BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions
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If I am correct, the offer refers to a fixed monthly payment instead of allowances based on the actual trips you do.
This only penalises those who regularly (and unfairly) get more than the average number of juicy, high paying trips. And if we take a guess at who they are, one can only assume that the BASSA leadership will be against this for personal reasons.
This only penalises those who regularly (and unfairly) get more than the average number of juicy, high paying trips. And if we take a guess at who they are, one can only assume that the BASSA leadership will be against this for personal reasons.
I agree Chico. There's a similar argument regarding the Union's stance concerning ST return. It discriminates unfairly (they say) against senior staff, even though the offer restores ST to those who most need it (the commuters). Sod the majority, protect the BASSA reps appears to be the stance taken 
Does anyone know when the results of the ballot will be announced?
Edited to add: Apparently it ends 6th May. Results announced soon after, presumably.
Edited to add: Apparently it ends 6th May. Results announced soon after, presumably.
Last edited by etrang; 30th Apr 2010 at 12:54.
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If it ends 6 May, then a strike is is no longer a pre-election embarrassment to Unite, Labour or Gordon Brown.
Look out for a REJECT outcome and further planned IA.
One of the drivers for this is that people can vote 'yes ' and then change their minds and work.
So why not poke Wilie/the company with a pointed stick? (looking from the other point of view.)
Look out for a REJECT outcome and further planned IA.
One of the drivers for this is that people can vote 'yes ' and then change their minds and work.
So why not poke Wilie/the company with a pointed stick? (looking from the other point of view.)
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There’s a lot of talk about resentment within the company if ST is restored, but bear in mind that as long as it is without seniority, all those ‘resenters’ will always be ahead of those who have got their ST back, in the standby queue.
With load factors the way they are these days, ST with no seniority won’t get you anywhere, except maybe Glasgow (where many of the commuters are based).
As one who has a BA ST entitlement, I am naturally delighted that hundreds if not thousands who were ahead of me no longer are. Whilst I applauded the removal of their privileges, the fact that they would be back on rung zero of the ladder doesn’t bother me.
With load factors the way they are these days, ST with no seniority won’t get you anywhere, except maybe Glasgow (where many of the commuters are based).
As one who has a BA ST entitlement, I am naturally delighted that hundreds if not thousands who were ahead of me no longer are. Whilst I applauded the removal of their privileges, the fact that they would be back on rung zero of the ladder doesn’t bother me.
What would you Do??
Whilst I fully understand some of the "simple" responses and views on this thread, and fully understand the frustrations of all the logical thinkers, there does remain the fact that BA CC have been lead by truly average -maybe less than that - managers for 20 to 30 years.
For instance
1. - Apparently, not a single CSD has been fired, for over 20 years for producing poor customer service.
2. For many years the sickness absence of BA CC was averaging over 20 days per person per annum, and no-one bothered to manage that. Taking a sickie was an entitlement. (Normal private sector sickness absence for white collar workers is 4 to 6 days per annum.)
3. The "manager" always rang the TU to ask for permission to do something that was outwith the "industrial" agreements, and always meekly accepted what the Union demanded. There was often extra money for very, very, minor things.
4. BA could not predict the working hours of staff with any degree of accuracy, which lead to massive CC overmanning.
5. The "Spanish" practices were actually encouraged by the immediate foreman/manager - the CSD.
I could go on - that's enough.
So you are crew. You know that WW will be gone in a couple of years, off to a better CEO job with a decent Company, with better share options.
The middle managers have not yet all been fired - so you know that as soon as WW goes, all the old practices will return. That Aussie PhD was brought in to reform BA - nothing much changed. Altho' he got us some more very lucrative trips to India. All will revert to normal once WW has gone.
Wouldn't you think carefully about all that and decide to be logical, prudent, and sensible about the future of your job?? - Best to stick with the people who are really running BA - otherwise known as Bassa, and ignore all this temporary kerfuffle that WW is causing????.
Bassa are clearly the "Executive" of BA's CC Department, and have been for 20 to 30 years.
Why read anything sent by BA?? I'll keep reading the comms from the real Executive - Bassa.
Food for thought.
For instance
1. - Apparently, not a single CSD has been fired, for over 20 years for producing poor customer service.
2. For many years the sickness absence of BA CC was averaging over 20 days per person per annum, and no-one bothered to manage that. Taking a sickie was an entitlement. (Normal private sector sickness absence for white collar workers is 4 to 6 days per annum.)
3. The "manager" always rang the TU to ask for permission to do something that was outwith the "industrial" agreements, and always meekly accepted what the Union demanded. There was often extra money for very, very, minor things.
4. BA could not predict the working hours of staff with any degree of accuracy, which lead to massive CC overmanning.
5. The "Spanish" practices were actually encouraged by the immediate foreman/manager - the CSD.
I could go on - that's enough.
So you are crew. You know that WW will be gone in a couple of years, off to a better CEO job with a decent Company, with better share options.
The middle managers have not yet all been fired - so you know that as soon as WW goes, all the old practices will return. That Aussie PhD was brought in to reform BA - nothing much changed. Altho' he got us some more very lucrative trips to India. All will revert to normal once WW has gone.
Wouldn't you think carefully about all that and decide to be logical, prudent, and sensible about the future of your job?? - Best to stick with the people who are really running BA - otherwise known as Bassa, and ignore all this temporary kerfuffle that WW is causing????.
Bassa are clearly the "Executive" of BA's CC Department, and have been for 20 to 30 years.
Why read anything sent by BA?? I'll keep reading the comms from the real Executive - Bassa.
Food for thought.
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AO - a depressing prospect you painted there. I can see the thinking behind it.
Time to join "Sir Beard's Flying Club", I think. Neither I, nor my company, are going to put up with more of the same nausea.
So, at some point, BASSA will be without an employer, and presumably be parading down the streets protesting about the levels of unemployment benefit. How sad: how pointless.
Time to join "Sir Beard's Flying Club", I think. Neither I, nor my company, are going to put up with more of the same nausea.
So, at some point, BASSA will be without an employer, and presumably be parading down the streets protesting about the levels of unemployment benefit. How sad: how pointless.
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WW
Why do so many posters on both threads appear to expect WW to vanish from the scene once the CC situation and BASSA has been resolved, (at least for this time). He has taken on a moribund operation, arising from mis-management, public ownership and practices dating back at least to the 1960's, and has started to convert it into a commercial operation, which nobody has previously had the guts to do.
There is still a long way to go, even without the challenges that the merger will bring and whatever problems lie within the current Iberia organisation (which no doubt Unite are eyeing up as opportunities for European expansion).
In the current situation I would think that from the personal level, there are enough challenges ahead to provide WW a very satisfying opportunity to guide and achieve an organisation which is a leader in its field, in modern organisation, customer and shareholder satisfaction and, in staff management, relations and rewards.
Granted that Utophia does take time, its still worth trying.
There is still a long way to go, even without the challenges that the merger will bring and whatever problems lie within the current Iberia organisation (which no doubt Unite are eyeing up as opportunities for European expansion).
In the current situation I would think that from the personal level, there are enough challenges ahead to provide WW a very satisfying opportunity to guide and achieve an organisation which is a leader in its field, in modern organisation, customer and shareholder satisfaction and, in staff management, relations and rewards.
Granted that Utophia does take time, its still worth trying.
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Just a general questions but as BASSA is the elected body to negotiate the collective agreement amongst the crew can BA legally ballot non union members and implement changes based on that ballot?
Here in Oz QANTAS for instance could ballot crew (union members or not) to get an idea of the feeling amongst the crew but to officially make changes it would have to be a ballot run by the union, therefore non union member would not have a say.
Here in Oz QANTAS for instance could ballot crew (union members or not) to get an idea of the feeling amongst the crew but to officially make changes it would have to be a ballot run by the union, therefore non union member would not have a say.
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BA can ask its staff whatever it likes, and do whatever it likes with the response, but in my opinion I'm sure it's more of an exercise of getting their side out there.
AO is right in as much as the stupid BASSA hive mind will be told to reject the offer, and will do so, lemming style, without really knowing why they are doing it.
Most of them are too
dumb to understand the situation their "leaders" have put them in anyway.
And let's face it, a hung parliament is not going to waste too much time getting involved in a minor labour dispute, so they'll probably let BA finish the job off.
The only sensible solution is to accept the offer before more damage is done; those that don't will absolutely deserve what they get. I do feel that WW will not penalise everyone, and is doing a good job of sorting out the wheat from the retarded BASSA chaff.
What utter nonsense these people spout.
AO is right in as much as the stupid BASSA hive mind will be told to reject the offer, and will do so, lemming style, without really knowing why they are doing it.
Most of them are too
dumb to understand the situation their "leaders" have put them in anyway.And let's face it, a hung parliament is not going to waste too much time getting involved in a minor labour dispute, so they'll probably let BA finish the job off.
The only sensible solution is to accept the offer before more damage is done; those that don't will absolutely deserve what they get. I do feel that WW will not penalise everyone, and is doing a good job of sorting out the wheat from the retarded BASSA chaff.
Contrary to much of the mainstream media coverage of the strikes painting unions as "unreasonable," Mr Woodley asserted to cabin crew: "We stand for a proper partnership with British Airways going forward, based on mutual respect and shared values.
"Such a scenario is unattainable on the basis of the offer before you, against the background which I have explained. That is why, while urging you to examine the offer carefully, I ask you to reject it and empower your negotiators to return to the company to seek the changes required on travel concessions and discipline."
"Such a scenario is unattainable on the basis of the offer before you, against the background which I have explained. That is why, while urging you to examine the offer carefully, I ask you to reject it and empower your negotiators to return to the company to seek the changes required on travel concessions and discipline."
Last edited by ChicoG; 1st May 2010 at 09:34.
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Monthly Travel payment
In The Way Forward BA says - We have provided protection for security of earnings, having agreed a new monthly travel payment, that consolidates existing variable payments for Heathrow fleets. The payment will be based on the average of the 2008 schedule. The company will adjust the monthly travel payment each year, in line with base pay.
On the other thread, MissM says - MTP seems like a good deal but it also says that it will be adjusted every year and based on the flight schedule. As routes go over to New Fleet there will be a reduction in flights on both EF and WW and logically the MTP rate would also be decreased.
I know MissM visits here occasionally, and I can't post there, but I'd like to know how from BA's words, she gets her interpretation?
As I see it, the adjustment if anything will be upwards in line with whatever % rise there is in basic pay. The starting amounts are based on the 2008 schedule and then get adjusted in line with basic pay, not on the 'old fleet' flight schedule as it reduces. Nowhere does BA say it will be adjusted according to the flight schedule, it specifically says in line with basic pay. Is this interpretation being pushed on the BASSA forum?
On the other thread, MissM says - MTP seems like a good deal but it also says that it will be adjusted every year and based on the flight schedule. As routes go over to New Fleet there will be a reduction in flights on both EF and WW and logically the MTP rate would also be decreased.
I know MissM visits here occasionally, and I can't post there, but I'd like to know how from BA's words, she gets her interpretation?
As I see it, the adjustment if anything will be upwards in line with whatever % rise there is in basic pay. The starting amounts are based on the 2008 schedule and then get adjusted in line with basic pay, not on the 'old fleet' flight schedule as it reduces. Nowhere does BA say it will be adjusted according to the flight schedule, it specifically says in line with basic pay. Is this interpretation being pushed on the BASSA forum?
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New Offer
Interesting to see that even Unite agree that the new offer addresses cc concerns and is a fair offer (although not as good as last summers offer 
)
Unites reasons for not recommending, ie disipline hearings (some of which criminal investigations are underway), re-istatement of non contractual staff travel perk with seniority (without seniority is in the offer) and that you can't beleive anything BA management say - ludicrous....
It shows a real lack of proffessionalism, not just from BASSA but now but Unite as well, Britains biggest Union - all you other Unite members out there, how do you feel about them making a IA condition upon letting off some of the people you saw bullying and harrasing on the Aurora video's et al....?
And the rhetoric on the Unite website and press releases - reminds me of "Red Robbo" and "Arthur Scargill" - these guys are still living in the '70s - not in a world financial crisis!!!!!
But, it does seem to me BA Mgt are getting their ducks in a row - after 12 weeks they can justify sacking all strikers if they show they have tried to reach a reasonable settlement......Unites rejection reasons of a fair offer (disipline hearings, ST and "their liars") just plays into BA's hands should it come to that outcome.....
Girls and guys - it's your future not mine, make sure your well informed and make the right choice....your reason for striking ie "imposition" has been re-solved and your concerns addressed - your now potentially striking to save 50 disipline hearings and some senior CSD crews benefits......
The end game is approaching and one side is holding P45's.....whats Unite holding now - indefinate strike? BA have the VCC's to handle that now with a full schedule.....
)Unites reasons for not recommending, ie disipline hearings (some of which criminal investigations are underway
), re-istatement of non contractual staff travel perk with seniority (without seniority is in the offer) and that you can't beleive anything BA management say - ludicrous....It shows a real lack of proffessionalism, not just from BASSA but now but Unite as well, Britains biggest Union - all you other Unite members out there, how do you feel about them making a IA condition upon letting off some of the people you saw bullying and harrasing on the Aurora video's et al....?
And the rhetoric on the Unite website and press releases - reminds me of "Red Robbo" and "Arthur Scargill" - these guys are still living in the '70s - not in a world financial crisis!!!!!
But, it does seem to me BA Mgt are getting their ducks in a row - after 12 weeks they can justify sacking all strikers if they show they have tried to reach a reasonable settlement......Unites rejection reasons of a fair offer (disipline hearings, ST and "their liars") just plays into BA's hands should it come to that outcome.....
Girls and guys - it's your future not mine, make sure your well informed and make the right choice....your reason for striking ie "imposition" has been re-solved and your concerns addressed - your now potentially striking to save 50 disipline hearings and some senior CSD crews benefits......
The end game is approaching and one side is holding P45's.....whats Unite holding now - indefinate strike? BA have the VCC's to handle that now with a full schedule.....
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Tony Woodleys letter
"This then leads on to the third and most general consideration why I ask you to reject the offer. It is this – any agreement is only as good as the integrity and sincerity of those putting their names to it. By their actions and behaviour throughout the dispute, and continuing to this day, it is impossible to take BA management’s words at their face value"
So, that means, if BA came back with an offer that disapeared the disipline hearings, reinstated staff travel, paid cc min £500k a year and gave them 1st class seating priority on any flight, no new fleet, a weeks layover for disruption, only 5 star hotels and 51 weeks a year holiday.....Unite would still have to reject it as it's "impossible to take BA managements words at their face value".........
For a very serious subject, that affects 10,000 peoples finances, mortgages, careers and well being, I am disappointed in that playground comment from Unite - do they not understand the implications to 1000's of crew?
So, that means, if BA came back with an offer that disapeared the disipline hearings, reinstated staff travel, paid cc min £500k a year and gave them 1st class seating priority on any flight, no new fleet, a weeks layover for disruption, only 5 star hotels and 51 weeks a year holiday.....Unite would still have to reject it as it's "impossible to take BA managements words at their face value".........
For a very serious subject, that affects 10,000 peoples finances, mortgages, careers and well being, I am disappointed in that playground comment from Unite - do they not understand the implications to 1000's of crew?
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10 to 12 day strike
Well at least this length of strike should give all CC a chance to actually demonstrate support or rejection of the Unions leadership. Surely all of them should be rostered to report to work in that time frame ??
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Not long now until much of the BASSA dead wood is removed, even if they don't care who they are sending out of the trenches on their behalf.
And yet still we don't have anyone brave enough to tell us how many BASSA reps there are, and how many avoided striking and the subsequent loss of ST by being downroute, off sick or not scheduled to work.
My guess is it's a much higher number than your rank and file BASSA member know, but do they have the conojes to actually ask?
How these BASSA reps have got away with the irreparable damage they have done to their members, I have no idea.
it really is a case of Accept the deal and look after yourself, or Reject the deal and look after the reps - who basically don't give a stuff about you anyway.
And yet still we don't have anyone brave enough to tell us how many BASSA reps there are, and how many avoided striking and the subsequent loss of ST by being downroute, off sick or not scheduled to work.
My guess is it's a much higher number than your rank and file BASSA member know, but do they have the conojes to actually ask?
How these BASSA reps have got away with the irreparable damage they have done to their members, I have no idea.
it really is a case of Accept the deal and look after yourself, or Reject the deal and look after the reps - who basically don't give a stuff about you anyway.
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4t2b:
Good point. Also good to remember that the pay lost will not just be for that 10-12 day period.
How many additional crew members are willing to risk loss of Staff Travel, a huge hit to their checkbooks, and the potential of eventual dismissal for purposes of saving the positions of a few BASSA reps?
Good point. Also good to remember that the pay lost will not just be for that 10-12 day period.
How many additional crew members are willing to risk loss of Staff Travel, a huge hit to their checkbooks, and the potential of eventual dismissal for purposes of saving the positions of a few BASSA reps?
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I'm with Baggers
I'm flying BA on 18/19 May. The GOOD people in BA will keep the airline operating ... and the diminishing numbers of headless chickens may rampage around Bedfont as I fly over them.
Eventually, they will realise how much their "Reps" have cost them. Although the probability {IMO] is that the hard-core militants are hobby-jobbers anyway, with not much to lose except cheap holiday flights for themselves, family, friends, the dog ....
Or am I being unfair?
FLYING BA
I'm flying BA on 18/19 May. The GOOD people in BA will keep the airline operating ... and the diminishing numbers of headless chickens may rampage around Bedfont as I fly over them.
Eventually, they will realise how much their "Reps" have cost them. Although the probability {IMO] is that the hard-core militants are hobby-jobbers anyway, with not much to lose except cheap holiday flights for themselves, family, friends, the dog ....
Or am I being unfair?
FLYING BA
Missing the point...............
I still think that some of the posters on here and on the crew thread are missing the point.
In my post 1271 I tried to "think" my way in to the Bassa mindset.
In crude summary, they really do not care about all this short term kerfuffle that WW has started.
In a couple of years, he'll have left to get a decent package somewhere else - maybe tax free in Emirates/Etihad, (0 tax rather than 50% tax) and all the old practices will be restored.
Most of the previous managers are still in place, and their grovelling approach to Bassa will be re-instated. No-one will get hot towels, not just in WT+.
Those fired by the WW regime will all get their jobs back, and Bassa will continue to be the real Executive for BA CC. The managers will grovel like they used to.
Bassa are takingthe 30 year view - WW is just taking a year by year view.
If BA really want to change they need to do what the old British Gas did, and remove the vast majority of the top 3 layers, and they need to import lots of non-Aviation types, who know about customer service.
(One of those removed in the BG purge is a "Director" in Aviation).
Can you imagine Tesco, Dulux, B & Q or Carphone Warehouse ringing up their "Union" (ifthey have one) asking the Union's permission to help customers??
BA are still doing that!!!! - they asked the Union for their permission to rescue customers and staff stuck in HKG. Complete madness.
In my post 1271 I tried to "think" my way in to the Bassa mindset.
In crude summary, they really do not care about all this short term kerfuffle that WW has started.
In a couple of years, he'll have left to get a decent package somewhere else - maybe tax free in Emirates/Etihad, (0 tax rather than 50% tax) and all the old practices will be restored.
Most of the previous managers are still in place, and their grovelling approach to Bassa will be re-instated. No-one will get hot towels, not just in WT+.
Those fired by the WW regime will all get their jobs back, and Bassa will continue to be the real Executive for BA CC. The managers will grovel like they used to.
Bassa are takingthe 30 year view - WW is just taking a year by year view.
If BA really want to change they need to do what the old British Gas did, and remove the vast majority of the top 3 layers, and they need to import lots of non-Aviation types, who know about customer service.
(One of those removed in the BG purge is a "Director" in Aviation).
Can you imagine Tesco, Dulux, B & Q or Carphone Warehouse ringing up their "Union" (ifthey have one) asking the Union's permission to help customers??
BA are still doing that!!!! - they asked the Union for their permission to rescue customers and staff stuck in HKG. Complete madness.