than an LPC check ride which is just a handling check. It is normally the owners who fail their LPC's, usually on emergency drills rather than the " normal flying".I agree crm is important but and it is a big but it will not stop people professional or not when operating single pilot doing stupid things. Once an owner has his shiny licence and shiny R44 there any supervision ends until his lpc which maybe as far away as 15 months ! So how do wish to change this and be practical please ? As a TRE and head of training of an AOC company the other pilots are able to talk to each other and are encouraged to, within the company, we look at case studies of accidents ( yes the one in Bude) As part of their opc check rides there is an element of crm.
Is The solution is to add crm to the lpc every year for pilots ? However would this have stopped someone from flying into fog, probably not.
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Ok there is no doubt that some people do have an overconfident attitude.
But even a wreckless, arrogant, private pilot, (wealthy?) won't fly into a cloud and kill himself if he knows how not to.
Unfortunately some highly conscientious, well meaning and responsible people also don't know how to stay out of clouds.
Even some police pilots apparently don't know how to stay out of clouds either
So if you do CRM at PPLs you might make the arrogant ones more humble - but it won't help any of the three groups above stay out of clouds.
But even a wreckless, arrogant, private pilot, (wealthy?) won't fly into a cloud and kill himself if he knows how not to.
Unfortunately some highly conscientious, well meaning and responsible people also don't know how to stay out of clouds.
Even some police pilots apparently don't know how to stay out of clouds either
So if you do CRM at PPLs you might make the arrogant ones more humble - but it won't help any of the three groups above stay out of clouds.
AnFI - we are all still waiting for your expert tuition in the special skill of staying out of the clouds - most of us mere mortals think it is pretty straightforward but apparently you have created a new science/art/religion (delete as appropriate) with knowledge that only you, the chosen one can impart.
Everyone else says 'don't fly in the cloudbase, constantly assess the visibility and turn round early' but apparently your secret of how not to lose visual references is some divine gift which you still haven't explained.
Do please anoint us with your wisdom.
Everyone else says 'don't fly in the cloudbase, constantly assess the visibility and turn round early' but apparently your secret of how not to lose visual references is some divine gift which you still haven't explained.
Do please anoint us with your wisdom.
Sounds simple doesn't it - I've found many students (and pilots) don't know how to judge if another a/c is on the same level as them. If they can't do this how can they do the same for a cloud?
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Silsoe
Please tell me from your post
"interpersonal skills needed to manage the flight within an organised aviation system."
Where does the private owner fit into an organised aviation system then ? Think you need to wise up to reality
Please tell me from your post
"interpersonal skills needed to manage the flight within an organised aviation system."
Where does the private owner fit into an organised aviation system then ? Think you need to wise up to reality
"In this context, .... Interpersonal skills are regarded as communications and a range of behavioural activities associated with teamwork.
In aviation, as in other walks of life, these skill areas often overlap with each other, and they also overlap with the required technical skills. Furthermore, they are not confined to multi-crew aircraft, but also relate to single pilot operations, which invariably need to interface with other aircraft and with various ground support agencies in order to complete their missions successfully."
I guess that if you even got to the work 'teamwork', you were unable to relate that word to single pilot flights and switched off.
There may well not be an 'I' in Teamwork however, look closer and you will find a 'me',
but most importantly you will find 'Tea'.
Why is tea 'most important? Because before going flying, perhaps one should sit down quietly for a few minutes with a brew and go through the planning and 'fly the trip' before actually getting into the aircraft!
Please take a minute now and read the section in the AAAIB report titled 'Weather Information' and ask yourself if a quick 5/10 minute think through before launching might have made a difference to the events of that day.
Please don't kid yourself or anyone prepared to listen to you, that single pilot flights are always flown alone.
IMHO, with every 'single pilot' flight there will either be someone else in the aircraft or directly involved with the purpose of that flight. As soon as that other person is at the departure point, pick up point, arrival point, sat in the aircraft or in the boardroom waiting, the pilot is put in a completely different mindset. Call it pressonitus, gethomeitis, commercial pressure, loss of face whatever you like, but the ability to say 'no' or 'sorry can't make it', 'I'll be late, lets reschedule', or most importantly "I'm turning round and going back', seems to disappear.
Not quite sure which reality you want me to wise up to
