BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions
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errm. people die
Do you understand the primapry role of CC?
And yet again I do not support the BA IA.
I have however done the job and ask that this anti CC tirade stops.
I totally appreciate pax frustrations but we do play a key part in keeping you safe. Dont tar us all with the same brush and please accept that we do add SIGNIFIANT value to your wellbeing
Do you understand the primapry role of CC?
And yet again I do not support the BA IA.
I have however done the job and ask that this anti CC tirade stops.
I totally appreciate pax frustrations but we do play a key part in keeping you safe. Dont tar us all with the same brush and please accept that we do add SIGNIFIANT value to your wellbeing
Last edited by cym; 12th May 2010 at 21:57.
Paxing All Over The World
beaudale Welcome aboard and, if I may make so bold, if your next post is like your last - it will be your last! You might want to read more of the thread and read the FAQ? Also check out posts from the late pencisely, he understands how the system works. Of course, you might have been following this forum for some time as a guest. If so, you will know that PPRuNe is run by one man as a dictatorship and all the Moderators follow a set of rules. Further, the Mods are volunteers who do this in their spare time. Our Mod TightSlot has a full time working job in the airline world and is familiar with pax, cabin crew and the whole shooting match.
Enjoy your time here ...
Enjoy your time here ...
Thread Starter
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This thread has enjoyed a very wide degree of latitude and tolerance from the start, partly in recognition of the frustration engendered by the strikes and partly because of the frustration created by the restriction on posting in the CC forum.
May I remind all of you that the BA strike does not involve all BA crew and neither does it involve crew from other airlines who, like many BA crew, simply go to work each day to do their best for everybody - an in general succeed.
It is apparent that some of you hold FA's in very low esteem, if not contempt, both as a group of people, and as a job. That is your privilege, but as a matter of simple courtesy, as long as you are posting on a site primarily used by air crew, it is reasonable to expect that you dial down the public expressions of contempt on a general basis.
Thank you
May I remind all of you that the BA strike does not involve all BA crew and neither does it involve crew from other airlines who, like many BA crew, simply go to work each day to do their best for everybody - an in general succeed.
It is apparent that some of you hold FA's in very low esteem, if not contempt, both as a group of people, and as a job. That is your privilege, but as a matter of simple courtesy, as long as you are posting on a site primarily used by air crew, it is reasonable to expect that you dial down the public expressions of contempt on a general basis.
Thank you
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Strange how a mod can crow about banning a SLF arguing the case for a reduction in CC, perhaps a bit too close to the bone??
CC need to realise that they are in danger of being seen as nothing more than a impediment to air travel.
So you have been trained to operate emergency and safety equipment, well guess what, a lot of your PAX do that, and more; there is NOTHING special about what you do in your duties, get your heads around that and it's a starting place.
CC need to realise that they are in danger of being seen as nothing more than a impediment to air travel.
So you have been trained to operate emergency and safety equipment, well guess what, a lot of your PAX do that, and more; there is NOTHING special about what you do in your duties, get your heads around that and it's a starting place.
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Cym
Believe me I do understand a lot more about flying and the industry than any of you might give me credit for.
I think the points I raise are indeed very valid and it would be nice to receive an explanatory response.
My line of argument seems to have touched several nerves which is surprising given this is a Pax forum.
Nowadays I do spend a lot of time as a Pax and one who is increasingly frustrated by this nonsense IA. If I were doing WW's job I would certainly be actively progressing, as I am sure here is, the mechanism for firing the whole lot. Furthermore I would be starting to explore for the longer term how cc can be removed from the aircraft altogether or at least significantly reduced in number.
Please advise me what is invalid about the comparison with a Eurostar train, 800 Pax, 1 CC?
I think the points I raise are indeed very valid and it would be nice to receive an explanatory response.
My line of argument seems to have touched several nerves which is surprising given this is a Pax forum.
Nowadays I do spend a lot of time as a Pax and one who is increasingly frustrated by this nonsense IA. If I were doing WW's job I would certainly be actively progressing, as I am sure here is, the mechanism for firing the whole lot. Furthermore I would be starting to explore for the longer term how cc can be removed from the aircraft altogether or at least significantly reduced in number.
Please advise me what is invalid about the comparison with a Eurostar train, 800 Pax, 1 CC?
CC need to realise that they are in danger of being seen as nothing more than a impediment to air travel.
So you have been trained to operate emergency and safety equipment, well guess what, a lot of your PAX do that, and more; there is NOTHING special about what you do in your duties, get your heads around that and it's a starting place.
So you have been trained to operate emergency and safety equipment, well guess what, a lot of your PAX do that, and more; there is NOTHING special about what you do in your duties, get your heads around that and it's a starting place.
And courtesy costs nothing, even in cyberspace.
Paxing All Over The World
Come on you folks, do your best to lower the debate, to ruin long built trust and make sure that those who are genuinely interested in safe air travel want to leave. There are countless forums in the world where you can mouth off, happily, this is not one of them.
[PAXboy draws up a chair and sits back to watch the entertainment.
]
[PAXboy draws up a chair and sits back to watch the entertainment.
]
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where is o2 on a 767?emergency med kits? how do you deal with galley or toliet fires? what checks to you need to carry out before using a door in the case of an emergency landing?
words fail me
words fail me
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@Cym
Like i said earlier, i am not downplaying your role at all, It is one of great importance but in the grand scheme of things and compared to other roles it isn't that big a job. Yes the worst case scenerio is loss of life if it goes wrong but again thats the case in other walks of life. The issue that the CC who are striking will soon be facing is one of job losses, Six months to train somebody is not very long and with quite a few volunteer crew lined up CC are soon going to find out just how easily replacable they are, far easier i would imagine than the customers that BA will be loseing. If i was a Employee considering strikeing then i would pay close attention to the statement from Mr Walsh thats been copied on this forum.
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Just for your general illumination, I wrote the set of rules the moderators follow back in 2003. Not Danny, me, with help advice and input from all the other moderators.
This is NOT a dictatorship. If you could see the level of debate between moderators you would see how seriously we treat this voluntary role. Tightslot is completely correct, you have no absolute right to post on here, and given the nature of the site it is not untoward to expect a degree of respect to be shown towards those towards whom the site is aimed. That, fundamentally, is the crew on board an aircraft, and not the passengers. This area of the forum has been set up to allow debate and interaction between passengers and crew, and the expectation of a degree of respect to be shown is not unreasonable. For your information, the other forum moderators are 100% behind the way this thread, and the other threads relating to this dispute are being ran. I am posting in my role as a moderator with a remit over the entire site, and in support of the moderators handling this thread.
So basically, we understand how this issue will inflame passions and opinions. We are more than aware that this particular arena of the site will attract comment negative towards cabin crew. But that does not give you carte blanche to continually thrust your particular point of view, regardless of any reasonable moderator input, into the face of every poster on the site. Bear in mind that you are talking to humans, not numbers on a computer, but humans.
Respect the opinons that are contrary to your own, respect the safety-critical job that is under debate here, and respect the simple fact that you are given this place to vent your frustrations by the, again, simple fact that those of us who can influence the running of this site have realised that there is a reason to allow passengers their place to speak.
That action does not give you the right to continually demean Cabin Crew, and myself and the other moderators, whose input you may not always see, stand fully behind the way this forum is being ran.
And for the record, no. I'm not Cabin Crew. But I back Tightslot's actions fully, and personally look to this forum as an exemplar of how to moderate such a diverse public.
Squid
This is NOT a dictatorship. If you could see the level of debate between moderators you would see how seriously we treat this voluntary role. Tightslot is completely correct, you have no absolute right to post on here, and given the nature of the site it is not untoward to expect a degree of respect to be shown towards those towards whom the site is aimed. That, fundamentally, is the crew on board an aircraft, and not the passengers. This area of the forum has been set up to allow debate and interaction between passengers and crew, and the expectation of a degree of respect to be shown is not unreasonable. For your information, the other forum moderators are 100% behind the way this thread, and the other threads relating to this dispute are being ran. I am posting in my role as a moderator with a remit over the entire site, and in support of the moderators handling this thread.
So basically, we understand how this issue will inflame passions and opinions. We are more than aware that this particular arena of the site will attract comment negative towards cabin crew. But that does not give you carte blanche to continually thrust your particular point of view, regardless of any reasonable moderator input, into the face of every poster on the site. Bear in mind that you are talking to humans, not numbers on a computer, but humans.
Respect the opinons that are contrary to your own, respect the safety-critical job that is under debate here, and respect the simple fact that you are given this place to vent your frustrations by the, again, simple fact that those of us who can influence the running of this site have realised that there is a reason to allow passengers their place to speak.
That action does not give you the right to continually demean Cabin Crew, and myself and the other moderators, whose input you may not always see, stand fully behind the way this forum is being ran.
And for the record, no. I'm not Cabin Crew. But I back Tightslot's actions fully, and personally look to this forum as an exemplar of how to moderate such a diverse public.
Squid
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whilst I stick by all my posts and welcome PM's from those who may disagree and welcome debate I do feel that I have unintentionally taken this tread off track.
As such, to all passengers (BA or not) I apologise and withdraw
Safe flying to you all
As such, to all passengers (BA or not) I apologise and withdraw
Safe flying to you all
Last edited by cym; 12th May 2010 at 23:48.
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Now here is a funny thing, on a Pacific Blue flight earlier this week, sitting on a 737 (row 15 emergency exit) and was briefed by the CC what to do in the event of emergency, part of which is to get the life rafts from the overhead stowage in the aisle roof before jettisoning the emergency exit (having checked outside for fire etc fiirst)... all makes sense but oops!
Do we take them if we crash on the land I ask? Fortunately CC had a sense of humour (best safety brief ever by the way and the service was fantastic, and yes I did thank them).
Now even though the 737 I flew on from Perth to Sydney (Virgin Blue) flies for 2 hours over water (again I was in row 15) I was not briefed on life raft removal, but was on the emergency exit procedure.
Anyway my point? Well I understand the CAA set the numbers i.e CC to pax/aircraft type, but clearly it is not set by emergency exit numbers as on this 737 (same is true of Qantas and Virgin Blue). On this flight there were only 59 pax (4 CC), so on a 747, for example 400 pax = 8 crew? How does it work?
And how is the duty of care to those passengers that do not have a CC member at the emergency exit equate to those that do?
Bottom line, if BA are able to afford to place CC on a/c to 'man up' every exit, then they get my vote, I believe the training, expertise and familiarity in the event of an emergency being paramount; Ultimately you are not paid for what you do, but what you know; ergo, if you never use the training and experience you have, Great... however, when the proverbial does hit the fan...
Oops apologies CC = FA, old skool I'm afraid, ie not flightdeck crew but pilot/co
Do we take them if we crash on the land I ask? Fortunately CC had a sense of humour (best safety brief ever by the way and the service was fantastic, and yes I did thank them).
Now even though the 737 I flew on from Perth to Sydney (Virgin Blue) flies for 2 hours over water (again I was in row 15) I was not briefed on life raft removal, but was on the emergency exit procedure.
Anyway my point? Well I understand the CAA set the numbers i.e CC to pax/aircraft type, but clearly it is not set by emergency exit numbers as on this 737 (same is true of Qantas and Virgin Blue). On this flight there were only 59 pax (4 CC), so on a 747, for example 400 pax = 8 crew? How does it work?
And how is the duty of care to those passengers that do not have a CC member at the emergency exit equate to those that do?
Bottom line, if BA are able to afford to place CC on a/c to 'man up' every exit, then they get my vote, I believe the training, expertise and familiarity in the event of an emergency being paramount; Ultimately you are not paid for what you do, but what you know; ergo, if you never use the training and experience you have, Great... however, when the proverbial does hit the fan...
Oops apologies CC = FA, old skool I'm afraid, ie not flightdeck crew but pilot/co
Thread Starter
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Worth pointing out that the CAA rules affect British registered aircraft, not Australian.
The minimum crew is set by a combination of the 1/50 or part rule and a requirement for a crew member at each 'Main' door. Hence, for example, a 747 with 10 main deck doors and 2 upper deck doors would require a minimum crew of 12, one for each main door, even though the actual passenger capacity is not between 551 and 600 (1/50 or part). There is some scope for minor variation, but this must be authorised by the CAA: For example a charter 757 (a narrow body aircraft) in a 235 config has a legal minimum crew of 5 (1/50) although it has 8 'Main' doors. The minimum rises to 6 on ETOPS sectors, because of the life-raft requirement. A 737 has 4 'Main' doors with a minimum crew of 3 (737-800 can be 4) under the 1/50 rule.
737 o/wing exits are not classified as 'doors', but 'exits', and in the UK, classified as 'Self-Help' exits i.e. a briefing to pax is sufficient, together with restrictions on who may occupy those seats.
Life rafts are carried as additional equipment on ETOPS sectors: PER-SYD may fly over water, but probably not under ETOPS flight rules and therefore there would be no requirement to brief for ETOPS equipment.
The long and the short of it is that the minimum crew is set by the licensing authority, and airlines do not have the right to vary the minimum on an ad-hoc basis.
May we now move off this subject and back on-topic please
The minimum crew is set by a combination of the 1/50 or part rule and a requirement for a crew member at each 'Main' door. Hence, for example, a 747 with 10 main deck doors and 2 upper deck doors would require a minimum crew of 12, one for each main door, even though the actual passenger capacity is not between 551 and 600 (1/50 or part). There is some scope for minor variation, but this must be authorised by the CAA: For example a charter 757 (a narrow body aircraft) in a 235 config has a legal minimum crew of 5 (1/50) although it has 8 'Main' doors. The minimum rises to 6 on ETOPS sectors, because of the life-raft requirement. A 737 has 4 'Main' doors with a minimum crew of 3 (737-800 can be 4) under the 1/50 rule.
737 o/wing exits are not classified as 'doors', but 'exits', and in the UK, classified as 'Self-Help' exits i.e. a briefing to pax is sufficient, together with restrictions on who may occupy those seats.
Life rafts are carried as additional equipment on ETOPS sectors: PER-SYD may fly over water, but probably not under ETOPS flight rules and therefore there would be no requirement to brief for ETOPS equipment.
The long and the short of it is that the minimum crew is set by the licensing authority, and airlines do not have the right to vary the minimum on an ad-hoc basis.
May we now move off this subject and back on-topic please
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I'm absolutely stunned that there are individuals who believe that life without CC would be acceptable.
I understand that there are those individuals that simply wish to get there safely and as cheaply as possible. However, there are many of us who actually look forward to knowing that while we are flying to our various destinations we will be made as comfortable as possible and that simply can't happen without professional Cabin Crew.
My feeling towards BASSA's leadership and its more militant members has developed into a feeling of what is best described as amusement and disdain at times...but even I would never wish for flights without that wonderful person offering me a glass of champagne with a smile. Perish the thought!!!!
I understand that there are those individuals that simply wish to get there safely and as cheaply as possible. However, there are many of us who actually look forward to knowing that while we are flying to our various destinations we will be made as comfortable as possible and that simply can't happen without professional Cabin Crew.
My feeling towards BASSA's leadership and its more militant members has developed into a feeling of what is best described as amusement and disdain at times...but even I would never wish for flights without that wonderful person offering me a glass of champagne with a smile. Perish the thought!!!!
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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I.A.W Tightslot's request
BA reckon they will fly more than 70% of their customers during the strike period - a terrific achievement - and I'm sure the service and smiles those 70%+ see will be rewarding indeed. A full programme is expected at LGW and LCY.
BA reckon they will fly more than 70% of their customers during the strike period - a terrific achievement - and I'm sure the service and smiles those 70%+ see will be rewarding indeed. A full programme is expected at LGW and LCY.
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BOAC
Are we to see more "Flystar" aircraft in LHR over the forthcoming strike action? I do hope so, Had the good fortune to be on one of AEU's aircraft on a BA replacement. Very good service.....infact, whilst not wanting to anger the BA CC on here, better than BA! Shame you guys pulled out of the IT market.
Are we to see more "Flystar" aircraft in LHR over the forthcoming strike action? I do hope so, Had the good fortune to be on one of AEU's aircraft on a BA replacement. Very good service.....infact, whilst not wanting to anger the BA CC on here, better than BA! Shame you guys pulled out of the IT market.
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As you all know, the first week of flight schedules has been released on ba.com
My LH on Wednesday, LHR-IAD, was cancelled. It appears that route has had capacity reduced by some 50% by the withdrawal of the late morning departure.
A call to BA, answered almost immediately, got us re-booked on the afternoon flight ... and the subsequent return sectors adjusted as well. A couple of minutes later, our revised itinerary was on-screen ready for printing.
Now I call that GOOD service under the prevailing circumstances.
My LH on Wednesday, LHR-IAD, was cancelled. It appears that route has had capacity reduced by some 50% by the withdrawal of the late morning departure.
A call to BA, answered almost immediately, got us re-booked on the afternoon flight ... and the subsequent return sectors adjusted as well. A couple of minutes later, our revised itinerary was on-screen ready for printing.
Now I call that GOOD service under the prevailing circumstances.
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I think we should get this down to the nuts and bolts...
BA CC do a great job, (for me no argument there) however, so do all the other airlines out there.
(yes, right across the board! lo cost high cost, call them what you like!).
And for pax to comment on how much better the BA service is without the striking crew speaks volumes....
BA CC do a great job, (for me no argument there) however, so do all the other airlines out there.
(yes, right across the board! lo cost high cost, call them what you like!).
And for pax to comment on how much better the BA service is without the striking crew speaks volumes....