BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions
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I have asked this before but with no response from the BASSA supporter(s):
Have any of the BASSA leadership actually been on strike so that they lose their staff travel and have pay deducted. or have they left all the sacrifices to the poor rabbits that they claim to represent?
Did they notice the way their hated boss, Willie Walsh, demonstrated real leadership by being on the BA test flight the other day?
They should remember the old maxim of lead, follow or get the hell out of the way as they seem to be doing none of these things!
Have any of the BASSA leadership actually been on strike so that they lose their staff travel and have pay deducted. or have they left all the sacrifices to the poor rabbits that they claim to represent?
Did they notice the way their hated boss, Willie Walsh, demonstrated real leadership by being on the BA test flight the other day?
They should remember the old maxim of lead, follow or get the hell out of the way as they seem to be doing none of these things!
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Have any of the BASSA leadership actually been on strike so that they lose their staff travel?
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This from the staff board. A posting from BASSA regarding a new offer:
Is BASSA truly going to recommend rejecting an offer or hesitate to put it to a vote of its members because of the disciplinary procedures? Why not simply let those go through the normal channels and if wrongdoing is found it will have to be answered for and if the individual who's conduct is being questioned is found to be not at fault they will simply be reinstated.
It is unreasonable to request that the entire membership pay for the poor conduct of a few individuals.
The document outlined a potential proposal to settle the current dispute and a way forward for the future. The document covers the following areas.
Pay awards
Crewing levels
New fleet
Protections for existing crew
Monthly travel payment
Transfers
Promotions
Future relationship
Disruption
Part time
Contractual employment policy changes
Not all of the areas were clearly worded and subject to interpretation and therefore further clarity has been sought. When we have received that clarity and when the outstanding items are resolved, we shall publish the entire document for your review.
Two pivotal issues remain unresolved -
Reinstatement of staff travel and the dispute related disciplinaries.
We know this is incredibly frustrating for you, as it is for us. But be assured, any next step will rest with you.
You as the members will have the final say
Pay awards
Crewing levels
New fleet
Protections for existing crew
Monthly travel payment
Transfers
Promotions
Future relationship
Disruption
Part time
Contractual employment policy changes
Not all of the areas were clearly worded and subject to interpretation and therefore further clarity has been sought. When we have received that clarity and when the outstanding items are resolved, we shall publish the entire document for your review.
Two pivotal issues remain unresolved -
Reinstatement of staff travel and the dispute related disciplinaries.
We know this is incredibly frustrating for you, as it is for us. But be assured, any next step will rest with you.
You as the members will have the final say
It is unreasonable to request that the entire membership pay for the poor conduct of a few individuals.
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If the identity of the registrar of the "fake" PCCC site with digusting porn links on it was confirmed, then that person will undoubtedly be fired.
And if it is the person to whom the evidence pointed, quite near the top of the BASSA food chain, then BASSA members should be made aware of this fact.
If the BASSA politburo choose to stall the chance for a settlement to protect this worthless little
, then it really is time for them to go.
And if it is the person to whom the evidence pointed, quite near the top of the BASSA food chain, then BASSA members should be made aware of this fact.
If the BASSA politburo choose to stall the chance for a settlement to protect this worthless little
, then it really is time for them to go.
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ChicoG:
I couldn't agree more.
That particular event was simply beyond the pale and no employer should be asked to condone such conduct.
BASSA surely won't smear the rest of their membership by making an endorsement contingent upon approval of that action.
I couldn't agree more.
That particular event was simply beyond the pale and no employer should be asked to condone such conduct.
BASSA surely won't smear the rest of their membership by making an endorsement contingent upon approval of that action.
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When we have received that clarity and when the outstanding items are resolved, we shall publish the entire document for your review.
Two pivotal issues remain unresolved -
Reinstatement of staff travel and the dispute related disciplinaries.
We know this is incredibly frustrating for you, as it is for us. But be assured, any next step will rest with you.
You as the members will have the final say
Two pivotal issues remain unresolved -
Reinstatement of staff travel and the dispute related disciplinaries.
We know this is incredibly frustrating for you, as it is for us. But be assured, any next step will rest with you.
You as the members will have the final say
Why did the members, by a show of hands at a race course, vote not to negotiate when they hadn't had a chance to see what BA was proposing?
Why weren't the members given 'the final say' before the second strike?
Why did BASSA announce a further strike instead of publishing BA's last offer?
What has the second strike achieved?
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Paddy:
There you go asking inconvenient questions
It is amazing that BASSA membership have had been given NO opportunity as of this date to vote on any of the proposals put forth by BA.
It makes the last statement in their recent missive bizarre in the extreme.
My personal view is that this strike has managed to weaken BASSA, marginalize the more militant members, strengthen BA's management of its airline and BASSA are right now in the pathetic position of scrambling to defend the loss of staff travel and disciplinary procedures that only exist because of their poor leadership.
..and most amusingly, Mr. Walsh is now very much admired by the public.
One has to laugh or you cry.
There you go asking inconvenient questions
It is amazing that BASSA membership have had been given NO opportunity as of this date to vote on any of the proposals put forth by BA.
It makes the last statement in their recent missive bizarre in the extreme.
My personal view is that this strike has managed to weaken BASSA, marginalize the more militant members, strengthen BA's management of its airline and BASSA are right now in the pathetic position of scrambling to defend the loss of staff travel and disciplinary procedures that only exist because of their poor leadership.
..and most amusingly, Mr. Walsh is now very much admired by the public.
One has to laugh or you cry.
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Amidst all the excitement of volcanic ash, I thought Unite or someone was supposed to making statement on Tuesday [yesterday].
Or is that nebulous statement on the CC Thread it for now?
Or is that nebulous statement on the CC Thread it for now?
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And here's another one, Diplome
Paddy:
There you go asking inconvenient questions
It is amazing that BASSA membership have had been given NO opportunity as of this date to vote on any of the proposals put forth by BA.
It makes the last statement in their recent missive bizarre in the extreme.
My personal view is that this strike has managed to weaken BASSA, marginalize the more militant members, strengthen BA's management of its airline and BASSA are right now in the pathetic position of scrambling to defend the loss of staff travel and disciplinary procedures that only exist because of their poor leadership.
..and most amusingly, Mr. Walsh is now very much admired by the public.
One has to laugh or you cry.
There you go asking inconvenient questions
It is amazing that BASSA membership have had been given NO opportunity as of this date to vote on any of the proposals put forth by BA.
It makes the last statement in their recent missive bizarre in the extreme.
My personal view is that this strike has managed to weaken BASSA, marginalize the more militant members, strengthen BA's management of its airline and BASSA are right now in the pathetic position of scrambling to defend the loss of staff travel and disciplinary procedures that only exist because of their poor leadership.
..and most amusingly, Mr. Walsh is now very much admired by the public.
One has to laugh or you cry.
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Paddy:
I'm not ready to concede that BASSA is letting its members decide now.
We've all heard a lot rhetoric coming out of BASSA and Unite about this being about what Cabin Crew want, their concerns, their support, and not one offer has gone to the members.
They haven't even put the latest offer up for members to examine.
Lots has changed, but I'm not sure BASSA has
I'm not ready to concede that BASSA is letting its members decide now.
We've all heard a lot rhetoric coming out of BASSA and Unite about this being about what Cabin Crew want, their concerns, their support, and not one offer has gone to the members.
They haven't even put the latest offer up for members to examine.
Lots has changed, but I'm not sure BASSA has
"Fail to agree"
One simple I.R. technique that BA and bassa can use to get over the ST and Disciplinaries issues is simply to register a "failure to agree" with each other. Both parties then reserve the right to do whatever they decide to do at some later stage.
They could also go down the mediation/arbitration track on the Disciplinaries and ST.
BA must avoid these options like the plague.
Mediation and arbitration look for "middle ground". There is no middle ground. The only way that such a process might work is via "pendulum" arbitration, but Unite hate that.
As to the "fail to agree" solution, it leaves too much open. BA must insist on "total" closure of the isses, and not leave unresolved issues lying around. If they do not get total closure, the old BA weak managing style will soon be back in play.
One issue from the "seductive" world of negotiation will be the ploy of "When will you re-instate ST for staff?" - after 20 years of further good service? After 10 years of further good service?
BA must be very wary of going down that track. 20 years becomes 10, then 5, then 2, and then 12 months. ..................and BAs preferred weak management style will then be back in play....................
They could also go down the mediation/arbitration track on the Disciplinaries and ST.
BA must avoid these options like the plague.
Mediation and arbitration look for "middle ground". There is no middle ground. The only way that such a process might work is via "pendulum" arbitration, but Unite hate that.
As to the "fail to agree" solution, it leaves too much open. BA must insist on "total" closure of the isses, and not leave unresolved issues lying around. If they do not get total closure, the old BA weak managing style will soon be back in play.
One issue from the "seductive" world of negotiation will be the ploy of "When will you re-instate ST for staff?" - after 20 years of further good service? After 10 years of further good service?
BA must be very wary of going down that track. 20 years becomes 10, then 5, then 2, and then 12 months. ..................and BAs preferred weak management style will then be back in play....................
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I can't see BA agreeing to any sort of binding arbitration. Its simply doesn't serve their purposes.
Even a non-binding arbitration procedure will only serve a purpose if they decide to choose the nuclear option and dismiss all cabin crew and have them reapply for their position. It would show they participated in a good faith effort to obtain an acceptable settlement so that requirement gets met..but that's the only reason I can see BA sitting down at that table.
I'm relatively comfortable with BA's approach. Submit reasonable offers, stand by your words, and watch the other side disassemble.
Even a non-binding arbitration procedure will only serve a purpose if they decide to choose the nuclear option and dismiss all cabin crew and have them reapply for their position. It would show they participated in a good faith effort to obtain an acceptable settlement so that requirement gets met..but that's the only reason I can see BA sitting down at that table.
I'm relatively comfortable with BA's approach. Submit reasonable offers, stand by your words, and watch the other side disassemble.
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A portion of HiFlyer14's post on the restricted thread:
I believe that it is now time for the PCCC leaders to come forth, identify themselves, and take some control of the message to the media and to their fellow cabin crew.
While I understand, and agree, that their identities could not be revealed during the early stages of their development, at some point, if they are to be taken seriously as a potential alternative, they will have to step forth.
Therefore I would add to Beagle's eloquent message to BASSA:
Please note that by insisting on putting crew back on planes, you are bringing New Fleet upon us faster than necessary. You have secured little or nothing to protect us against New Fleet and you are causing us to lose money in the form of additional allowances being removed.
The Professional Cabin Crew Council believes that cabin crew don't want or need more crew back on planes. The money saved by not putting crew back on could then be negotiated to reinstate some of the following:
a. MTP at 2008/9 rates instead of current
b. The lost bonus and 3 year pay deal
c. The lost share option
And most importantly, it would possibly delay the start-up of New Fleet.
If you want security against New Fleet rather than an additional crew member back on a few select routes you need to email the Professional Cabin Crew Council now.
Please note that by insisting on putting crew back on planes, you are bringing New Fleet upon us faster than necessary. You have secured little or nothing to protect us against New Fleet and you are causing us to lose money in the form of additional allowances being removed.
The Professional Cabin Crew Council believes that cabin crew don't want or need more crew back on planes. The money saved by not putting crew back on could then be negotiated to reinstate some of the following:
a. MTP at 2008/9 rates instead of current
b. The lost bonus and 3 year pay deal
c. The lost share option
And most importantly, it would possibly delay the start-up of New Fleet.
If you want security against New Fleet rather than an additional crew member back on a few select routes you need to email the Professional Cabin Crew Council now.
While I understand, and agree, that their identities could not be revealed during the early stages of their development, at some point, if they are to be taken seriously as a potential alternative, they will have to step forth.
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PCCC
Diplome,
Given the amount of threats and general screaming by the militant faction, I would suggest that the identity and structure of PCCC is left until all the disciplinary actions have taken place, BASSA/Unite have agreed a closure with BA and, by that time all those that have lost their ST will have made a choice to leave or stay at BA.
This will achieve two things, first the simmering background hate level should be reduced to managable proportions. Secondly, this will allow time for setting into place the structure for PCCC, including specifically the security setup to ensure the integrity of the members database, fees collection system, bank accounts, etc.. Planning for facilities, reps, elections, etc..
Also by this time the ongoing position of BASSA with BA and Unite will be clearer. PCCC will have had the chance to develop a strategy and ongoing position plan and, probably some informal contact with BA - if only for representation on New Fleet!! - who knows.
But at this point in time I would suggest that if the sapling PCCC is exposed, the amount of destruction bought to bear would destroy it - remember you cannot fight a nebulous enemy that has no focus.
Given the amount of threats and general screaming by the militant faction, I would suggest that the identity and structure of PCCC is left until all the disciplinary actions have taken place, BASSA/Unite have agreed a closure with BA and, by that time all those that have lost their ST will have made a choice to leave or stay at BA.
This will achieve two things, first the simmering background hate level should be reduced to managable proportions. Secondly, this will allow time for setting into place the structure for PCCC, including specifically the security setup to ensure the integrity of the members database, fees collection system, bank accounts, etc.. Planning for facilities, reps, elections, etc..
Also by this time the ongoing position of BASSA with BA and Unite will be clearer. PCCC will have had the chance to develop a strategy and ongoing position plan and, probably some informal contact with BA - if only for representation on New Fleet!! - who knows.
But at this point in time I would suggest that if the sapling PCCC is exposed, the amount of destruction bought to bear would destroy it - remember you cannot fight a nebulous enemy that has no focus.
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I note the following from Unite’s latest communication...
Union members will be asked to vote and the recommendation to vote to accept or not from the union leaders is going to be governed on the disciplinary in progress.
50+, has that number gone up by the way?
Members are considered therefore to be voting on the guilt or not of those in the disciplinary process without the benefit of any knowledge whatsoever as to what they are accused of. You could well be voting to support someone who threatened to poison a pilot, threatened a fellow member of cabin crew or anything at all for that matter, you have no details at all on which to make this decision, not that you should be making such a choice at all anyway.
Very odd in my view.
Whether your union is able to recommend rejection or acceptance of this offer depends not only on these points being clarified, but also alongside these, there remain the two main issues of contention - which are staff travel and the fifty plus disciplinary cases related to the industrial action which remain unresolved.
Ultimately the decision is yours, but we need the facts to answer your questions honestly and fully. As has been stated many times, we cannot accept that people that participated in lawful and legal action are singled out and victimised. We trust that you would support the position.
Ultimately the decision is yours, but we need the facts to answer your questions honestly and fully. As has been stated many times, we cannot accept that people that participated in lawful and legal action are singled out and victimised. We trust that you would support the position.
50+, has that number gone up by the way?
Members are considered therefore to be voting on the guilt or not of those in the disciplinary process without the benefit of any knowledge whatsoever as to what they are accused of. You could well be voting to support someone who threatened to poison a pilot, threatened a fellow member of cabin crew or anything at all for that matter, you have no details at all on which to make this decision, not that you should be making such a choice at all anyway.
Very odd in my view.
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Snas:
I agree, it is odd.
Perhaps BASSA is being deliberately obtuse with its members because BASSA realizes that the membership, already rather battered, may not be inclined to go on strike to defend someone who's "victimization" was being called to account for threatening the safety of fellow cabin crew, developing porn filled websites, etc., etc..
I agree, it is odd.
Perhaps BASSA is being deliberately obtuse with its members because BASSA realizes that the membership, already rather battered, may not be inclined to go on strike to defend someone who's "victimization" was being called to account for threatening the safety of fellow cabin crew, developing porn filled websites, etc., etc..
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I note the following from Unite’s latest communication...
Union members will be asked to vote and the recommendation to vote to accept or not from the union leaders is going to be governed on the disciplinary in progress.
50+, has that number gone up by the way?
Members are considered therefore to be voting on the guilt or not of those in the disciplinary process without the benefit of any knowledge whatsoever as to what they are accused of. You could well be voting to support someone who threatened to poison a pilot, threatened a fellow member of cabin crew or anything at all for that matter, you have no details at all on which to make this decision, not that you should be making such a choice at all anyway.
Very odd in my view.
Union members will be asked to vote and the recommendation to vote to accept or not from the union leaders is going to be governed on the disciplinary in progress.
50+, has that number gone up by the way?
Members are considered therefore to be voting on the guilt or not of those in the disciplinary process without the benefit of any knowledge whatsoever as to what they are accused of. You could well be voting to support someone who threatened to poison a pilot, threatened a fellow member of cabin crew or anything at all for that matter, you have no details at all on which to make this decision, not that you should be making such a choice at all anyway.
Very odd in my view.
Your examples would not be considered such and are just put there to inflame the situation.
It's time this was put to bed and the only way is for both sides to act like grown ups and get it sorted. All the Macho bull, from both sets of 'supporters' just shows how difficult the whole thing is.
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Your examples would not be considered such and are just put there to inflame the situation.
Call100, I take your point, but alas I don't agree and certainly not with your suggestion that inflammation is my motivation, it really isn’t. Indeed I’m suggesting, possibly cack handed on my part, that to include 50+ disciplinary processes into a settlement without any idea whatsoever as to what they actually relate to is not reasonable and serves to make a settlement less likely.
BA isn’t going to release any details as to the nature of the allegations, as they rightly shouldn’t. My examples come from the communications from BASSA who detailed (in brief) a whole bunch of them, most of which I considered worthy of disciplinary action personally. My favourite was the cabin crew member that threatened (joked) to blow a slide. Do PAX get to make such jokes when on board, I don't think they do.
If these disciplinary matters are made part of the settlement then cabin crew are being asked to vote based on at least 50+ unknown points – yet Unite are seeking clarification on the points that relate to T’s&C’s – detail is important in some areas and not in others it would appear.
ST is different, staff know what they are voting on in that respect, they have the information to allow a decision to be made.
Those in the process can/will/should be represented by the reps, not by popular vote, thats the bit I find odd.
The ST issue is rather specific to Aviation. However, on the Disciplinaries, I cannot think of a single decent senior manager in the UK who would include them in any IR/ER negotiation.
To include them would probably be unlawful anyway, but that aside, the real issue is that to duck the disciplinaries would be a return to the old, soft, useless, and in the end deceitful BA CC management.
BA CC managers must be honest and carry through what they say they are going to do. To allow CC to avoid B & H charges as a result of a "negotiation" would be entirely dishonest.
Unite hate these Disciplinaries being included, - they are only there because bassa wants them to be there. As has been said before - Completely daft.
To include them would probably be unlawful anyway, but that aside, the real issue is that to duck the disciplinaries would be a return to the old, soft, useless, and in the end deceitful BA CC management.
BA CC managers must be honest and carry through what they say they are going to do. To allow CC to avoid B & H charges as a result of a "negotiation" would be entirely dishonest.
Unite hate these Disciplinaries being included, - they are only there because bassa wants them to be there. As has been said before - Completely daft.