Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

Is Ukraine about to have a war?

Wikiposts
Search
Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

Is Ukraine about to have a war?

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 19th Oct 2022, 09:51
  #10721 (permalink)  
fdr
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: 3rd Rock, #29B
Posts: 2,956
Received 861 Likes on 257 Posts
Originally Posted by ORAC
Superb piece by someone who knows KGB/FSB officers really well — and from there extrapolates convincingly about what will and what won’t deter Putin from going nuclear.
https://www.justsecurity.org/83605/a...r-that-he-was/
Addressing Putin’s Nuclear Threat: Thinking Like the Cold War KGB Officer That He Was
There is an adult in the house apparently. London's comments are consistent with the general media releases from the governments supporting Ukraines struggle against the criminal action of Putin. The most certain means to achieve a catastrophic outcome is to show indecision in the extent and certainty of destruction of all Russian forces within Ukraine should Putin elect to escalate. No matter what the purported justification is for an escalation, the least risk arises from a guarantee of response, which takes us back to the start of this saga, on 23 February 2022, our leaders did not show the resolve that was later shown in respect of the UK's guarantee of protection of Finland and Sweden during the period of their NATO membership processing. Had that been done for Ukraine, the 24 Feb would have come and gone without further incident beyond a hissy fit from the Kremlin. We got what we got, but the consequences of a repeat of vanilla responses is seen on what Vlad did on 24 February.

The insanity of NBC is that there is no scenario that exists that it ends in a win for any side that initiates such an escalation. We have come perilously close on 2 occasions to ending life on this planet by our own hand, and right now, failing to show the resolve to remove Vlad's SS troopers from Ukraine by conventional force backed up by the ability to escalate further is a least risk location for our bomb of a situation.


fdr is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2022, 10:24
  #10722 (permalink)  
fdr
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: 3rd Rock, #29B
Posts: 2,956
Received 861 Likes on 257 Posts
Originally Posted by Usertim
Whilst dropping the dam is just the kind of insane action that might be attractive to the russians ( and they have history from WW2 of blowing Dnipr dams) , if you look at a topography map the left bank of the Dnipr is on average considerably lower elevation than the right. The flooding would be much worse south of the river as FDR alluded. The Khakova dam is perhaps currently holding back more water (18 cubic km) than the Hoover dam ( nominally 32 cubic km when Lake Mead is full, which it certainly is not in recent years).
Depressingly this makes the alternative reasons for urging evacuation of Kherson city more believable.
Or they can go full crazy mode and nuke the dam for a doubly powerful statement.
The maximum fall at the dam is 14 meters. There is a fair volume behind the wall certainly, however the terrain is as below. If Vlad was sitting on the high ground, then that would be a plan, it is a fantastic way to drown his own troops, shades of the little tank (Zed car T-72 B3) hiding in the pond as the tractors pass by. The entrained debris would put paid to the canal with a reasonable expectation of a great success for Ukraine by Vlad Putinating his own infrastructure. Since the destruction of the easternmost bridges into Crimea long time back, the road to Crimea is by way of the lowlands east of Kherson. Flooding that immediately before winter is going to definitely be taking it's place in the military strategy manuals.







Originally Posted by jolihokistix
@Usertim. Irradiate the Crimean water supply, then?
Or Pootan’s Bluff?
Hard sell back to the home crowd on that. Putin generally doesn't care, but the people that are currently around him that can take him out may care a bit more, if Putin loses public support, he goes from shark to baby seal in a 1.95 seconds. ( 6 story drop, Vo=0, g=9.81 m/sec...)
Crimea has a special place in the Russian psyche, which is odd, as it really has little to do with them, but they apparently like the sandy beaches. Would have thought Sochi did that too.


Originally Posted by Usertim
Well that is another sensible reason not to blow the dam, there would be no head of water for the canal. I doubt radiation would be an issue though after all that water washed through .
I think the canal is overstated in its importance, it is largely economic - 80% of the water was used for irrigation or industry. Russia may not care about that anymore. According to wiki (!) the area under cultivation in crimea declined by 90% between 2014 and 2017 ( those figures seem very high for such a short period though).
The debris will take out the canal all by itself. It is on the low side of the water course, 14m is not as much as it would be with a gravity dam, but there is a fair old volume to be dumped, and it will make a mess on the low side. Which is Putin-side.

Kind of neat, get named as a terrorist state and take out your own reason for any public support, which is the only thing between the circling sharks and Putin becoming a pavement pizza beside Lenin's tomb.

fdr is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2022, 10:31
  #10723 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 33,037
Received 2,911 Likes on 1,247 Posts
As for Kherson, it still beggars belief that Ukraine never took the bridge out early in the war when the town was initially threatened.

The Ukrainian guide to taking down a drone with a personal weapon.

NutLoose is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2022, 11:00
  #10724 (permalink)  
fdr
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: 3rd Rock, #29B
Posts: 2,956
Received 861 Likes on 257 Posts
Originally Posted by NutLoose
As for Kherson, it still beggars belief that Ukraine never took the bridge out early in the war when the town was initially threatened.

The Ukrainian guide to taking down a drone with a personal weapon.

https://twitter.com/WarMonitors/stat...12771125383168
well that's a waste of ammo...

here are representative ballistics for a 20 degree elevation for .223 55gr and 7.62x39... The Ukrainians guidance guarantees a miss.

If they don't have tracer, they are mainly wasting ammo. A high deflection shot against a small target like that, is like clay pigeon shooting with a .22 instead of 12 Gauge. Heck, Ukraine could get some good ol' boys out of 'bama to go plinking if they give free ammo, and beer. Not many roadsigns survive first encounter with the boys with the "roll tide" crimson T shirt, a Ram 1500, and an AR-15. Seriously, get the economy pack magazines, tracer and enough beer n' guns, n' more beer, and set the guys out along the expected approach paths... get rid of the deflection hassles with a skirmish line of beer cans n' ammo. the boys'll need a hunting' license... when is drone season?





fdr is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2022, 11:17
  #10725 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Frensham
Posts: 846
Received 90 Likes on 48 Posts
The "evacuation" of civilians from Kherson has begun.

Wokkafans is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2022, 12:59
  #10726 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 17,430
Received 1,594 Likes on 731 Posts
Martial law introduced in Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson and Zaporozhye regions

The Decree on the introduction of martial law in the new territories. It will be in effect from midnight - RIA

What does this mean?

You can read about it below, it includes the suspension of activities of political parties and other public and religious associations that "undermine defense and security"



ORAC is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2022, 13:02
  #10727 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,075
Received 66 Likes on 40 Posts
Can they now legally deploy conscripts to their "martial law zone" or do they still need to declare a legal "state of war"?
Less Hair is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2022, 13:03
  #10728 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Bucharest
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by fdr
The result of blowing the dam wall is to achieve the label of international terrorists, and to deprive Ukraine of another power supply, and to give a reasonable justification for Ukraine to shut down the water access for Crimea. That hasn't been done as yet, as Ukraine is not a terrorist state, the only one doing that sort of extortion is Russia.
The water supply was cut after Russia annexed Crimea in 2014. It was restored this year, after the invasion, when Russia destroyed the dam that was blocking the North Crimean Canal.

Originally Posted by Usertim
According to wiki (!) the area under cultivation in crimea declined by 90% between 2014 and 2017 ( those figures seem very high for such a short period though).
Since most of the water used for irrigation came through that canal, it's not that surprising.

Originally Posted by fdr
The debris will take out the canal all by itself. It is on the low side of the water course, 14m is not as much as it would be with a gravity dam, but there is a fair old volume to be dumped, and it will make a mess on the low side. Which is Putin-side.
The canal is upstream from the Kakhovka dam, and it's drawing water from the reservoir behind the dam, so there shoudn't be any debris hitting it. But, with a drained reservoir, the water level will probably no longer be high enough to be able to supply the canal.

Originally Posted by NutLoose
As for Kherson, it still beggars belief that Ukraine never took the bridge out early in the war when the town was initially threatened.
Treason was suspected as one of the reasons Kherson was lost so fast:

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/202...ike-a-good-bet
MikeSnow is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2022, 13:06
  #10729 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 181
Received 16 Likes on 7 Posts
Originally Posted by ChrisJ800
To counter the drones with 40kg non armour piercin warheads that use GPS i propose chicken wire fencing around energy infrastrucure targets. When i drove around GCHQ in Cheltenham i am sure my car GPS was not working there so gps and glonass can be jammed.. This seems more cost effective than using high tech and expensive ordinance to take them out?
It does indeed appear that the drones rely on GPS. See Professor Michael Clark on Sky News:
High power area GPS jammers could protect infrastructure and residential areas; operation would need to be timed so as to avoid degrading Ukrainian defence usage of GPS. Portable sets sound feasible, as a last line of defence.
John Marsh is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2022, 13:16
  #10730 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 17,430
Received 1,594 Likes on 731 Posts
JUST IN: Norway's prime minister calls press conference later today on the recent drone activity in the country.
ORAC is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2022, 13:42
  #10731 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 17,430
Received 1,594 Likes on 731 Posts
Further to the above - Sweden & Finland are, no doubt, also now investigating…

Norwegian journalists drew attention to the fact that the Russian Orthodox Church is buying up buildings in Norway overlooking the country's military bases, reports Dagbladet.

ORAC is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2022, 13:42
  #10732 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Bucharest
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Usertim
Whilst dropping the dam is just the kind of insane action that might be attractive to the russians ( and they have history from WW2 of blowing Dnipr dams) , if you look at a topography map the left bank of the Dnipr is on average considerably lower elevation than the right. The flooding would be much worse south of the river as FDR alluded. The Khakova dam is perhaps currently holding back more water (18 cubic km) than the Hoover dam ( nominally 32 cubic km when Lake Mead is full, which it certainly is not in recent years).

Depressingly this makes the alternative reasons for urging evacuation of Kherson city more believable.
Or they can go full crazy mode and nuke the dam for a doubly powerful statement.
Another reason not do it is that the ZNPP uses water from the Kakhovka reservoir. The ZNPP might not be able to function anymore if the water level drops too much.
MikeSnow is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2022, 14:00
  #10733 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 33,037
Received 2,911 Likes on 1,247 Posts
Signs that the IRIS-T system delivered, is up and working. Not good though as it narrows down the systems location

NutLoose is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2022, 15:12
  #10734 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: London
Posts: 1,578
Received 18 Likes on 10 Posts
Another anti-drone weapon system brain phart - podded unit comprising a gimbal mounted LMG/minigun with EO unit, MMW sensor mounted below, automated or with man-in-loop, the whole unit suspended below a barrage balloon at say 1000'. Array of balloons with interlocking fields of fire. The last line of defence could be additionally fitted with a couple of Martlets as a final last-ditch means of engaging the drone.
dead_pan is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2022, 15:15
  #10735 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Central UK
Posts: 1,636
Received 136 Likes on 65 Posts
Why blow the dam - a monumental task - when you can just open the 28 vast sluice-gates that retain the water? That would probably be more effective than blowing it, unless he plans to vapourise it with all the colateral damagenvolved to the appreciably Russian sympathysing population nearby. But he wouldn't survive nucing there, Russia would be incensed at doing that on 'home soil'.
Destruction would deny Putain the use of the bridge and rail line they need for supplies and maybe evacuation.
Flooding would only do much damage on the Russian side of the river and might even compromise the road to the Antonivskiy Bridge.
The canal isn't part of the picture, it is dry in many places and clearly has little flow of water.
He's not worried about denying Ukraine access to the Russian-side lowland in pursuit of his fleeing armies and he'd blow the Antonivskiy bridge behind an evacuation in any case.
Does he want the river fordable upstream perhaps for some future broad front assault with massed hordes of T55s? But again why destroy the dam rather than just open the gates?
I don't see how Russia gains anything from this apart from wrecking a major part of Ukraine's infrastructure which would be a significant handicap and own-goal to a winning Russia. Can they really be thinking of a major withdrawal from the entire region leaving a scorched-earth devastation behind them? That too hardly seems likely.
meleagertoo is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2022, 17:35
  #10736 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 33,037
Received 2,911 Likes on 1,247 Posts
Probably to stop the Ukrainians closing them again.

it looks like the barge bridge that was being built but then removed has been built again and completed, I wonder if they are leaving it standing to. Let them evacuate..

NutLoose is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2022, 17:59
  #10737 (permalink)  
fdr
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: 3rd Rock, #29B
Posts: 2,956
Received 861 Likes on 257 Posts
Originally Posted by meleagertoo
Why blow the dam - a monumental task - when you can just open the 28 vast sluice-gates that retain the water? That would probably be more effective than blowing it, unless he plans to vapourise it with all the colateral damagenvolved to the appreciably Russian sympathysing population nearby. But he wouldn't survive nucing there, Russia would be incensed at doing that on 'home soil'.
Destruction would deny Putain the use of the bridge and rail line they need for supplies and maybe evacuation.
Flooding would only do much damage on the Russian side of the river and might even compromise the road to the Antonivskiy Bridge.
The canal isn't part of the picture, it is dry in many places and clearly has little flow of water.
He's not worried about denying Ukraine access to the Russian-side lowland in pursuit of his fleeing armies and he'd blow the Antonivskiy bridge behind an evacuation in any case.
Does he want the river fordable upstream perhaps for some future broad front assault with massed hordes of T55s? But again why destroy the dam rather than just open the gates?
I don't see how Russia gains anything from this apart from wrecking a major part of Ukraine's infrastructure which would be a significant handicap and own-goal to a winning Russia. Can they really be thinking of a major withdrawal from the entire region leaving a scorched-earth devastation behind them? That too hardly seems likely.
[missed MS's #10733 post, sorry.]

anyone know what level the ZNPP picks up cooling water at? Won't matter if there is diesel fuel for the generators to run the pumps if the water supply is below the intakes or is gone completely.
That may be a new level of terrorism for a state, to destroy both a regional water supply, and to cause a meltdown of the largest nuclear power plant in Europe all at one go. Won't be a country in the world that will be amused with anyone that does that.... Will be a historic level of self isolation, make North Korea look like model citizens. Pretty sure China, and all of the southern states of the Russian Federation would not be amused by having their land being irradiated by the worlds biggest dirty bomb which would come from what, 6 x VVER1000's... cooling ponds are free flooding or pumped?

At what point does China declare Russia a terrorist state? Seems the US State Department and the UNSG are unable to see their way to doing that.
PACE did, Estonia did, Latvia did, Lithuania did...Italian parliament just declared Russia a Terrorist Regime...


This is our only planet that Putin is screwing about with.


What's wrong with this picture, upstream of the dam?

.

Last edited by fdr; 19th Oct 2022 at 21:50. Reason: 10733
fdr is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2022, 21:04
  #10738 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Bucharest
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by meleagertoo
Why blow the dam - a monumental task - when you can just open the 28 vast sluice-gates that retain the water?
Take this with a truckload of salt, considering the source, but about 12 hours ago Russian TV station NTV, citing the collaborationist head of the Kherson administration, was claiming they started to dump water from the reservoir:

Automatic translation:

Water is being discharged at the Kakhovskaya HPP, it has already been calculated that Kherson will not fall under flooding, but there is a danger for private areas, said Saldo

Earlier, he said that water from the Kakhovka reservoir is preventively sent to the North Crimean and Kakhovka canals in order to reduce its discharge into the Dnieper in case of damage to the locks of the Kakhovskaya hydroelectric power station.
MikeSnow is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2022, 21:30
  #10739 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: aus
Posts: 1,316
Likes: 0
Received 111 Likes on 69 Posts
Are the ruskies so desperate they are resorting to petty theft to get cameras for their orlan drone

Mass theft of speed cameras across Sweden connected to war in Ukraine. According to SÄPO, more than 100 speed cameras (Canon DSLR) have been stolen in recent months, some of which have allegedly been sold to Russia(n proxies) & used in improvised drones
rattman is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2022, 22:55
  #10740 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Yakima
Posts: 592
Received 213 Likes on 84 Posts
From the Associated Press:

The Biden administration on Wednesday announced a round of criminal charges and sanctions related to a complicated scheme to procure military technologies from U.S. manufacturers and illegally supply them to Russia for its war in Ukraine.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...940e13c5ec8c2c
Winemaker is offline  


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.