Crash near Bude, Cornwall: 24th July 2011
Epiphany - either you're just trying to wind us all up, inflate your massive ego a few more psi, or maybe you have completely missed the point? Hopefully, it's the latter. I estimate 99.99% of PPL(H)s have no IR yet too many believe they are qualified to fly in IMC (at least until they've executed the 180 they spent 5 hours learning all about it during their course). The key point discussed in this thread is around what can be done to help ANY pilot, not just PPLs in unstabilised aircraft, going IIMC before they find out that those 5 hours (or far more) are actually worth f*** all.
I'm struggling to understand your extraordinary arrogance and pointless contribution
I'm struggling to understand your extraordinary arrogance and pointless contribution
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The key point discussed in this thread is around what can be done to help ANY pilot, not just PPLs in unstabilised aircraft, going IIMC before they find out that those 5 hours (or far more) are actually worth f*** all.
If you plan to going flying and have no idea how to check the weather conditions for some reason - just look out of the window. If the visibility is bad - DON'T GO.
If the visibility is good and you go flying but find it getting worse then TURN AROUND OR LAND.
I realise that the Nanny State mentality has done irreparable harm to many but at some point in life you have to think for yourself, use common sense and take responsibility for your actions/decisions.
Bloody Hell - I am banging my head and I said that I wouldn't.
Last edited by Epiphany; 20th May 2012 at 20:01.
I have seen this before ....with some old Vietnam pilots i worked with . After a certain number of years the old ones just go into a grumpy state where they dont want to help anyone .....just blow their own trumpet ( while it still works ....)
Epiphany , you are a grumpy old sod and should try to be more helpful ....given your age you should know better
Epiphany , you are a grumpy old sod and should try to be more helpful ....given your age you should know better
Sadly, my hope was ill-founded; you're just arrogant. I think we've just gone back 20 places. Do you know what IIMC is?! I'll give you a clue for the first letter: 'Inadvertent'. Good grief, I can't believe I'm even having this exchange...
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OK - I give in - like the others I suspect.
Yes I do. It is the situation that could be easily avoided by PPL's by not flying in non-VMC conditions.
I'm not that old by the way. I just started flying at 19 years of age some 30 years ago and in between have logged 10,000+ helicopter hours flying Military, Police, HEMS, SAR, Instructor, Firefighting, Longline, Logging, VIP, Charter and Offshore in 18 different helicopter types from the R22 to the S61N on every continent. I am currently flying Offshore in the EC225 and expect to do so for at least another 10 years.
That qualifies me to comment here and if, now and again, I point out what I consider to be the obvious to those who decide otherwise then I will. If you interpret that as arrogance then so be it. Goodnight
Do you know what IIMC is?
I'm not that old by the way. I just started flying at 19 years of age some 30 years ago and in between have logged 10,000+ helicopter hours flying Military, Police, HEMS, SAR, Instructor, Firefighting, Longline, Logging, VIP, Charter and Offshore in 18 different helicopter types from the R22 to the S61N on every continent. I am currently flying Offshore in the EC225 and expect to do so for at least another 10 years.
That qualifies me to comment here and if, now and again, I point out what I consider to be the obvious to those who decide otherwise then I will. If you interpret that as arrogance then so be it. Goodnight
Last edited by Epiphany; 20th May 2012 at 20:46.
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All interesting stuff......in between the falling out!
I think we can continue to go over old ground, but it is quite evident that despite what people are taught they will always be those who have a less than acceptable approach to conducting a flight.
In all fairness to most schools/instructors I get the impression that the general feeling is the 5 hrs IF is a waste of time as it stands, however this doesn't mean that you simply have to go off on sunny days with the foggles on to go through the motions. Its suprising how well bloggs does when flying over fields etc with the foggles on, but then if you take them over a reservoir, wide river etc (within Auto distance to land before any comedians jumps in!) this can through them off kilter, a perfect chance to point out this foggles milarky isn't all its cracked up to be. Not to mention the fact they will sh*t themselves/tense up on the controls if they go IIMRC.
In addition time can be used from the syllabus to go off in marginal weather as part of EX 22b, highlighting the associated problems.
However despite all this I think people will continue to go off into weather they are not capable of handling, especially if they have a machine in their back garden and can go unchecked from a school etc.
I would like to see a mandatory refresher session for PPLs (or CPL etc who aren't flying for an AOC) covering topics they might find interesting/useful which should include a review of accidents. It might just drum home the facts. This could be run at selected FTOs around the country and form part of a renewal system.
Also, despite Fred's best efforts to tone down the LPC why not have a mated brief in there, I think it would be suprising how many pilots can't get relevant Met/Notams.
I don't see any significant changes coming from EASA, but this doesn't mean that as professional individuals responsible for training people to safe standard to CAPTAIN a helicopter we should not make a concerted effort to address these issues we all know exist.
I think we can continue to go over old ground, but it is quite evident that despite what people are taught they will always be those who have a less than acceptable approach to conducting a flight.
In all fairness to most schools/instructors I get the impression that the general feeling is the 5 hrs IF is a waste of time as it stands, however this doesn't mean that you simply have to go off on sunny days with the foggles on to go through the motions. Its suprising how well bloggs does when flying over fields etc with the foggles on, but then if you take them over a reservoir, wide river etc (within Auto distance to land before any comedians jumps in!) this can through them off kilter, a perfect chance to point out this foggles milarky isn't all its cracked up to be. Not to mention the fact they will sh*t themselves/tense up on the controls if they go IIMRC.
In addition time can be used from the syllabus to go off in marginal weather as part of EX 22b, highlighting the associated problems.
However despite all this I think people will continue to go off into weather they are not capable of handling, especially if they have a machine in their back garden and can go unchecked from a school etc.
I would like to see a mandatory refresher session for PPLs (or CPL etc who aren't flying for an AOC) covering topics they might find interesting/useful which should include a review of accidents. It might just drum home the facts. This could be run at selected FTOs around the country and form part of a renewal system.
Also, despite Fred's best efforts to tone down the LPC why not have a mated brief in there, I think it would be suprising how many pilots can't get relevant Met/Notams.
I don't see any significant changes coming from EASA, but this doesn't mean that as professional individuals responsible for training people to safe standard to CAPTAIN a helicopter we should not make a concerted effort to address these issues we all know exist.
Epiphany is simply advertising the truth. It may sound harsh and direct, but he is quite right. The problem I have is trying to sympathise with your arguments and then coming across statements like:
"Perhaps we could be taught to get really close to clouds before turning away"
"We CAN fly safely in very low cloud (250-300 feet)".
"We can reduce speed just before going into cloud, to 30-40kts ready to do a 180"
"We could do a sharp 180".
"We can fly low and slow under the cloud".
To ALL those of you out there with NO EXPERIENCE of flying in cloud, PLEASE READ nial dementia's post again and again.
Until you ACTUALLY fly in cloud, you really don't and can't have any idea what it is the more experienced guys on here are trying to tell you. It has to be tested and tasted to be explained clearly.
It is NOT something you mess with - unless you are fully trained and remain trained by practicing IMC virtually on a daily basis as it is a very perishable skill
Clouds don't behave in a logical pattern. They have a habit of forming behind you occasionally just as you exercise that 180 degree turn.
Loss of visual references leading to unusual attitudes are impossible to recover from unless you are TRAINED to do so. It is NOT something your CFI can demonstrate to a newbie anywhere and at anytime. It has to be ramped up slowly during IF training and demonstrated under very controlled circumstances (mainly thousands of feet up and in OUTCAS).
Epiphany was simply expressing his frustration at coming back to this long winded blo**y thread and finding the same old same old going on and on and on.
Give it a rest guys - DON'T tempt providence - STAY WELL CLEAR OF CLOUD (LEGALLY). Unless fully trained and current. FFS.
"Perhaps we could be taught to get really close to clouds before turning away"
"We CAN fly safely in very low cloud (250-300 feet)".
"We can reduce speed just before going into cloud, to 30-40kts ready to do a 180"
"We could do a sharp 180".
"We can fly low and slow under the cloud".
To ALL those of you out there with NO EXPERIENCE of flying in cloud, PLEASE READ nial dementia's post again and again.
Until you ACTUALLY fly in cloud, you really don't and can't have any idea what it is the more experienced guys on here are trying to tell you. It has to be tested and tasted to be explained clearly.
It is NOT something you mess with - unless you are fully trained and remain trained by practicing IMC virtually on a daily basis as it is a very perishable skill
Clouds don't behave in a logical pattern. They have a habit of forming behind you occasionally just as you exercise that 180 degree turn.
Loss of visual references leading to unusual attitudes are impossible to recover from unless you are TRAINED to do so. It is NOT something your CFI can demonstrate to a newbie anywhere and at anytime. It has to be ramped up slowly during IF training and demonstrated under very controlled circumstances (mainly thousands of feet up and in OUTCAS).
Epiphany was simply expressing his frustration at coming back to this long winded blo**y thread and finding the same old same old going on and on and on.
Give it a rest guys - DON'T tempt providence - STAY WELL CLEAR OF CLOUD (LEGALLY). Unless fully trained and current. FFS.
TC. I hear and basically agree with all you say . I think sometimes the printed word does not come across as it is meant . I think we have to accept there are two ways of looking at this . 1). Just say stay away from cloud or 2) actually demonstrate what it would feel like if you went into that cloud .
Admittedly with far fewer hours (but 30 yrs of experience ) I am firmly of the belief that you need to make people experience the thing you keep talking about . If they don't believe you before ...they will after . The only useful instrument exercise in my view would be actual and forget foggles . And yes I have done a few hours actual in ME and SE and no I would not do it by myself even now as I would die ...
Admittedly with far fewer hours (but 30 yrs of experience ) I am firmly of the belief that you need to make people experience the thing you keep talking about . If they don't believe you before ...they will after . The only useful instrument exercise in my view would be actual and forget foggles . And yes I have done a few hours actual in ME and SE and no I would not do it by myself even now as I would die ...
TC
We've crossed swords in the past but I completely agree with your disdain at the comments you quote. These are authored by the very same folk who, one day, will find themselves in a similar situation to those who have perished at the receiving end of over-confidence/arrogance/over-inflated sense of own ability.
There are two issues: first, fixing the above. Second, helping pilots who already acknowledge they are not qualified to fly in cloud from getting into the above situation inadvertently. That's the bit Epiphany missed.
We've crossed swords in the past but I completely agree with your disdain at the comments you quote. These are authored by the very same folk who, one day, will find themselves in a similar situation to those who have perished at the receiving end of over-confidence/arrogance/over-inflated sense of own ability.
There are two issues: first, fixing the above. Second, helping pilots who already acknowledge they are not qualified to fly in cloud from getting into the above situation inadvertently. That's the bit Epiphany missed.
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ttb
It's should stand for 'Inevitable'
because (i agree with you)
they do need that help and they don't get it - we must move this conversation on and agree what that help is.... How to stay visual.
Epiphany seems to have little (relative) experience at staying Visual - just goes IMC without penalty, doesn't think much about it - bet he breaks cloud regularly below 1000ft above the highest obje.... whilst not on an appropriate approach etc. NOT appropriate minset for a VMC PPL(H) who MUST stay Visual
TC - I am all ways intrigued by your '17yr old driver' parallel. So you think people will have to have luck and wit to survive the period of acquisition of skills and judgment? That'll allways be true to to some extent, but how do we stop kids driving too fast in Fog (faster that a braking distance), don't we try and teach that you must keep a stopping distance clearly in sight? Or do we let them establish it through commonsense and trial and error ? I think we can teach this and save people.
I do think it has more to do with inability to judge how to stay visual rather than not having the discipline to call it a day when the weather is hampering progress. And I think it has (almost) nothing to do with pilots not knowing the consequences of IMC flight are often fatal, (nor is it failure to apply a published weather criterion - which is just positively dangerous - just choosing to fly on days with 10k vis forcasts will not keep you away from IIMC)
Do you know what IIMC is?! I'll give you a clue for the first letter: 'Inadvertent'.
because (i agree with you)
Second, helping pilots who already acknowledge they are not qualified to fly in cloud from getting into the above situation inadvertently. That's the bit Epiphany missed.
Epiphany seems to have little (relative) experience at staying Visual - just goes IMC without penalty, doesn't think much about it - bet he breaks cloud regularly below 1000ft above the highest obje.... whilst not on an appropriate approach etc. NOT appropriate minset for a VMC PPL(H) who MUST stay Visual
TC - I am all ways intrigued by your '17yr old driver' parallel. So you think people will have to have luck and wit to survive the period of acquisition of skills and judgment? That'll allways be true to to some extent, but how do we stop kids driving too fast in Fog (faster that a braking distance), don't we try and teach that you must keep a stopping distance clearly in sight? Or do we let them establish it through commonsense and trial and error ? I think we can teach this and save people.
I do think it has more to do with inability to judge how to stay visual rather than not having the discipline to call it a day when the weather is hampering progress. And I think it has (almost) nothing to do with pilots not knowing the consequences of IMC flight are often fatal, (nor is it failure to apply a published weather criterion - which is just positively dangerous - just choosing to fly on days with 10k vis forcasts will not keep you away from IIMC)
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You PPL's fly helicopters for fun right? A very expensive hobby and I personally can think of much better ways of spending money but there you go...
Do you get a thrill scrabbling around at 200' agl over misty, wooded hillsides crapping yourself and wondering if there is a big nasty set of wires up ahead. No? Then why the hell would you risk getting into that situation in the first place?
TTB - if you concentrated on the important issue of not becoming airborne in marginal weather conditions in the first place then you will not have to concern yourself with wondering how to get out of IIMC. Without at least an IR and LOTS of practice you will kill yourself very quickly.
[quote]
I have 3,000 hours flying single-engine VFR helicopters, mostly trying to stay in VMC. I flew unstabilised Army Gazelle helicopters in IMC but I had a military Green Instrument rating, LOTS of practice and was ably assisted by RAF ATC. Yet I still scared myself on a number of occassions.
If you really want to learn then listen to the very experienced contrributors to this forum (and I am not including myself there) as they all seem to be telling you the same thing.
Do you get a thrill scrabbling around at 200' agl over misty, wooded hillsides crapping yourself and wondering if there is a big nasty set of wires up ahead. No? Then why the hell would you risk getting into that situation in the first place?
TTB - if you concentrated on the important issue of not becoming airborne in marginal weather conditions in the first place then you will not have to concern yourself with wondering how to get out of IIMC. Without at least an IR and LOTS of practice you will kill yourself very quickly.
[quote]
Epiphany seems to have little (relative) experience at staying Visual - just goes IMC without penalty,
If you really want to learn then listen to the very experienced contrributors to this forum (and I am not including myself there) as they all seem to be telling you the same thing.
Last edited by Epiphany; 22nd May 2012 at 06:45.
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Epiphany !
You also obviously have a high opinion of your own experience on this subject - what do you propose trading insults?
Demeaning the PPL eh - you're a professional right ? You ruined the most fun thing you can do by making it your job and now you'd rather go bowling?
Pilots who can safely do that are generally not the problem - they are the ones who can decide that it is no longer practical/fun/polite to continue... It's the ones that can't slow, descend, re-route and adapt who go IMC before that (when the vis is 10km !! Honestly!) - that's the risk. You've got the risk wrong - you don't want to trade the risk of staying visual being in control and making the right judgements with the dangerous scenario of not being able to do that and going IMC before you even realised and then running the risk of loosing control and becoming dead.
This is totally screwed up logic :
at the same time as the weather is good it is also bad in places - ever seen a wx forecast which does not say "clouds on hills" you cannot avoid the need for the judgement as to how to stay out of cloud by choosing only good weather - you will eventually need that judgement - if you don't 'have it' then merely avoiding getting airbourne (as Epiphany suggests ) in marginal wx will not save you when you need the ability to handle the conditions you actually encounter in the real world. Pif: you must agree staying visual must be the over riding essential skill (if absent then the result will be terminal eventually even if you attempt to select wx when you hope your missing skill is not required)
Gee thanks 
(this subject is too important for that - don't bring it down)
Use some logic - you need to be able to do what you suggest merely in order to survive for long enough to make the decision to go back/land safely etc wx forcasts are not reliable enough to hang your life on (ARE THEY ? ! )
You also obviously have a high opinion of your own experience on this subject - what do you propose trading insults?
You PPL's fly helicopters for fun right? A very expensive hobby and I personally can think of much better ways of spending money but there you go...
Do you get a thrill scrabbling around at 200' agl over misty, wooded hillsides crapping yourself and wondering if there is a big nasty set of wires up ahead. No? Then why the hell would you risk getting into that situation in the first place?
This is totally screwed up logic :
TTB - if you concentrated on the important issue of not becoming airborne in marginal weather conditions in the first place then you will not have to concern yourself with wondering how to get out of IIMC. Without at least an IR and LOTS of practice you will kill yourself very quickly.
) in marginal wx will not save you when you need the ability to handle the conditions you actually encounter in the real world. Pif: you must agree staying visual must be the over riding essential skill (if absent then the result will be terminal eventually even if you attempt to select wx when you hope your missing skill is not required)
And AnFI - you have completely lost the plot.
(this subject is too important for that - don't bring it down)Use some logic - you need to be able to do what you suggest merely in order to survive for long enough to make the decision to go back/land safely etc wx forcasts are not reliable enough to hang your life on (ARE THEY ? ! )
Epiphany - that's the second time you've said "you win", yet you still come back for more! Your attitude isn't dissimilar to that of a low hours PPL in marginal weather...
I'm very lucky, I've got more money than sense and enjoy flying for fun - but I take it very seriously. I am a PPL (there, I said it) but 90% of my flying is in connection with my (non-flying) business. I got my IR 8 years ago but fly VFR almost every day, totalling around 250 hours a year. I've been doing this for over 15 years, almost all in murky UK, so I have had some practice as well as a few scary moments that made me reconsider how well eqipped I am to deal with poor Wx. I'm always eager to learn from those with more experience.
Your problem is that you've failed to grasp the key points that have been raised in this thread and your flippant contributions have diluted some important advice from experienced members - particularly for low time or arrogant pilots who, if they're lucky, might still learn something that could save their lives.
I'm very lucky, I've got more money than sense and enjoy flying for fun - but I take it very seriously. I am a PPL (there, I said it) but 90% of my flying is in connection with my (non-flying) business. I got my IR 8 years ago but fly VFR almost every day, totalling around 250 hours a year. I've been doing this for over 15 years, almost all in murky UK, so I have had some practice as well as a few scary moments that made me reconsider how well eqipped I am to deal with poor Wx. I'm always eager to learn from those with more experience.
Your problem is that you've failed to grasp the key points that have been raised in this thread and your flippant contributions have diluted some important advice from experienced members - particularly for low time or arrogant pilots who, if they're lucky, might still learn something that could save their lives.
I have read some interesting and sensible posts on this thread - mainly from the professional pilots
But this from NigelH
NO NO NO!! have you not heard of recirculation!! There is no such thing as a regular even cloud base or fog bank. If you got within 50m of either you could be in deep and serious trouble
The effect of the rotor downwash can drag the fog/cloud around you before you could react. Bearing in mind all IFR equipped helicopters have a min IFR speed (40kts+) you could soon end up as another discussion thread on here.
How do I know this - I have been there as a SAR pilot in both the Brecon Beacons and Cairngorms. Low and slow hover taxy to pick up injured people just above the cloudbase. You think you are approaching the cloudbase when the next minute you are in it but I was trained and very experienced in this type of work and knew and stuck to my limits.
I am amazed that some people on here do not take note of the good advice given by the experienced pilots who have contributed to this thread or even challenge it.
I fly light aircraft for a hobby and it isn't difficult to keep clear of cloud and turn back before you lose references. Why is it so difficult for some
PPL(H)'s to understand this concept!!
HF
But this from NigelH
fly right up to a fog bank or low cloud and safely get within say 50 m of it .....but that would be at hover taxi speed . I am guessing
The effect of the rotor downwash can drag the fog/cloud around you before you could react. Bearing in mind all IFR equipped helicopters have a min IFR speed (40kts+) you could soon end up as another discussion thread on here.How do I know this - I have been there as a SAR pilot in both the Brecon Beacons and Cairngorms. Low and slow hover taxy to pick up injured people just above the cloudbase. You think you are approaching the cloudbase when the next minute you are in it but I was trained and very experienced in this type of work and knew and stuck to my limits.
I am amazed that some people on here do not take note of the good advice given by the experienced pilots who have contributed to this thread or even challenge it.
I fly light aircraft for a hobby and it isn't difficult to keep clear of cloud and turn back before you lose references. Why is it so difficult for some
PPL(H)'s to understand this concept!!
HF
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Why not talk about him? Good idea while we crack another beer, another character assisination of someone what may have been flying around in a fog for half his life, in real machines too. It would break the monotony of AnF1 telling us all what how etc.
topendtorque
Is irony not a subject taught in Aus!!
I was talking about someone who thinks hover taxying up to the cloudbase/fogbank was a way of getting experience!!
HF
(or even grammar and spelling
)
Is irony not a subject taught in Aus!!
Why not talk about him? Good idea while we crack another beer, another character assisination of someone what may have been flying around in a fog for half his life, in real machines too.
HF
(or even grammar and spelling
)