Safety briefs regs and checks. Who benefits and why?

[lowcostdolly]

Morning all

Just recently when flying as crew I have been constantly questioned by the SLF re our safety regs and why they need to be obeyed. Some have been genuinely interested, some frustrated for various reasons and a few just downright rude and difficult.

Ever heard the line "the cabin crew are here to ensure your safety"? It's true.....that is our primary function on board. Once we have done this then we provide you with an onboard service. We are not employed as "trolley Dolly's" or any of the other cliches around We are highly trained professionals who at any time could be called upon to fire fight, resucitate someone, deliver a baby, manage a decompression situation in flight or evacuate a plane on the ground.

The CAA/DfT lay down certain mandatory regulations/procedures which a carrier is required to comply with to ensure their operators certificate. Some have to be followed to the letter some there is a certain amount of scope for the carrier to intepret. For instance you may have seen different variations of the flight deck door procedure on different airlines.

Some of these procedures which the CC carry out on behalf of the carrier who employs them can seem petty, demeaning and frustrating to the SLF most of whom do not know the reasons behind them and question rushed CC in flight. The CC may not have the time or would it be appropriate in some cases to give real reasons at that point. I just thourght it might help to post answers to the more common questions here.

1) I fly all the time so why do I need to watch/listen to the safety demo?
For exactly that reason. Familiarity breeds contempt and procedures can change since you last flew. Also ever noticed those around you who think an emergency could never happen to them? These are the ones who read, chat or sleep their way through the demo so won't have a clue where the exits are We do this demo for the benefit of all SLF. We spend 4 weeks learning how and where to leave that plane....you have aprox 4 minutes to digest that info on taxi. It could save you life one day.

2) Why do I need to show my boarding pass again? Answered fully in another thread

3) Toddler son/daughter doesn't like sitting on their own. Can I have a belt so they can sit on my lap for take off/landing?
No they can't. It's a CAA reg that any child over 2 years has their own seat. The reason for this is that a child over two is considered too big to be adequately protected by the mother by the infant brace position and worse still it could cause injury to the child. This applies even if the infant is small or aged 2 years and 1 day. We have to have a standard. I'm a parent myself so do empathise on this one but I have to enforce it

4) Toddler son/daughter won't have his/her seatbelt done up what should I do?
Be a parent and take charge!!! When we land we will travel at approx 150 MPH down the runway. In a car would you let them dictate whether they sit restrained in their car seat?

5) Why can I not use the loo's just because the seatbelt sign is on?
The seatbelt is on for a reason which may not be immediatly apparent to you or even the CC . This is an instruction from the Capt which must be obeyed. There are no seatbelts in the loo so you re at risk of injury if you disregard this. Ask the CC if you can use the loo and you will be advised not too. If you sustain injury in this event don't bother trying to claim!!

6) Why does my Ipod need to be switched off for take off/landing?
So you can hear us peeps!! Take off and landing are classed as critical stages of flight and most incidents happen during this time. I usually have to touch the arm of the SLF I'm trying to communicate this instruction to. Enough said??

7)The sun is in my eyes why can I not close my window blind? "Stupid regulation".
No it's not. Lots of reasons for this but the most important is situational awareness in the cabin. Who remembers Kegworth where important lessons were learned and are now enforced? The flight deck have sophisticated warning systems but no wing mirrors.....they cannot see the wings or the engines. CC and the SLF can if the window blinds are open....do I need to explain more?

8) " If I want my bags by my feet why do you have a problem with this?"
It could impede your exit on evacuation and if you are in an aisle seat everyone else's as well If you are at the emergency exits and do this you will be told to move. Stow your bags appropiately for take off and landing peeps

9) Why can I not put my duty free bottles in the lockers??
Loads of reasons. Could fall out injuring somebody if it's a heavy bottle
Could leak over somebody. As CC if it leaks this is a major potential
problem.....fire!!!! Alchohol is flammable and could leak over the electrics.

The above is all what I have been challenged to justify over my past few flights so I'm not being patronising. Hope it helps with the queries and for accepting any instructions given on board.

[strake]

We are highly trained professionals who at any time could be called upon to fire fight, resucitate someone, deliver a baby, manage a decompression situation in flight or evacuate a plane on the ground.

Phew, all that from a three or four week training course. I'm surprised the rest of us bother to do five years medical study or go to university for at least three years to get a degree or take four years to become pilots etc etc..
The majority of frequent air travellers appreciate the work that all staff in airlines provide but I think you need to be a little more circumspect.
Whilst safety is important, so is service. You might be led to believe from your trainers that you are "safety staff" first but show me one advert from any airline, over any time period, which shows cabin crew doing anything other than being handsome/pretty whilst providing some form of service.
If you really want to change the way Cabin Crew are viewed, start with your management, not us.

[VS-LHRCSA]

It would be very difficult to show the safety side of the cabin crew position in an ad without potentially scaring many passengers. Perhaps that is why you won't see a commercial of showing an evacuation, or a crew doing CPR, or restraining a passenger having an overdose, or breaking up a couple who are fighting, etc. No-one is going to fly with an airline that confronts it's public with the realities in such a way, even though all airlines deal with the same issues regularly.

Probably the closest I have seen was a BA ad from around 1999 where a group of school children were playing musical chairs. Each child depicted had a caption of their future career. One boy missed out and started having a tantrum. A girl stood up and let him have her seat. Her cabin was something like 'future BA cabin crew member'.

Personally, I hated the ad because I saw it as rewarding bad behavior but I did show something beyond ordinary cabin service, ie: putting yourself out for the benefit of others.

[jetset lady]

Sorry, lowcostdolly. I appreciate what you are trying to say and agree with you in most parts. However, a few points....

Originally Posted by lowcostdolly

We are not employed as "trolley Dolly's" or any of the other cliches around

Erm...You might want to change your user name if you want people to take that point seriously!

Originally Posted by lowcostdolly

1) I fly all the time so why do I need to watch/listen to the safety demo?
For exactly that reason. Familiarity breeds contempt and procedures can change since you last flew. Also ever noticed those around you who think an emergency could never happen to them? These are the ones who read, chat or sleep their way through the demo so won't have a clue where the exits are We do this demo for the benefit of all SLF. We spend 4 weeks learning how and where to leave that plane....you have aprox 4 minutes to digest that info on taxi. It could save you life one day.

With all respect, I don't think passengers will swallow that we spend an entire 4 weeks training on exits/evacuation alone.

Originally Posted by lowcostdolly

7)The sun is in my eyes why can I not close my window blind? "Stupid regulation".
No it's not. Lots of reasons for this but the most important is situational awareness in the cabin. Who remembers Kegworth where important lessons were learned and are now enforced? The flight deck have sophisticated warning systems but no wing mirrors.....they cannot see the wings or the engines. CC and the SLF can if the window blinds are open....do I need to explain more?

As you say, important lessons were learnt from Kegworth and new advisories did come into play. But this isn't a CAA enforcement, apart from at the emergency exits. Some airlines do not insist on all window blinds being open. Yes, it's certainly good practice, but it's down to the particular airline. And passengers that have used a variety of airlines will know this and come straight back at you. Better to say that, "It is our airlines policy....", and then go into your situational awareness bit if you feel you need to.

Originally Posted by lowcostdolly

9) Why can I not put my duty free bottles in the lockers??
Loads of reasons. Could fall out injuring somebody if it's a heavy bottle
Could leak over somebody. As CC if it leaks this is a major potential
problem.....fire!!!! Alchohol is flammable and could leak over the electrics.

Again, this is airline specific. Anything could fall out and injure someone. Plastic bottles of water/juice/milk etc. could leak. As for alcohol being flammable and starting a fire in a overhead locker, is this actually a likely scenario? Not being an electrician or engineer, I'd be interested to know if anyone has the answer, as it's not something I've ever heard of. I have worked for one airline that didn't allow duty free in the overhead lockers, but that was due to the fact that, in the case of a fire, heat rises, so better to have the most flammable liquids down as low as possible. There was nothing about them actually starting a fire.

I'm not trying to pull your post apart. As I said, I agree with a lot of what you say, but there are a lot of passengers out there that fly with many different airlines and that do have some knowledge. There are also a fair few that will be looking to catch you out. If you are going to put a list like this up, you need to be damned sure that what you write is fact.

Finally, you say that you don't mean to be patronising. Unfortunately, in the context of your post, smilies such as and , come across as just that. But maybe that's just me!

Jsl

[Malone]

Strake,
Yet another condescending reply to a perfectly reasonable post by lcd.
We all know that CC are there for our safety and that this is their prime function. This is fairly self-evident to anyone with an ounce of intelligence!
With regards to service, that is a different matter. If you think about it, the best people at this job can make it appear as if they are putting service first but are actually doing both!
I do know what you mean, some individuals do see the "safety" issue as a reason to act officiously. This happens on check-in as well, I had certain colleagues who fitted that bill!!
lcd, keep up the good work!!

[VS-LHRCSA]

I flew with an airline that banned bottles in the overhead lockers, if anyone remembers Air 2000. They were pretty thorough when it came to SEP. I think it was something to do with findings from a crash investigation - possibly the Korean Airlines crash in Guam but don't quote me. Anyway, I remember it being a pain, especially with people sitting at the overwing exits where you couldn't stow anything on the floor or bottles in the overheads.

[lowcostdolly]

Strake Hi

I do have a degree actually and it took me four years to achieve it. Also I still not only practice in that field but it comes in very useful on a plane sometimes!

Jsl . Point taken on the username......chosen months ago and posts/views change . The smilies are just my way of trying to lighten a post......again no offence intended and the facility is provided by pprune.

I am sure of my facts on this post. Firstly your very valid point re alchohol in the lockers starting a fire. I've not heard of this happening either but I'm sure you will agree the potential is there. Most of our procedures as CC are based on "unlikely events" and as you corectly point out some of the rationale's are airline specific. You come across as CC? Anything that leaks onto electrics has the potential to start a fire......I just used alchohol as the example. People generally don't purchase milk in duty free

Re window blinds. I would say that if this procedure is not applied that is airline specific. I have worked for 4 airlines post Kegworth and all implement this recommendation. However I could stand corrected on this. maybe they were the only 4 who do?

I just wanted to answer a few FAQ's by the SLF on this thread......nothing more

[Jarvy]

Well put lcd. As a regular flyer I am still amazed how a lot of SLF think the rules don't apply to them or that they know it all.
On sunday flying back from Orlando I told the two people in front of me that their seats should be in the upright posistion for taxiing and take off. It was made worst by the fact that the third person in the row worked for the airline and didn't say anything to them.
I couldn't care less about their comfort but in the event of an emergency the seat would have impeded my escape.
I suppose being 6' 1" and 240 lbs helps in puting my point across.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Duty free alcohol cannot even sustain a fire, let alone "start" one. It isn't strong enough. Alcohol is NOT flammable unless it is 100deg proof or over, that being more or less the definition of "proof". Duty free/airport sales is never over 75-80%.

Surely you don't think the industry would allow, let alone promote the sale and carriage of flammable liquids in the cabin?

"liquids leaking into the electrics..."??? Oh purleeese!
I think you'll find aircraft designers considered that possibility a long, long time ago and designed it out...(about the same time it was realised that aircraft might occasionally be exposed to rain)

As to why a duty free bottles not allowed in the overhead locker in case they fall on someone - I've never heard such tosh. What about the cases in the locker that weigh twenty times as much? Aren't they a 20 X greater hazard?
What airline bans this? I've never heard of it!

If we're going to ask people to conform to rules it behoves us to ensure they're sensible ones and based in fact and reality, or we run the risk of discrediting them before we've even started.

Even so, pax need to understand that CC are there for three reasons, and three reasons only. they are;
Safety
Safety,
and Safety.
(And bringing the pilots their tea, which is the same thing.)

Any other function carried out when not engaged in Safety is purely an ancilliary job, and is entirely optional at the Captain's, or the Purser's discretion.

Put up with it, and behave like an adult when asked to do something by your Safety Professionals.

[jetset lady]

lcd,

As said, I do agree with most of what you say and good on you for saying it, but I am trying to look at it from the perspective of passengers that may be looking to pick holes in your arguments. Once that happens, you've lost them on everything.

With regards to the window blinds, I can assure you that this is definitely airline specific and not a CAA reg. I am crew and work for a large UK airline, one that many frequent fliers will have probably have travelled on at some point. We do not request that blinds be open during take off and landing, unless sat by the emergency exits. Personally, I prefer your way, but rules is rules!

As for the alcohol side of things, I must have misunderstood you. I thought you were stating that no duty free should be put in the lockers, in particular, because alcohol is flammable. That was also my understanding at my previous airline although, as already stated, not due to the risk of leakage. Again, as previously said, I have no idea whether it could start a fire by leaking onto electrics from the hatracks, which is why I asked if an engineer or electrician knew the answer. You are, however, completely correct in that not many people buy milk airside, but many do carry baby milk, juices, fizzy drinks, water etc in hand luggage.

As an aside, Agaricus b, duty free alcohol isn't flammable? How's that work then? I've used brandy, bought in duty free, for cooking and managed to get a flame off it. It may not last long, but that's one little bit of brandy. Imagine loads of bottles of it, in the top half of the aircraft, where the heat will be at it's fiercest in the event of a fire. Are you actually telling me that the alcohol won't burn and elevate the situation, as that goes directly against every bit of training I've had on fire situations, regardless of where the bottles are. I'm not saying you're wrong, but it's a new one on me and something I shall look into further.

Originally Posted by Agaricus bisporus

Surely you don't think the industry would allow, let alone promote the sale and carriage of flammable liquids in the cabin?

Actually, call me cynical, but considering the money it makes on them, then yep, I do think they'll allow it. After all, the bottles are made of glass and that's a threat in itself. Probably a higher threat, these days, than the contents.

Anyway, where was I? Oh yes! I'm not against you, lcd. We're on the same side and Christ knows, we need all the help we can get! But do you see where I'm coming from?

Jsl

P.S. That was just a friendly suggestion on the smiley thing. I'm a firm believer in using them to lighten the tone of a post. But others can take them the wrong way. However, that could be me seeing things that don't exist. My car seizing itself into a state of complete immobility on the way to work this morning has probably left me a little...erm...tense!

[Final 3 Greens]

Hi Cart Tart, feedback from your friendly SLF


1) I fly all the time so why do I need to watch/listen to the safety demo?
See Ebbinghaus and memory decay. I take 100 sectors per year and listen to every brief, one encounters subfleets with different kit etc. However, the brief is crap and omits such important info as the O2 will smell 'hot' and the bag may not inflate when you are using it. Poor stuff IMHO.

2) Why do I need to show my boarding pass again? Answered fully in another thread. You don't on many airlines, including one which is much bigger than any UK airline.

3) Toddler son/daughter doesn't like sitting on their own. Can I have a belt so they can sit on my lap for take off/landing?
No comment

4) Toddler son/daughter won't have his/her seatbelt done up what should I do?
Be a parent and take charge!!! When we land we will travel at approx 150 MPH down the runway. In a car would you let them dictate whether they sit restrained in their car seat? on a train doing 180-200 mph (Eurostar), there are no seatbelts, so the logic behind this one is dodgy, but airlines must comply with the law, end of (IMHO trains need seat belts)

5) Why can I not use the loo's just because the seatbelt sign is on?
The seatbelt is on for a reason which may not be immediatly apparent to you or even the CC . This is an instruction from the Capt which must be obeyed. There are no seatbelts in the loo so you re at risk of injury if you disregard this. Ask the CC if you can use the loo and you will be advised not too. If you sustain injury in this event don't bother trying to claim!! If the CC don;t know why the belt sign is on after a reasonable short period, then there is a comms problem. Sadly, some if us who travel regularly have heard CC asking the tech guys to put the belt sign on to help with the service and sometimes US airlines keep the sign on for hours (literally) when it seems very smooth?????????

6) Why does my Ipod need to be switched off for take off/landing?
So you can hear us peeps!! Take off and landing are classed as critical stages of flight and most incidents happen during this time. I usually have to touch the arm of the SLF I'm trying to communicate this instruction to. Enough said?? No, the iPod may interfere with aircraft systems, so it needs to be off for that reason too

7)The sun is in my eyes why can I not close my window blind? "Stupid regulation".
There is no regulation against holding a newspaper or similar object across the sunny window.

8) " If I want my bags by my feet why do you have a problem with this?"
So long as it is under the seat in front (non exit rows), why do you have a problem with that?

9) Why can I not put my duty free bottles in the lockers?? I always put my booze in the overhead locker and have done for 33 years - that must be thousands of flights, nobody has ever said it shouldn;t go there, please will you quote a reference for this assertion?
Loads of reasons. Could fall out injuring somebody if it's a heavy bottle
Could leak over somebody. As CC if it leaks this is a major potential
problem.....fire!!!! Alchohol is flammable and could leak over the electrics. So can Alcohol

I form the impression that you may be new to the job and wish you an enjoyable career.

[profot]

four years is way too long for a pilot to train, i wouldn't want to fly with one that took any more than 2 years personally

Experience, well thats another thing, four years would be a minimum

[west lakes]

With the occasional, and I stress occasional, customer who decided that they do not need to comply with various regulations (in another industry BTW) and feel that all the rules should be broken just for their individual benefit, I usually use the following: -
As a company we have no choice but to operate within the laws and regulations that govern us. Is it not fair to expect customers to do the same?
If you don't agree with them, please feel free to take the matter up with the relevent government organisations.

Yes, within the above we will all do the best for the customer, but there are limits over which other customers will suffer just for the benefit of one!
But in this dog eat dog world, what does one customer care about others or the effect their demands have on employees and companies?

[sea oxen]

Wow, everyone has fisked this, so may I have a go?

(1) I fly all the time so why do I need to watch/listen to the safety demo?

Depends. If you have boarded an aircraft which is has been refuelled enroute to SYD from LHR and you are occupying the same seat, you'll already have seen the briefing (which, if you're on BA, will be toe-curlingly condescending in its dumbing-down - worth it just for that). It's good manners, though, to gaze at the hosties as they go through the motions.

They don't tell you how to count how many rows are ahead and behind of you. If there's smoke, do you have water and something with which to improvise a smoke mask? How will you get past that obese person behind you if she spills in the aisle? Do you have a torch? How do those doors open, anyway? It may be worth reading the card.

Sentient people will work this out for themselves when boarding, The safety briefing equates to tractor production statistics. Fine by me, as I know that the vast majority of my fellow travellers will (a) have taken no notice; and (b) will have forgotten, or not understood, everything that they've been told.

(6) Why does my Ipod need to be switched off for take off/landing?
So you can hear us peeps!!
Argh - 'peeps'!
Sry d00d i got earpluz in no law gainst tha isit.
People with iPods with cheap ear buds which force me to listen to their drivel should have have their eardrums slowly reamed in perpetuity.

F3G covered off the rest.

Having said all that, strake makes a good point. You could be the lousiest CC in the Universe and we're always more likely to die on the taxi ride to the airport. Primarily, we have the horn-rimmed glasses engineers, then the pilots, then the people who keep the birds running making this industry so safe, by and large. We have seen in the past heroic efforts by CC to safeguard their passengers, and these are rightly lauded.

In the grand scheme of things, though, being aboard an aircraft is probably the least scary thing I've done this week.

SO

SO

[Rusland 17]

Originally Posted by lowcostdolly

I just wanted to answer a few FAQ's by the SLF on this thread......nothing more

I'm sure your intentions are good, and most of what you write is quite sensible, but you undermine yourself by repeatedly referring to your passengers as "self-loading freight". Even if it's a term cabin crew use between themselves, it is not a good idea to use it when talking to passengers, as you are here. It is offensive, and I know of no other business that would address its customers in such a way.

[lowcostdolly]

Rusland thank you for the feedback but with all due respect it was not me who named this forum. Maybe you should contact one of the Mods re your views?

How people view nicknames/use of smilies etc is very personal to them. I wouldn't imagine for one minute anyone involved in the naming of this forum at PPrune wants to cause offence and niether do I so apologies on my behalf if I have done so. Also you will hear passengers on this forum refer to themselves as the SLF so not everyone minds this term.

Actually in the 21 years I have been around aviation I had never heard this term until I joined PPrune this year. I think it's just meant tongue in cheek....nothing more. Thats certainly how I mean it

P.S I don't know it was PPrune who named this forum. I'm just guessing but I'm sure a mod will know

[Wannabe Flyer]

7)The sun is in my eyes why can I not close my window blind? "Stupid regulation".
No it's not. Lots of reasons for this but the most important is situational awareness in the cabin. Who remembers Kegworth where important lessons were learned and are now enforced? The flight deck have sophisticated warning systems but no wing mirrors.....they cannot see the wings or the engines. CC and the SLF can if the window blinds are open....do I need to explain more?

Oops. Most CC i have asked told me that if the plane goes down (cabin largely intact) it is easier for the people outside to look in and not waste time in a rescue effort chasing after an empty seat/gauge the fire etc, which is why we have to keep windows open during landing and take of where the cabin stays largely intact incase of a .

As a SLF find that more plausible than your explanation simply because your suggestion indicates there should be no shades on the window at all as situational awareness is required in the entire duration of the flight and not only during certain times. I am assuming in cruise flight they are guessing there will be not much left of the cabin anyways in the case of an unfortunate incident so there is no point keeping them open then! But then again I am sure in the 4 weeks of training they would have given you a detailed explanation with re buttle viz a vis an SLF with 2 million miles and a curious mind!

Which brings me to another question???? Why dont aircraft have those beautiful chrome side view mirrors on each side of the cockpit. Oooohhhhh I know I know, cause they cause drag and cause the new ones have cameras all over with live images in the cockpit!!!!!!!!!

Shut that window!!!!!!! I need my sunglasses at night

[TightSlot]

SLF is a phrase that goes back to PPRuNe's origins. The forums were originally started as a bulletin board for Flight Crew only. A gradual expansion occurred during which this forum was started. SLF was (at that time) a phrase in occasional use by Pilots, particularly those previously flying freight - hence the forum title. I have never heard the phrase used by Cabin Crew, except within the confines of PPRuNe, where it tends to be used for simplicity, as a common term of reference. Truth be told, I've rarely heard the term used by Pilots either, outside of here. The phrase was never intended to be abusive, and I'd have to say that if you find it to be so, your skin is rather thin. The phrase is a form of jargon, much as is some of the language and phraseology used between medical staff - a certain kind of black humour that does not translate well to the uninitiated. I'm sure that some of you will choose to take offence - quite possibly the same people that appear to loathe flying, airlines and their staff in all forms. It is a genuine mystery why those who feel this way should regularly post here, or why, for example (there are others) a simple request for a cardboard boarding card at the door can spin out to multiple pages of vitriol. Still, I suppose that as long as you're polite to each other, such threads can roll on.

Window Shade Blinds (again) - At the risk of banging an old drum, there is a link to the multiple previous discussions on this subject in the forum FAQ. This might possibly be a good place to start.

[Wannabe Flyer]

I for one love the term SLF. I am one and think it is brilliant.

[Shack37]

Duty free alcohol cannot even sustain a fire, let alone "start" one. It isn't strong enough. Alcohol is NOT flammable unless it is 100deg proof or over, that being more or less the definition of "proof". Duty free/airport sales is never over 75-80%.

How do you flame your Xmas pud then?