SNCO Aircrew.... Shafted???
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
Join Date: May 2000
Location: England
Posts: 733
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's exactly Flaps62's attitude that is so annoying.
Bear in mind folks that he may NOT actually be an occifer. A lot of people round here are not who they appear to be.
But I will agree with him and others,though. There's no point in bleating about it on here.Yes we have had yet another rough deal which is being "investigated" by those without any honour.
But it's up to us now. Don't get mad get even <img src="mad.gif" border="0">
[ 21 February 2002: Message edited by: The Gorilla ]</p>
Bear in mind folks that he may NOT actually be an occifer. A lot of people round here are not who they appear to be.
But I will agree with him and others,though. There's no point in bleating about it on here.Yes we have had yet another rough deal which is being "investigated" by those without any honour.
But it's up to us now. Don't get mad get even <img src="mad.gif" border="0">
[ 21 February 2002: Message edited by: The Gorilla ]</p>
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,797
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Gorilla bleated:
"Yes we have had yet another rough deal which is being "investigated" by those without any honour."
But according to the latest, whilst there is urgency in getting a result, money does not feature in the solution.
I for one would like to see my flying pay included in my pension package, and it would seem that this option is not being considered, neither is/are any financial incentive(s).
I can feel a new poster / newspaper coming on for our morale. I remember picking up a 4* after the time promotion was 5h1tcanned, and after being asked directly what I thought, I gave him the full monty about pissed off boys voting with their feet. He expected that answer, didnt appear to give a 5hit, and very few if anyone walked. Bottom line, eat 5hit and be happy.
T_M
Edited to avoid narrowing down who I am to 1 person!
[ 22 February 2002: Message edited by: Tiger_mate ]</p>
"Yes we have had yet another rough deal which is being "investigated" by those without any honour."
But according to the latest, whilst there is urgency in getting a result, money does not feature in the solution.
I for one would like to see my flying pay included in my pension package, and it would seem that this option is not being considered, neither is/are any financial incentive(s).
I can feel a new poster / newspaper coming on for our morale. I remember picking up a 4* after the time promotion was 5h1tcanned, and after being asked directly what I thought, I gave him the full monty about pissed off boys voting with their feet. He expected that answer, didnt appear to give a 5hit, and very few if anyone walked. Bottom line, eat 5hit and be happy.
T_M
Edited to avoid narrowing down who I am to 1 person!
[ 22 February 2002: Message edited by: Tiger_mate ]</p>
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: England
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tiger-Mate,. . After having spent considerable time with one of our "chums" from Innsworth, I can assure you that our "Lords and Masters" are fully aware of the way sentiments are running. There is a move afoot (Discussions start on the 4th March) to bring Master/SNCO Aircrew, after their 22 yr point onto "similar" terms as our commissioned brethren. Namely, we shall become some form of "Specialist Aircrew" -- we will not receive any extra money,...but... our Flying Pay (For what it is worth!) will be abolished-and considered as part and parcel of our daily pay. Therefore pensionable. I for one would consider this a vast step in the right direction to retaining "professional" aircrew in a vocation that already does pay a rather enviable salary. After 32 years in the Service, I consider myself very fortunate to still enjoy flying. However I am not so naive as to believe that our present Government will allocate funds unnecessarily if they think they can get away without doing so.I go on record, now, as admitting that I cannot cook a decent meal to save my (or anyone else's) life,.... however I do believe, that there should be a significant differential between the pension awarded to a FS Chef and a Master(Dare we say W.O.) Aircrew Member. At present there is not.. .THAT is what is wrong with the System. I await the final decision with great interest.
Ah ha MAD boom - fell right into the trap. As you say in your post you wouldn't want to be an officer because they "write to many reports". Yes, an officers career has a broader width of responsibilities than your apparently similar airborne duties and that quite rightly is rewarded. As to the comment that SNCO's run the air force - wrong! Snco's of all trades (and don't get me wrong, many are a fine bunch)carry out the wishes of their officers - yes it wouldn't run without them but the same could be said of any rank. I never thought that I should be payed as much as an officer senior to me even though we were doing essentially the same job - why should I, that's not the way it is in a rank based structure. Unfortunately you all seem to be masters of whingeing on an anonymous forum whereas myself and mates like me did something when we thought conditions were unfair. We used the skills we had and spent a good deal of time and money to make them useable in the outside world, then went and got a job. If you're unhappy why don't you do the same - oh hang on, I forgot. The job you do is done in a modern cockpit by a computer the size of a casio watch and there's not much call in the civvie world for someone who's an absolute wizard with lashing tape. So why don't you all realise that you are very well paid, with an excellent pension and most of you don't have too many transferable skills, so get on with it or leave. I hear Burger King are opening 250 resturants in the next 2 years!
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have tried desperately to ignore you FLAP, but I can hold out no longer. I would like to remind you that these snco's with no 'marketable skills' are the same guys who would be fishing you out of the North Sea (that is of course assuming you are an aviator). Not withstanding that, SH,SAR,AT and a whole host of other vital MILITARY aviation roles would be useless without the AA. So there!!
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: ivory tower basement
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Snco's of all trades (and don't get me wrong, many are a fine bunch)carry out the wishes of their officers "
Just how many years have you done (or not done, as the case may be)?. As the above crass statement is wide of the mark and shows a great deal of ignorance. Of course, it does vary from trade to trade, but my officers just sign the bottom of reports which I have written. They have no input to the content. I work and they sit on their arses. I most certainly don't carry out their wishes. In fact, they come to me for my advice, which is how it should be. For the most part, SNCOs do indeed run this Air Force.
[ 22 February 2002: Message edited by: bluntie ]</p>
Just how many years have you done (or not done, as the case may be)?. As the above crass statement is wide of the mark and shows a great deal of ignorance. Of course, it does vary from trade to trade, but my officers just sign the bottom of reports which I have written. They have no input to the content. I work and they sit on their arses. I most certainly don't carry out their wishes. In fact, they come to me for my advice, which is how it should be. For the most part, SNCOs do indeed run this Air Force.
[ 22 February 2002: Message edited by: bluntie ]</p>
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Lincs
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flap,
If all we did was carry out the wishes of our Officers, the RAF would be up before the European courts so often, we'd have a 'Closed' sign on the door. We are often advising you lot how things are allowed to be done on this Planet. When we are enforced to carry out a wish of an Officer against our better judgement and it goes badly pear shaped (As often happens), I've never seen any Officer who will be accountable for his/her decisions.
Gone are the days when they were respected for their integrity and honour and if they messed up they would resign their commission before they were strung up(Hi Uncle Peter). You've got to earn it now.
It's the SNCOs who are the go betweens. You don't deal with the Junior Ranks directly and they don't deal with you directly. You should try to be in the middle of Junior Ranks and Junior Officers - Creche with attitude matey.
<img src="tongue.gif" border="0">
If all we did was carry out the wishes of our Officers, the RAF would be up before the European courts so often, we'd have a 'Closed' sign on the door. We are often advising you lot how things are allowed to be done on this Planet. When we are enforced to carry out a wish of an Officer against our better judgement and it goes badly pear shaped (As often happens), I've never seen any Officer who will be accountable for his/her decisions.
Gone are the days when they were respected for their integrity and honour and if they messed up they would resign their commission before they were strung up(Hi Uncle Peter). You've got to earn it now.
It's the SNCOs who are the go betweens. You don't deal with the Junior Ranks directly and they don't deal with you directly. You should try to be in the middle of Junior Ranks and Junior Officers - Creche with attitude matey.
<img src="tongue.gif" border="0">
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Hiq et Ubique
Posts: 171
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gald to hear it is not just me who thinks this.
Flaps,. .suggest you conduct a bit more research into what SNCO Aircrew really do, it is not all lashing tape, especially on the Mighty Hunter!. .And as Bigley quite rightly says, we are the boys fishing you out of the drink (assuming from your post which quotes you have spent time at the sharp end, maybe whizzy jets? that you are a one of the two wingers), the Loadies are the guys making sure your valuable equipment arrives in theatre, the enigineers make sure you have enough fuel to let you tank across the pond!. . Looking at the ops board today, there is a crew deploying to Lajes to hold SAR for 14 Tonkas on Monday- ready to come to their rescue if they splash in the pond(too busy counting their dosh!). Just think about that next time you have to pop your PLB, then tell us we are not worthy of the same.
Biting like a good'n lately, but find this sort of attitude too much to leave quietly alone.. .MADS
p.s. you will never achieve that desired senior rank if you can't spell 'paid'- just ask your nearest SNCO for some assistance in spell checking!
[ 22 February 2002: Message edited by: MAD Boom ]</p>
Flaps,. .suggest you conduct a bit more research into what SNCO Aircrew really do, it is not all lashing tape, especially on the Mighty Hunter!. .And as Bigley quite rightly says, we are the boys fishing you out of the drink (assuming from your post which quotes you have spent time at the sharp end, maybe whizzy jets? that you are a one of the two wingers), the Loadies are the guys making sure your valuable equipment arrives in theatre, the enigineers make sure you have enough fuel to let you tank across the pond!. . Looking at the ops board today, there is a crew deploying to Lajes to hold SAR for 14 Tonkas on Monday- ready to come to their rescue if they splash in the pond(too busy counting their dosh!). Just think about that next time you have to pop your PLB, then tell us we are not worthy of the same.
Biting like a good'n lately, but find this sort of attitude too much to leave quietly alone.. .MADS
p.s. you will never achieve that desired senior rank if you can't spell 'paid'- just ask your nearest SNCO for some assistance in spell checking!
[ 22 February 2002: Message edited by: MAD Boom ]</p>
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Oman
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flaps
You really are an ignorant tw*t aren't you? At first I though you were a wind up, but you've actually got no fu***ng idea!
I've stopped posting as much so as to not be seen as whinging, however, to sum up what I and most of my fellow SNCO Aircrew feel:
Officer Aircrew are (quite rightly so) paid as Aircrew. i.e. Their flying pay increases their takehome wage to reflect the job they perform (bluntie gets x, pilot gets x + y). For the SNCOs, yes we do get flying pay (£5) or whatever it is in the lowest slot (for your 1st 9 years), that marginally makes us feel that what we do is valued. With the 2 bands of pay, it is very likely that a newly promoted chef will be earning more than a newly promoted ALM! What! A rotary ALM on SH or SAR! That's a disgrace!
As for retention, the stats (I do hate having to refer to them), prove that the Rearcrew Officer is something like 30% overmanned! Yet they qualify for the FRI. AEOps on the other hand are 10% short, and as with the pilots, it's got to be cheaper in the long run to stop them leaving at options than to train new guys and gals.
One other thought is that because SNCO Aircrew join halfway up the pay scale, over a 30+ year career you've hardly got any room for moving up the pay scale ladder. Radical changes are needed for a seperate pay structure, however I think it unlikely that will happen. Pensionable flying pay @ 22 year point will be a step in the right direction.
Flaps, your arrogant comments are not welcome on this topic and create slanging matches. If you have any kind of respect, Sir, then we'd rather you didn't post on this topic again.
You really are an ignorant tw*t aren't you? At first I though you were a wind up, but you've actually got no fu***ng idea!
I've stopped posting as much so as to not be seen as whinging, however, to sum up what I and most of my fellow SNCO Aircrew feel:
Officer Aircrew are (quite rightly so) paid as Aircrew. i.e. Their flying pay increases their takehome wage to reflect the job they perform (bluntie gets x, pilot gets x + y). For the SNCOs, yes we do get flying pay (£5) or whatever it is in the lowest slot (for your 1st 9 years), that marginally makes us feel that what we do is valued. With the 2 bands of pay, it is very likely that a newly promoted chef will be earning more than a newly promoted ALM! What! A rotary ALM on SH or SAR! That's a disgrace!
As for retention, the stats (I do hate having to refer to them), prove that the Rearcrew Officer is something like 30% overmanned! Yet they qualify for the FRI. AEOps on the other hand are 10% short, and as with the pilots, it's got to be cheaper in the long run to stop them leaving at options than to train new guys and gals.
One other thought is that because SNCO Aircrew join halfway up the pay scale, over a 30+ year career you've hardly got any room for moving up the pay scale ladder. Radical changes are needed for a seperate pay structure, however I think it unlikely that will happen. Pensionable flying pay @ 22 year point will be a step in the right direction.
Flaps, your arrogant comments are not welcome on this topic and create slanging matches. If you have any kind of respect, Sir, then we'd rather you didn't post on this topic again.
Sandy - quote
"One other thought is that because SNCO Aircrew join halfway up the pay scale, over a 30+ year career you've hardly got any room for moving up the pay scale ladder".
Didn't hear many of you whingeing when you started as a 20 year old (or whatever) half way up the pay-scale, therebye earning a lot more than someone in a ground trade. So you think that because you started half way up the pay scale that the top should expand to accomodate you. The perk was that as SNCO aircrew you were earning what it would take you 15 years to make in a ground trade. Just because I got accelerated promotion as a graduate, should I have a different pay-scale at the top end as a non-graduate? There isn't one and nor should there be. What you want is firmly in the "cake and eat it catagory". As for flying pay, there are 2 ways to look at it:. .a) its danger pay in which case the closest most of you come ( with a few very worthy exceptions SAR, SH ) to danger is a freak toastie burn at top of climb.. .b) Its a form of retention pay to counter the pull from market forces outside. To this argument may I refer you back to my earlier comments about "marketable skills" and "burger king"
"One other thought is that because SNCO Aircrew join halfway up the pay scale, over a 30+ year career you've hardly got any room for moving up the pay scale ladder".
Didn't hear many of you whingeing when you started as a 20 year old (or whatever) half way up the pay-scale, therebye earning a lot more than someone in a ground trade. So you think that because you started half way up the pay scale that the top should expand to accomodate you. The perk was that as SNCO aircrew you were earning what it would take you 15 years to make in a ground trade. Just because I got accelerated promotion as a graduate, should I have a different pay-scale at the top end as a non-graduate? There isn't one and nor should there be. What you want is firmly in the "cake and eat it catagory". As for flying pay, there are 2 ways to look at it:. .a) its danger pay in which case the closest most of you come ( with a few very worthy exceptions SAR, SH ) to danger is a freak toastie burn at top of climb.. .b) Its a form of retention pay to counter the pull from market forces outside. To this argument may I refer you back to my earlier comments about "marketable skills" and "burger king"
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Hiq et Ubique
Posts: 171
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flaps,. .Flying pay is NOT danger pay, if it were, then all 13 of us on board the same jet would get the same.. .Just because you make the papers for your 'dangerous flying' doesn't mean the rest of us don't do any, belive me we do.. .Again, I ask you to visit a station where AA are highly populated, before you make any more assumptions as to what we do.. .We may join the pay scale half way up the ladder, that can never be denied or unappreciated, but that doesn't mean we should not have the right to want progression which matches those we fly with.. .MADS
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: A 1/2 World away from Ice Statio Kilo
Posts: 404
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flappers old fella.
You bring to mind that old saying:
It is better to keep quiet and be thought a fool than open ones mouth and remove all doubt.
I think Id rather work for Maccy Ds, as then I know for certain, I have a clown in charge. <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
But seriously Flappers my ears must be going as your voice seems to be muffled by your colon.
You bring to mind that old saying:
It is better to keep quiet and be thought a fool than open ones mouth and remove all doubt.
I think Id rather work for Maccy Ds, as then I know for certain, I have a clown in charge. <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
But seriously Flappers my ears must be going as your voice seems to be muffled by your colon.
Well flaps you are one of the reasons that I left, please do come along outside and be in the same wage and allowance package as myself, ok the Capts get more but FO's get the same and in some places less than the FE. If I now have to go the fr8er route I would be pleased to have ex RAF nocker ALM's with me, the FE side of things outside is only luke warm at the moment but I feel that it may improve in the future and yes you are right I would take ex nocker FE's as well sorry for the AEops if I could find something for you guys as well I would. Then where would you be oh yes in your little fast jet, no-one to tank from no one to pick you up when you go swimming but hey you get the wages now don't you and you can sit in the crew room and talk about flying. Upsetting the AA is only one of your problems, your attitude will rub off on the groundcrew and yes I was one of them as well. 25 years man and boy and yes there were prats like you that long ago as well.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flaps,. .Most of the other AA on this forum recognise my style as objective without emotive undertones. Sometimes, without pleasure, I write messages here in broad support of the principles behind policies that have been less than welcome in the AA cadre.
Therefore, for the sake of credulity, I must maintain my style in this particular discussion. So, it is with displeasure, that I have to write objectively in describing your contribution to this subject, as pitiful. If you, as an officer, wish to promote the concept of the officer cadre being more superior on the ground and in the air, you have let yourself and your contemporaries down, badly, in the manner in which you have expressed yourself in this forum.
I don't wish to argue specific points with you, because in some cases the principles that underpin your badly written opinions are basically correct. However, you are clearly wrong in other areas.
You would be badly advised to give up your day job in favour of a new career in PR.
Therefore, for the sake of credulity, I must maintain my style in this particular discussion. So, it is with displeasure, that I have to write objectively in describing your contribution to this subject, as pitiful. If you, as an officer, wish to promote the concept of the officer cadre being more superior on the ground and in the air, you have let yourself and your contemporaries down, badly, in the manner in which you have expressed yourself in this forum.
I don't wish to argue specific points with you, because in some cases the principles that underpin your badly written opinions are basically correct. However, you are clearly wrong in other areas.
You would be badly advised to give up your day job in favour of a new career in PR.
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
Join Date: May 2000
Location: England
Posts: 733
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fergineer - Well said sir.. .Flaps - up and leave us alone.
I feel that you might actually be an officer - a man without honour you most certainly are!!
I feel that you might actually be an officer - a man without honour you most certainly are!!
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: 6 miles 14
Posts: 641
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fergineer, well said old boy. I know a lot of FJ pilots and some are excellent but this guy certainly fits in well at the other end of the spectrum!
--------------------------------------------------
It's dificult to soar with eagles when you work for turkeys!
--------------------------------------------------
It's dificult to soar with eagles when you work for turkeys!
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flaps,. .during my career I have had the privilege and pleasure of working with some of the finest Officers the RAF has to offer and believe me they are true leaders of men. But every now and again someone like you comes along and spoils it! Do me a favour and crawl back down that ****hole that you came from.. .Time for honouring yourself will soon be at an end.
[ 22 February 2002: Message edited by: unclebuckhead ]</p>
[ 22 February 2002: Message edited by: unclebuckhead ]</p>
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The latest Commanders' Briefing promulgates the "AA Sustainability Study". It barely mentions retention and there is nothing about remuneration or pay/pension issues. Not that we should expect anything in this brief, but the direction that these guys have been pointed in doesn't give me a warm feeling.....
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gentlemen,. .Could I please suggest that we stop playing into the hands of this lunatic known as 'Flaps' The man? is clearly a retard, and knows diddly about aviating - ignore him. Lets concentrate our efforts on what to do. . .It is of course easy to become emotive about this latest kick in the AA slats, and I am as guilty as the next man of getting excited and hot-headed in crew room discussions. But, as has been said before, we really must try to present a balanced and strong argument to the airships. The problem is, 'who can we rely on to support us?' I hear countless senior officers pledge their support and loyalty to us, but they then seem to fade away into obscuity just when we think they are getting somewhere. . .Nevertheless, like the majority of AA, I am also of the opinion that it will all be a complete waste of time. If it was meant to happen then we would have already been included. So, what to do? very little I fear chaps!. .Having spoken to the majority of pilots on my sqn there is little doubt that most of them will not take up this latest cunning offer. Of course some people will always sell their sole to the highest bidder, but in the main, most of them are siomply not interested, and indeed are somewhat ashamed and embarrassed at this latest outrage to hit AA.. .There must be some way that we can get together, either in a forum (like Ice Stn Zebra) or some other 'legal' meeting where we can collectively discuss and log our concerns and frustrations - anybody got any good ideas??. .Keep faith boys, we will not win, but lets not lose without a bloody good fight!. .Remember the booklet you all got from the last CAS where he talked of Loyalty, Courage, Commitment, Dedication Blah? - send it back to the new CAS and ask him to read it and practice what it preaches.. .Best wishes. .FGLFB