SNCO Aircrew.... Shafted???
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Charlie_L,. .. .you are so right in your comments, as is Yeller gait above. Sadly, I have seen the light and will soon join the great civilian world outside.. .I regret that there is absolutely no hope of anything coming out of this latest review for AA, and frankly anyone who thinks otherwise needs assessment! I do however, admire their will to give it yet another chance.. .. .Flaps 62, I have read the postings in this forum made by you, and have come to the conclusion that you are a complete ar$e. You are happy to spend all of your time slagging off everyone who makes any derogatory comments about the way AA have been, and continue to be treated. Your comments are plainly those of an ignorant fool, who has no place in todays modern Air force. You want us to believe that you are a good bloke, and know 'whats what' And yet you have been asked in this forum, on more than one occasion, to offer advice to AA about the best way forward, but have declined from doing so. Why I wonder? . .. .You could have made a real name for yourself here, but instead you have chosen to act the fool, and you should be ashamed of yourself. Are you really an officer? surely not.. .Do us all a favour, find a dirty stinking little pit somewhere, crawl into it and rot.. .. .Power to the Flight deck. .. .MM
Dear God, how plain do I have to make it. I have given the most economically valid advice here on numerous occasions but here goes again. You are not "worth" as much as pilots and therefore you need to :. .. .a) stay, enjoy a good standard of living and stop wingeing. .. .or. .. .b) put your money where your mouth is and leave.. .. .Clear enough?
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Flaps my dear (sad) chap,. .. .all those people were right, you don't have a sensible word to say - you are an ignorant fool sir.. . . .Like FGLFB I will not get into a slagging match with you, nor will I rise to your bait.. .Please, go away and rot.. .. .MM
Magic - it may take a while but when all of the current studies and working groups decide yet again that there is nothing new in the pot for AA, then you may realise that that is the reality of life. I am not "insulting you", merely stating the truth. You were on your high horse because I did not take the opportunity to give AA advice on how to better their lot. The long and the short of it is that I do not think that your lot needs bettered at the expense of other things. There is only so much money in the current, very small pot, and it has to be spent where it's needed. As the recent proposals show, that is with the pilots. Unfortunately for you that meant that rear crew Officers had to get the same deal - having your nose rubbed in it is never pleasant but sometimes that's life. The focus of the Air Force must be flying ops and this cannot be conducted without the pilots in the cockpit. Wait I hear you cry, it can't be done without crew and quite rightly, but as some of your colleagues have pointed out, that can still be done. Yes some people will need to be swapped around and work out of position. Not ideal for many reasons but the show can still go on. This is rarely the case with the pilots - they therefore are the key element. Combining this with the pull factor from outside (lower at the moment but give it 12 months) and you see why they get the better deal. This is simply the reality of life in any business, which lets face it, in the days of post NMS we most certainly are in a business.. .For all the huffing and puffing of "that's it I'm off", we all know that you'll still be here next year and the year after because most of you don't have anywhere else to go. The sad truth is that the Air Force knows it to, and thats why you won't get a better deal. I'm sure that this will provoke pages of bile, but believe it or not, that is not my intention. Unfortunately, sometimes the truth hurts.
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Hi Guys. .. .I think we have lost the thread here!!! It seems to have turned into an Ice Station Kilo...Crew Thang.... .. .For what it is worth ..as AA myself...I expect little from our Paymasters (the treasury)...our betters (the Royals) or our peers ( the other guys trying to make a decent go of it)..... .. .Nuff said....SFS
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Guys, unfortunately the truth does hurt. I dont believe that AA will. .benifit from any financial package, however realistically we do not. .get paid that badly for what we do.. .On the other hand most pilots are only taxi drivers getting us where. .we need to go to do the proper job.. .Without AA who would clean the Sqn and do all the gash jobs because . .certainly on my Sqn most the officers are to jack to clean up after themselves.. .(when we're not moaning about money)
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Flap62 is correct in what he says, lads.. .. .There are 2 realistic options:. .. .1) Try(!!!!) to put up with it all. Make a career out of it. Enjoy your families and friends, any time off, spend cash, save cash, build a mansion...whatever it takes to make Ice Station Kilo in particular, bearable.. .. .2) Leave - either remuster, commission or get a marketable skill. Change your life.. .. .Although in to 55, I have decided to leave at my 22 point in 3 years. Military education grants have helped me on the way to an OU Degree, and I am now qualified as a commercial pilot - with plenty of networks to ensure that I am employable one day.. .. .We are doing ourselves a dis-service here on this thread.. .. .What do we really want? How many of us actually applied for AEOp - but were "hoodwinked" into maritime by CIO & OASC? Are our complaints caused by the cynicism of RAF recruiters filling numbers requirements? Certainly the current recruiting poster for SNCO aircrew is a downright lie i.e. ASTOR is not even available yet; and we all know that if you want early promotion you must be at HMP Kinloss on a Nimrod sqn.. .. .Lets give the review a chance.. . . . <small>[ 23 March 2002, 14:28: Message edited by: covec ]</small>
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Flaps,. .. .Thank you for your enlightening comments. Of course you are correct, and we AA of (very) long standing know that only to well, however...... .. .The sad thing in all of this is that RAF AA were sacrificed for the sake of RAF Officer aircrew, and that is what is wrong.. .. .There is no doubt about that, ask those very senior officers that were at the review. I don't mean the senior RAF Officers, but those from the other services. The meeting was concluded with those officers from the Navy and the Army voicing their utter shame and disgust that the RAF Officer element had 'sold the RAF AA down the river' in order to safeguard their own 'wedge'. .. .To lots of us, that is nothing new, but it has shown, particularly to the other services, that RAF officers are in a league of their own when it comes to 'being an officer'. .. .At the same meeting, it was commented that:. ."Army officers are trained and expected to look after their soldiers,. .Naval officers are trained to look after their sailors,. .and RAF officers are trained to look after themselves". .. .Regretably that is absolutely true, and on my sqn many honourable officers are utterly ashamed by what has happened, patently you are not, and that sir is wrong.. .. .I have no idea of your background or indeed what flying badge you wear, but reading the tones of your previous postings, I would assume that you are one of those arrogant two-winged master race, who firmly believes that their $hit don't stink!. .. .You have taken great delight in slagging off many AA over the past few weeks in this forum, and for that you should also be ashamed. . .. .When FGLFB openly asked you for advice and support (following your 'a jag mate of mine blah') you scoffed at the opportunity and slagged him off. When Yeller_gate and Charlie_L have made comments, you have dismissed those also. . .Your comment refering to 'put your money where your mouth is' purely indicates the lack or real leadership and officer qualities you posses, or maybe don't. Is that the way you want the air force to run? people staying in because there is no job outside for them? Is that the sort of leadership qualities that you are taught and promote?. .. .I regret Sir, you are very typical of todays modern RAF Officer, self first, self last and anything left over self first again!. .. .Like those before me, I will not rise to your bait again, but will simply wish you well in your carreer. With your attitude, you will undoubtably go far!. .. .MM. .. .all speeling misteaks are cos of alcohool!!
MM. . .Your comments about leadership are interesting. In my experience of working on several FJ squadrons I have found that everyone pulled together to get the younger guys trained up and ready to take their first steps up the "management" ladder. From the top down there was a concerted effort to ensure that support and guidance was given so that the individual was given a thorough grounding in the basics. As well as helping him to progress professionally, it also might just stop him from flying into a hillside. A lot of this work is done by the "middle management" of Flt Lts, who often work long hours to support the chain, both above and below them. This to me is the essence of "leadership", in action day to day. Yes its not as glamorous as leading the troops into battle, but it has to be done none the less. . .. .From comments such as those from Charlie_L (which I'm appalled that you stand by and yet see fit to claim the moral high ground) it is obvious that a different set of rules operate in your world. There have been numerous threads on pprune from AA telling of how they "showed the new co/skipper/officer who was really the boss". This attitude ranges from leaving bags behind on Det to Charlie_Ls strange quasi-homosexual behaviour. This ingrained attitude has also been relayed to me by many ex-AA over a few beers. . .. .I have never witnessed such an attitude on an Officer aircrew only sqn. By this I do not mean that life is always rosy, of course there are frictions and you get the same self serving gits who will trample anyone in their way, but there is an atmosphere of everyone working towards the same goal. . .. .Have you ever stopped to put yourself in the position of a newly arrived FO at the front of a Nimrod? Constant snyde remarks over the intercom from "hairy old AA" putting the young pup in his place, turning up on Det to find that some wag down the back has pi**ed in his kit bag - don't deny it goes on because I know for a fact that it does (Charlie-L proves as much). You constantly complain about officers generating the "them and us mentallity" and only looking out for themelves. Have you ever stopped to wonder if it's not the culture of - "I've been doing this for 20 years, you shut up and drive" that has eroded the mutual respect that is needed. There must be a common link because the attitude of "lets humiliate the new boy to put him in his place" simply does not exist on any FJ sqn I have seen and if you try to tell me it doesn't in your world, just pause before you do and use the search feature to re-visit old threads.. .. .Leadership, like trust is a two way street. For an efficient, professional outfit there must be effective leadership at all levels. There has been a surplus of leadership on all FJ sqns I have served on at almost all levels. Instead of pointing the finger at your officers, why don't you look around and see who erodes the trust and respect on your unit. You may find that the blame lies uncomfortably close to home.. . . . <small>[ 25 March 2002, 15:58: Message edited by: Flap62 ]</small>
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Flaps,. .. .Oh God, I'm going to do it again, and rise to your bait. I'm sorry, but you do talk such utter hogwash, I just can't pass up this opportunity.. .. .Now, where to begin with this latest load of drivvel you've written?. .. .Oh yes, taking the pi$$ out of young FO's on a Nimrod sqn. Well I can honestly tell you that I have never ever known anyone urinate in anyone elses kit bag, never ever, not even Nimrod aircrew! I have had a JO throw up in my Nav bag on a Nimrod before, and another one chucked up in my helmet bag! But, what the heck - it all washed out.. .. .So what is the problem then? can't young 1st tourist FO's take a bit of pi$$ taking from the 'hairy old Masters'? Oh dear, how sad.. .. .Now lets get on to some serious $hit........ .lets talk about the traditional 'blowing up' of the good old mess piano. Oh I nearly forgot, that's ok for you Officers isn't it? Its 'high spirits' and 'charachter building' (sorry, I forgot about that) well I'm quite happy to play by those rules but as you and I both know, you boys get away with it, we (AA and everyone else in the RAF) do not.. .. .Finally lets talk about something thats really childish....em.....lets see now.....I know, lets play 'set fire to your fellow Aircrew Officer in the Mess' guaranteed to go with a bang!! Was that high spirits, or could it possibly have been just a bit childish?. .. .You are the limit, you have the nerve to accuse AA of childish and petty behaviour. Take a good long look at your own breed Sir.. .. .You have nothing to crow about, you are no better, than most other aircrew from all three services. Your pompous 'FJ sqn' attitude simply confirms all those thoughts that MM, Charlie launcher Yeller gait and all the others think about you. As you say, you are interested in helping out those junior members of your FJ sqn, and that does you credit. However, your help should not not stop at just helping only your officers. Take a good look at QR's and see what your TOS say about looking after ALL your 'juniors'. .. .Lastly, I have known MM for many years, and can assure you that he is a man of genuine integrity and loyalty, and is committed to helping anyone, unlike yourself. As far as he and his fellow Masters are concerned, his one and only TOS under QR's is to be there for 'the guidence of junior officers' enough said!. .. .So there, I've joined in again after I said I would not. Rant over, time for a lye down.. .Good luck to all you FJ JO's, and I'm really sorry for having taken the pi$$ out of some of you over the past few years!. .. .FGLFB
FGLFB,. .. .I must not have made myself clear - so apologies. There is nothing wrong with a bit of banter between ranks and within a crew, in fact I would say it is essential. The value of a well timed bit of banter in deflating an ego is priceless and I'm sure that a happy crew is a much more productive crew. What I see is the problem , as I said, is the "I'll put him in his place and show him who's boss" attitude. You may say that this doesn't occur but in my experience and in conversations with quite a few ex-AA now out of the service, it does happen. I would also refer you to my comments about the threads that have appeared here over the last year or so regarding jolly japes. Most of them harmless, many highly amusing, but more than a few tinged with the rear end mafia flexing their muscles to show who they though was boss.. .. .Regarding your comments re pianos and high spirits. I've re-read my post and can't see where this has come from! I think it is one of the great tradgedies that over the last 10 years the spirit has been knocked out of a great many aspects of service life. I think that there should always be a place for high spirits (whatever the rank) as long as no harm is done and all is made good in the morning. If my last post suggested otherwise, it was not my intention.
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Flaps old fella. .. .You should not believe all you hear in a bar, . .you really dont have a clue do you?. .. .My poor misguided man, you should maybe ask to fly with an mixed crew as an education as I think you would benefit from it.. .As for special sauce your recipe is wrong!
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CL,. .. .Here, here.. .. .You only really appreciate the nuances of operating in a mixed Officer/SNCO crew when you have actually done it. I have a lot to thank the SNCO's and Masters who took me under their wing as a junior shag on the Sqn. Leadership works both ways, as you say Flaps, and I hope I have been able to show the junior crewmen some of that same leadership.. .. .Many of the comments on this thread are remarkably similar to the sentiments amoung pilots and navs before the retention bonus was announced. Methinks the vocal opinion of Officer Aircrew may have in some way helped this bonus to come about. Yes you could bury your head in the sand and say 'AA dry your eyes', but I seem to remember the comment 'there isn't a nav retention problem;' and then there was! . .. .GB
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I'd hate to interupt the slagging match, yes Flaps62, you sir are an arse.. .. .Onto the stuff we should be talking about then:. .It's clear that we won't be getting any finacial gain from the AA review (even if the review isn't really mouth music), so what could we 'haggle' for on the non-finacial side?. . . . ****Quality of life****. No 1 for me, I can only really speak as an AEOp, but here are my suggestions: -. .. . 1. Postings - There are alot of AEOps that like Kinloss. Let them stay there. There are people at Kinloss who don't want to be there, post them down south. PMA - Look at posting preference on ACRs for a change.. . 2. Same rule applies to everyone, no favouritism. Put the right man in the job, not someone you were mates with on a sqn and do them a favour.. . 3. If people want to stay flying, let them. Don't say you 'are to' do a ground tour now to further your career. (we know that AA don't really have a career). I don't know if it still applies, but there used to be a rule that if you were a B cat, you weren't allowed back flying for 5 years. Crap. . 4. What about (more?) exchange tours for AA.. . 5. Leave - Let everyone use their entitlement of leave each year.. . 6. If Master Airmen AIRCREW don't want to go back flying, take their flying pay away. If they object they either do as they are told (like the rest of us) or leave (more promotion prospects for FSs). .. .Just a few suggestions I quickly came up with while getting bored reading P1$$-Flap's drivel.
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CFAR,. .. .couldn't agree with you more mate!. .. .I have consistantly suggested that say every two or three years, ALL the AEOps (and it would work for other AA also) all get together with the PMA wizards, and we sit down and thrash out the next round of postings. After all, there arn't that many of us really are there?. .. .Like you say, many people want to stay at Kinloss, and many don't. There has to be a better way of improving the quality of life by sensible negotiations. I have heard recently that a posting to Cranwell is regarded as a 'rest tour' for ex Kilo AEOps!! and yet when I speak to mates over on applied flight, they tell me they are working their nuts off! so whats that all about?. .. .Of course we will never please everyone, but it would please a lot, and at least those who don't get what they want immediately will be able to see that we are including a modicum of common sense into the posting equation, and it would give them some hope and encouragement.. .. .As for us old masters, well yes you are correct again. But the problem with masters however is (and you will be more familiar with this at Kilo that I am down here) that good old PMA decided on the composition of the Nimrod fleet and crews, and therefore, what do you do with a master who doesn't want to do a ground tour? Do you 'force' him into a ground tour or what? That negates one of your most valid points above, about forcing people into unwanted ground tours.. .. .I have done a couple of ground tours, and in the main I hated them, and did everything I could to get out of them. But, like pma say, where do you go after you have been a Nimrod B cat for 4 years and there are no slots available on any sqns?? It's a big problem.. .. .Sadly, this is now all accademic for me, as I have decided to call it a day and have pvr'd. A sad situation after 30+ years, but a necessary one I feel. . .. .Our problem has been that we have had no one at the top who has been prepared to argue our case. If you look at the way that the fighter controller branch have effectively 'taken over' the E-3D world, you can see just how invaluable it is to have someone high up batting for your side. We have had no one and, I regret to say it, I doubt we ever will. . .. .Having said that, someone will soon have to take the problem by the scruff and sort it out. We are approaching an interesting point in time, with lots of AEOps approaching 'decision time' and I fear that the majority of them will simply vote with their feet. Perhaps when that happens, and a few of your Kilo Sqn Cdrs reflect that in their stats returns to group, strike blah, maybe then will someone take a realitly pill and reverse this appalling trend.. .. .Take heart CFAR, things cannot get much worse, although I seem to remember having said that many times before!. .. .All the best. .. .MM. .. .any speeling misstakes is coz I is pi$$$ed
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As this thread is now at 196 it might be a good idea to close it, and for some to re-group and take the weight off 'things'.. .. .Feel free to start another Mk11 version.. .. .PPRuNe Pop. .Administrator. .[email protected]. . . . <small>[ 27 March 2002, 10:25: Message edited by: PPRuNe Pop ]</small>
