BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions
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@ AO ... I am completely with you in your Doomsday scenario.
My only reservation is whether the intellectual dwarves of BASSA and Unite actually think that deeply. Do you honestly think they take a 30-year view? From my reading over the last 6 months, they wouldn't recognise a buffer if they were perched on the front of a train. I suspect you give them credit for 79.7% more intelligence than they actually have.
My only reservation is whether the intellectual dwarves of BASSA and Unite actually think that deeply. Do you honestly think they take a 30-year view? From my reading over the last 6 months, they wouldn't recognise a buffer if they were perched on the front of a train. I suspect you give them credit for 79.7% more intelligence than they actually have.
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We get abused on, and are banned from the other thread for daring to state that it isn't that hard to be member of cabin crew - in any role.
I know cabin crew who have done CC work on their gap year because it's a cheap way of doing what they want to do - travel. They have degrees and are more qualified than half of the muppets that now "run" BASSA.
Unfortunately, the old guard that run BASSA don't give a
about the people that have joined BA CC in the last five or ten years.
Look forward 30 years? Give me a break, they can't look past their next lucky break. If the job was that and they could get one that paid that well and had added bonuses like partying a lot and lots of duty free, they would have taken it.
Time to give the jobs to people that deserve it, rather than the people who have frankly got so tired and expectant that they think they can do what they like and still get a wage packet that would satisfy people far more capable and interested.
The old hand BA cabin crew were bringing BA down a lot earlier than credit crunches and volcanic ash clouds.
I know cabin crew who have done CC work on their gap year because it's a cheap way of doing what they want to do - travel. They have degrees and are more qualified than half of the muppets that now "run" BASSA.
Unfortunately, the old guard that run BASSA don't give a
about the people that have joined BA CC in the last five or ten years.Look forward 30 years? Give me a break, they can't look past their next lucky break. If the job was that
and they could get one that paid that well and had added bonuses like partying a lot and lots of duty free, they would have taken it.Time to give the jobs to people that deserve it, rather than the people who have frankly got so tired and expectant that they think they can do what they like and still get a wage packet that would satisfy people far more capable and interested.
The old hand BA cabin crew were bringing BA down a lot earlier than credit crunches and volcanic ash clouds.
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AO - I doubt BASSA have the intellect to think like that. WW isn't going anywhere. He will be CEO of the BA/Iberia Topco and I can't see the new BA Opco CEO Keith Williams (currently CFO) being much different in approach.
To give an indication of how New Fleet could render BASSA redundant, look at what happened after the ash cloud disruption.
BA wanted to fly an additional empty aircraft to HKG with a crew to bring stranded passengers back home, but with the 2 night stop reduced to 1 night. BASSA said no because CC would be "operating" on the empty outbound flight (an aircraft with a full complement of crew and no passengers must be such hard work!), instead of just positioning.
So what happened? BA crewed the flight largely with volunteer cabin crew and existing CC lost work (the first sign of the law of unintended consequences from the strike contingency plans).
When New Fleet gains critical mass (which given the fact there is no seniority and fewer supervisory positions, is unlikely to be heavily unionised) with none of the restrictive practices enjoyed by current CC, BASSA's negotiating strength will diminish hugely. When it comes to new routes, product changes, disruption, if they don't play ball they will be sidelined.
If BASSA were really playing the long game they would have seen that the biggest threat to their influence (which is what this dispute is really about) is New Fleet and they would have negotiated over BA's initially (by comparison) very modest proposals and negotiated hard to obtain assurances that there would be no New Fleet.
To give an indication of how New Fleet could render BASSA redundant, look at what happened after the ash cloud disruption.
BA wanted to fly an additional empty aircraft to HKG with a crew to bring stranded passengers back home, but with the 2 night stop reduced to 1 night. BASSA said no because CC would be "operating" on the empty outbound flight (an aircraft with a full complement of crew and no passengers must be such hard work!), instead of just positioning.
So what happened? BA crewed the flight largely with volunteer cabin crew and existing CC lost work (the first sign of the law of unintended consequences from the strike contingency plans).
When New Fleet gains critical mass (which given the fact there is no seniority and fewer supervisory positions, is unlikely to be heavily unionised) with none of the restrictive practices enjoyed by current CC, BASSA's negotiating strength will diminish hugely. When it comes to new routes, product changes, disruption, if they don't play ball they will be sidelined.
If BASSA were really playing the long game they would have seen that the biggest threat to their influence (which is what this dispute is really about) is New Fleet and they would have negotiated over BA's initially (by comparison) very modest proposals and negotiated hard to obtain assurances that there would be no New Fleet.
Last edited by LD12986; 4th May 2010 at 20:46.
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If BASSA were really playing the long game
Which probably explains why they've made such an absolute mess of things.
The lack of intellect at bassa is a fair point. However, BA has got the TU that it deserves. Bassa believes that if it ignores this short term stuff, the old ways will soon return.
Weak, spineless and ignorant managers are their main problem.
No TU would have prospered as well as bassa have done if the managers had been even vaguely competent. 30 years of monumentally incompetent managers have given bassa their powerbase.
I am not at all surprised that BA CC just ignore BA comms., and only read what bassa send out. That approach has done well for them over the last 30 years.
Unless WW removes most of the old guard of BA CC managers, and imports decent customer service managers from high quality customer service companies, then his changes will have no long term impact.
As to him leaving, his earnings are very restricted at BA. If he worked for TPG, for instance, (private equity who own large slugs of Aviation stock, and whose founder chairs Ryan), the he would earn about 20 times his BA package.
I bet he won't be at BA in 3 years time. Topco is just too small a job for him, paying too little in a high-tax country. Hogan will be leaving Etihad in a year or two. Just the right job for WW.
Weak, spineless and ignorant managers are their main problem.
No TU would have prospered as well as bassa have done if the managers had been even vaguely competent. 30 years of monumentally incompetent managers have given bassa their powerbase.
I am not at all surprised that BA CC just ignore BA comms., and only read what bassa send out. That approach has done well for them over the last 30 years.
Unless WW removes most of the old guard of BA CC managers, and imports decent customer service managers from high quality customer service companies, then his changes will have no long term impact.
As to him leaving, his earnings are very restricted at BA. If he worked for TPG, for instance, (private equity who own large slugs of Aviation stock, and whose founder chairs Ryan), the he would earn about 20 times his BA package.
I bet he won't be at BA in 3 years time. Topco is just too small a job for him, paying too little in a high-tax country. Hogan will be leaving Etihad in a year or two. Just the right job for WW.
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@ AO ...
From what I read here and on other Forums, the catering side needs some new management blood as part of that equation.
However, I digress.
Unless WW removes most of the old guard of BA CC managers, and imports decent customer service managers from high quality customer service companies, then his changes will have no long term impact.
However, I digress.
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One of the CC posters on the other thread seems to think the real argument is about a 'new' redeployment agreement! The fact that the offer to CC has no mention of any revised redeployment agreement, so they wouldn't be signing to up to anything re that, and that if BA wants to do this (as well it might) it will need to be company wide as was the Pension agreement, seems to have escaped him/her.
Agreed any new redeployment agreement may well need serious union attention, but that is not what the current strike is about. But it seems that BASSA may have succeeded in making CC vote on the basis of something that has not happened yet - and if it does Unite who represent many BA staff (as opposed to BASSA who represent CC only) genuinely need to negotiate from a position of strength, which BASSA is undermining.
Agreed any new redeployment agreement may well need serious union attention, but that is not what the current strike is about. But it seems that BASSA may have succeeded in making CC vote on the basis of something that has not happened yet - and if it does Unite who represent many BA staff (as opposed to BASSA who represent CC only) genuinely need to negotiate from a position of strength, which BASSA is undermining.
Paxing All Over The World
baggersup
It has worked so darn well for Tony Blair all these years - why shouldn't other people use it too?
Heck, many in the USA thought that Saddam had instigated 9/11 attacks when it was only about the oil - and George Jr wanting to give a bl00dy nose to the man who gave a bl00dy nose to his daddikins. Boys will be boys.
Yup, classic misdirection technique
Heck, many in the USA thought that Saddam had instigated 9/11 attacks when it was only about the oil - and George Jr wanting to give a bl00dy nose to the man who gave a bl00dy nose to his daddikins. Boys will be boys.
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Paxboy
Interesting that you should use this as an example bearing in mind this recent research, which showed that, for people who believed that Iraq had WMD, providing them with corrective information showing that that was not the case had the effect of strengthening the original belief. Which probably goes a long way to explaining why those on each side of the BA dispute don't tend to get very far when debating on this forum!
Pohutu
Heck, many in the USA thought that Saddam had instigated 9/11 attacks when it was only about the oil
Pohutu
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Goes to prove the old adage .............. Never bite the hand(s) that feed you ..................... The've got the turkey, but where's BASSA going to get Holley at Christmas now.
Be interesting to see what other fallout comes about.
Be interesting to see what other fallout comes about.
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And the looney lefties at the Socialist Worker squeal like little piglets once more:
BA are not backing down over the disciplinaries and they are not up for negotiation. Surely sacking the Branch Secretary on the final day of the ballot should get the message through their thick and rather empty skulls?
They really are just a little bit thick, aren't they?
British Airways has escalated its war against cabin crew.
Today BA sacked Duncan Holley, secretary of Bassa, the cabin crew section of the Unite union. He held the position for 12 years.
Duncan has been one of the people leading the struggle against BA boss Willie Walsh’s attacks on workers. BA claims it has sacked him for “gross misconduct”.
In reality it is waging war against the union in an attempt to ram through cuts.
Duncan’s sacking is a deliberate provocation to cabin crew. It is further proof that Walsh is not interesting in resolving the dispute. Instead, he is throwing petrol on the fire.
Unite’s leadership must launch a campaign for Duncan’s reinstatement immediately. His reinstatement should be added to the list of demands that cabin crew are already fighting for in their dispute with BA.
Cabin crew must not stand for the victimising of their union reps. They must intensify their demands for a lengthy, hard-hitting strike that can bring down Willie Walsh.
Today BA sacked Duncan Holley, secretary of Bassa, the cabin crew section of the Unite union. He held the position for 12 years.
Duncan has been one of the people leading the struggle against BA boss Willie Walsh’s attacks on workers. BA claims it has sacked him for “gross misconduct”.
In reality it is waging war against the union in an attempt to ram through cuts.
Duncan’s sacking is a deliberate provocation to cabin crew. It is further proof that Walsh is not interesting in resolving the dispute. Instead, he is throwing petrol on the fire.
Unite’s leadership must launch a campaign for Duncan’s reinstatement immediately. His reinstatement should be added to the list of demands that cabin crew are already fighting for in their dispute with BA.
Cabin crew must not stand for the victimising of their union reps. They must intensify their demands for a lengthy, hard-hitting strike that can bring down Willie Walsh.
They really are just a little bit thick, aren't they?
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I wonder if this is a flex of muscle by BA before the vote is closed......
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Snas:
Taking BASSA's comments prior to the hearing, and Mr. Holley's commentary afterwards I'm going to go out on a limb and say I believe this was probably the result of a routine disciplinary hearing.
Mr. Holley is not giving any vigorous defense in his statements, certainly hasn't said that BA didn't have cause for the firing, and is only crying that it was "retalitory".
The interesting question is that given that Mr. Holley shows up for his Cabin Crew duties so rarely how did they notice he was gone
Taking BASSA's comments prior to the hearing, and Mr. Holley's commentary afterwards I'm going to go out on a limb and say I believe this was probably the result of a routine disciplinary hearing.
Mr. Holley is not giving any vigorous defense in his statements, certainly hasn't said that BA didn't have cause for the firing, and is only crying that it was "retalitory".
The interesting question is that given that Mr. Holley shows up for his Cabin Crew duties so rarely how did they notice he was gone
Last edited by Diplome; 6th May 2010 at 15:29.
Paxing All Over The World
Thanks for the link Pohutu, I do know that site and have read his book.
I am not surprised that people are entrenched in their views. One of the aspects of human nature that I have noted with amusement is that, when politicians (say) find that their policies are not working, they do not say. "Let's think about this" but "What we need is MORE of the same, we're just not being strong enough" and "One last shove".
The same may be said to apply to trades unionists. Which means that they are human after all.
I am not surprised that people are entrenched in their views. One of the aspects of human nature that I have noted with amusement is that, when politicians (say) find that their policies are not working, they do not say. "Let's think about this" but "What we need is MORE of the same, we're just not being strong enough" and "One last shove".
The same may be said to apply to trades unionists. Which means that they are human after all.
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Re Duncan Holley
From the "other" thread:
My bold.
Those six days wouldn't have co-incided with the proposed strike by any chance - er would they?
Allegedley DH wanted 6 days off, (before Christmas) but BA said he couldn't have six days. DH decided to take 6 days anyway, thereby being absent from work without appropriate authority. Self-induced problem?
Those six days wouldn't have co-incided with the proposed strike by any chance - er would they?
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Dawdler, you might think that - I couldn't possibly comment.
However, granting Mr Holley time off to concentrate on his efforts to damage BA seems an 'interesting' management conundrum!
However, granting Mr Holley time off to concentrate on his efforts to damage BA seems an 'interesting' management conundrum!
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I imagine that Mr Holley's hearing was the best prepared hearing in the history of BA. Presumably that's why it's taken so long to come to fruition, to give time for the legals to cross the 'Ts' & dot the 'Is'.