SNCO Aircrew.... Shafted???
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Push To Shock.. .I'd still recommend that youy apply, yes it's not as good as it used to be and SNCO Aircrew have been shafted, as were the FS and MALM ALMs by last years Job Evaluation. But its still a good well paid job and with more of a future than Air Engineers or Navigators. Go for it. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
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Push to Shock
Loads of respect for the HEMS Paramedics. . .In answer to your query concerning flying pay, you seem to hold the common belief that flying pay is danger money - it is not (although it may once have been), these days it is described as "recruitment and retention pay" and the RAF is becoming quite subtle in how they apply it. For example, I seem to remember a plan to pay Navs more than pilots initially (as they are more difficult to recruit) and then for pilots to catch up and overtake later on (as they are more difficult to retain). Not sure if this ever came to fruitition though.
Loads of respect for the HEMS Paramedics. . .In answer to your query concerning flying pay, you seem to hold the common belief that flying pay is danger money - it is not (although it may once have been), these days it is described as "recruitment and retention pay" and the RAF is becoming quite subtle in how they apply it. For example, I seem to remember a plan to pay Navs more than pilots initially (as they are more difficult to recruit) and then for pilots to catch up and overtake later on (as they are more difficult to retain). Not sure if this ever came to fruitition though.
Apache for HEMS - Strafe those Survivors!
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Maniac55
As ever there are lies, damned lies and statistics, and we all know you can prove anything with statistics. The one you chose to quote of something like 334 sqn ldrs and above in surplus is interesting if you break it down a little more, that nice wg cdr from pma mentioned that over 200 of those were wg cdrs and gp capts. Also at 38/16 over 60% of flt lt and sqn ldr pilots are leaving, for the service to have enough pilots it needs to retain at least 60 %.
The rearcrew trades are not yet in that position, but will be in about 4 years if present trends continue. Note that for both frontend and backend they are trying to fix the problem by recruiting more. HOWEVER, the frontend situation is so dire NOW that they felt they had to do something extra and that something extra is paying people chunks of money. I have my doubts about whether it will actually work. Lots of people have rightly said that the real problem is quality of life not cash, be honest are any of us badly paid? look at the going rate for some very stressful and demanding jobs outside, the queen's shilling is not bad. Also read the health warning on these bonuses "the size of and need for retention payments will be reviewed ANNUALLY" - reads as, once the problem is under control the cash stops.
Yes, ALL aircrew should have their flying pay included in their pension calculation, and I have no problem with the flying pay for ALL aircrew being the same. But bear in mind all of this has to get past the treasury who are notoriously tight-fisted and I think that was more than a little of the problem. However, it was wrong to give rearcrew officers the deal and deny it to SNCOs.
Speaking as someone who has never recieved any retention incentive/linkup/etc from the service, and will not benefit from this one, (and like the murphys, I'm not bitter) I wish the money had been spent on improving living and working accommodation, giving us decent serviceable kit with the right spares support to maintain it, sorting out some of the gross inequalities caused by pay 2000 and putting back some of the fun factor.
But £280 million isn't much in the great scheme of things and in real world terms we got what the treasury felt they could afford us to have. It doesn't make it right but there it is. The reason I will not benefit from the ARR is that like several of my colleagues I am leaving at an option ( I am part of that 60% ). It isnt about the money for any of us, it is about the points I mentioned above and other quality of life issues ( and no I wouldn't have stayed if they had offered me £100 000 tax free at 38 ). I have enjoyed my time in the service enormously and worked with some terrific ( and the odd not so terrific ) people but time to do something else is rapidly approaching.
One final point, I work closely with airman aircrew every day, and have done through my entire flying career, very few are anything other than first-rate professional aviators and I do my best to make sure that everyone above me in the chain knows how highly I value my SNCO colleagues. You would be amazed how many officers of all ranks share that view and are doing their best to support your cause. If you want to make sure that things are put right use facts and evidence to help them, because once it lands on the treasury's mat, and that is ultimately where the bill will fall, that is all that will count. Best of luck fellas.
[ 17 February 2002: Message edited by: keepin it in trim ]</p>
As ever there are lies, damned lies and statistics, and we all know you can prove anything with statistics. The one you chose to quote of something like 334 sqn ldrs and above in surplus is interesting if you break it down a little more, that nice wg cdr from pma mentioned that over 200 of those were wg cdrs and gp capts. Also at 38/16 over 60% of flt lt and sqn ldr pilots are leaving, for the service to have enough pilots it needs to retain at least 60 %.
The rearcrew trades are not yet in that position, but will be in about 4 years if present trends continue. Note that for both frontend and backend they are trying to fix the problem by recruiting more. HOWEVER, the frontend situation is so dire NOW that they felt they had to do something extra and that something extra is paying people chunks of money. I have my doubts about whether it will actually work. Lots of people have rightly said that the real problem is quality of life not cash, be honest are any of us badly paid? look at the going rate for some very stressful and demanding jobs outside, the queen's shilling is not bad. Also read the health warning on these bonuses "the size of and need for retention payments will be reviewed ANNUALLY" - reads as, once the problem is under control the cash stops.
Yes, ALL aircrew should have their flying pay included in their pension calculation, and I have no problem with the flying pay for ALL aircrew being the same. But bear in mind all of this has to get past the treasury who are notoriously tight-fisted and I think that was more than a little of the problem. However, it was wrong to give rearcrew officers the deal and deny it to SNCOs.
Speaking as someone who has never recieved any retention incentive/linkup/etc from the service, and will not benefit from this one, (and like the murphys, I'm not bitter) I wish the money had been spent on improving living and working accommodation, giving us decent serviceable kit with the right spares support to maintain it, sorting out some of the gross inequalities caused by pay 2000 and putting back some of the fun factor.
But £280 million isn't much in the great scheme of things and in real world terms we got what the treasury felt they could afford us to have. It doesn't make it right but there it is. The reason I will not benefit from the ARR is that like several of my colleagues I am leaving at an option ( I am part of that 60% ). It isnt about the money for any of us, it is about the points I mentioned above and other quality of life issues ( and no I wouldn't have stayed if they had offered me £100 000 tax free at 38 ). I have enjoyed my time in the service enormously and worked with some terrific ( and the odd not so terrific ) people but time to do something else is rapidly approaching.
One final point, I work closely with airman aircrew every day, and have done through my entire flying career, very few are anything other than first-rate professional aviators and I do my best to make sure that everyone above me in the chain knows how highly I value my SNCO colleagues. You would be amazed how many officers of all ranks share that view and are doing their best to support your cause. If you want to make sure that things are put right use facts and evidence to help them, because once it lands on the treasury's mat, and that is ultimately where the bill will fall, that is all that will count. Best of luck fellas.
[ 17 February 2002: Message edited by: keepin it in trim ]</p>
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Just to go back a very long way, both on the thread and in time.
In about 1983, Lossie would convert your rail warrant to an air warrant no questions asked because it was "such a long way from civilisation". No use to me - home / girlfriend was in Aberdeen.
When I was posted to Odiham I got a very blank look asking for the same thing in reverse.
Not everybody thinks LM/KS are a long way from home (but my wife does so don't ask me back!)
Sven
In about 1983, Lossie would convert your rail warrant to an air warrant no questions asked because it was "such a long way from civilisation". No use to me - home / girlfriend was in Aberdeen.
When I was posted to Odiham I got a very blank look asking for the same thing in reverse.
Not everybody thinks LM/KS are a long way from home (but my wife does so don't ask me back!)
Sven
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Cyclic,
Dont get me wrong, Im not bitter about someone younger/ less experienced etc getting more money than me, as you say its a fact of life. But, what really grips my #### is the fact that if you join up as O Aircrew, you get better flying pay even though for more than half, they are on the same ac as NCO aircrew whoes flying pay sucks by comparrison.
Also now we have these PA, for whom flying pay is now pensionable, its an insult to all other aircrew who work just as hard, and on the same ac! Surely no one should be penalised on the basis that they have not done x years and waived all rights to promotion! Hell if they offered that to me, I would take it.
Also isnt it the government who are bleating on about how much the OAPs cost to look after? Well after this they are going to be a few bob (euros whatever) short in a couple of years when they start to pension off a lot of these doddery old gits <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">
just a little afterthought.....
Dont get me wrong, Im not bitter about someone younger/ less experienced etc getting more money than me, as you say its a fact of life. But, what really grips my #### is the fact that if you join up as O Aircrew, you get better flying pay even though for more than half, they are on the same ac as NCO aircrew whoes flying pay sucks by comparrison.
Also now we have these PA, for whom flying pay is now pensionable, its an insult to all other aircrew who work just as hard, and on the same ac! Surely no one should be penalised on the basis that they have not done x years and waived all rights to promotion! Hell if they offered that to me, I would take it.
Also isnt it the government who are bleating on about how much the OAPs cost to look after? Well after this they are going to be a few bob (euros whatever) short in a couple of years when they start to pension off a lot of these doddery old gits <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">
just a little afterthought.....
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Sorry about the user name, I noticed too late that someone else has it, and then I could not be arsed. Looks like he may get in the mire when you listen to my point of view.. .You see I am glad you have been shafted again, as I was worried that after I knocked it on the head, that a big load of cash would appear. Well it did, but the postman got it wrong and the AEOs got it! No surprise there then! I got out after the 3rd or 4th shafting (eventually working my ticket)for the trade in 2000. I think you deserve it for the lack of fight you have shown over the years. This should have been nipped in the bud 15 or so years ago when it first started.. .When you get shafted you have 3 options: lump it( in which case stop whinning!! Walk or Fight dirty!. .I took option two after I saw there was no stomach for option 3.. .Mutiny is the way to stop all of this. Simple, you refuse to fly except on SAR and real Ops. Then if this fails stop these two as well. The master race and the other ones sat on their elbows, start to lose some flying currency they may start to take note of the muttering in the ranks. It would be funny to see them make a back end from a bunch of AEOs. It is no good relying on the AEOs to represent you, they are jack and do not give a to$$. They are part of the problem, not the solution. It is in their interest to keep to good boys down! . . I look at comments like DP Harvey, about making a rational and reasoned approach on various enquiry boards!! What tosh! Thats what has happened over the last 10 years and diddly has happened. No boys, get emotive and angry and irrational and fight!! He must be an AEO I suspect, or a 26 year old 'Merit' man MAEOp, yesman.. .The only way forward is to make Trevor Mc Doughnut read it on the 10 O'clock news. THE NCO AIRCREW ARE REVOLTING!! When the public find out what is going on they will love it. Everybody loves a good old David and Goliath story. When the labour voting majority find out that our boys are being continually shafted by the Pimms sipping Telegraph readers in their O's messes, things will soon get sorted and not before.. .Come on boys everyone knows it was NCO aircrew that really won the air war in 39-45. Get some more Rorkes Drift spirit. Do not shoot till you see the whites of their half-moons then keep firing till they are all down or the barrells melt. Then when they are all down bayonet the wounded and rifle the corpses to claim some of what is rightfully yours.. .Make me proud I was once one of you!!
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OK chaps end of silly purile rant!! Seriously though, my thoughts go out to you all as you come to terms with this latest kick in the slats. Just makes me glad I am out.. .Just to say I had no probs leaving and getting work, the training counts for a lot out there. I am so much happier now I have gone. For me the grass really is less brown.. .I guess many more of you will be wanting to knock it on the head now and good luck to you. The RAF will then have the Force they deserve without you. Its about time they learned that you are intelligent blokes and can only take so much of being told you are worthless!!
My best to you.
My best to you.
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<img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> All this talking about it makes everyone, including myself, feel a little better. But what is to be done?. . The senior officer who has been doing the rounds is just a sop (correct spelling). We all feel listened to and go away mumbling about a review that won`t make any difference. If we were going to be included, then we would have been already.. . We have to keep batting away at the same message: that there is good reason to bribe fast jet pilots to stay, and to prevent bad feeling why not include all pilots. Fast jet navs come next so why not include them all, it seems fair.. . All officer aircrew are then included, which shows a generousity of spirit. . . The key point, I think, is that it is an aircrew retention problem; it is not related in any way to having a commission. It is the job that counts. They have included all the others so as to prevent bad feeling amongst crews. Therefore we should be included also. In the Eng Albert world, I look across and see a nav occupying the position that a pedal bin fills on other AFs Alberts with equivalent nav kit. On the Ten/Mighty Hunter the eng has arguably more responsibility (and still some job opportunities outside). On Timmy/Tommy the poor old SNCO manages to fumble his way through his own job & the navs.. . What to do? All I can think of is to write to our desk officers in the form of a petition, stating our opinions. Copy letters & sigs to the local MP/RAF News and the Sun (oops, shouldn`t have said that!). Any other ideas?
<img src="smile.gif" border="0">
<img src="smile.gif" border="0">
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Bigpiccy,
Hmm, I like your thinking - lets get the union reps onto it - Oh! problem is we are not actually part of a union, so I cant see that approach working too well!
I think (sadly) thats it time to admit, that there is no way that were going to get anything unless we all go and do the Cranwell walk . . <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> . I hope I really am wrong, but lets face it, it has been one shafting after another, so why should one more make us all up sticks and walk away? Until people start doing that, I beleive that we will not get a bean <img src="mad.gif" border="0">
Hmm, I like your thinking - lets get the union reps onto it - Oh! problem is we are not actually part of a union, so I cant see that approach working too well!
I think (sadly) thats it time to admit, that there is no way that were going to get anything unless we all go and do the Cranwell walk . . <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> . I hope I really am wrong, but lets face it, it has been one shafting after another, so why should one more make us all up sticks and walk away? Until people start doing that, I beleive that we will not get a bean <img src="mad.gif" border="0">
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<img src="smile.gif" border="0"> 1st Threshold.
We ain`t got a union, but we have got our numbers. If we send polite, reasoned letters that are signed by a lot of people, its all above board and at least we`ve tried. They can`t then claim that everybody was happy. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
We ain`t got a union, but we have got our numbers. If we send polite, reasoned letters that are signed by a lot of people, its all above board and at least we`ve tried. They can`t then claim that everybody was happy. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
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You can't write petitions or any other kind of group action, mutiny Mr Christian, it might sound like a good idea but would only be detrimental to the cause.
If they were going to include us they would have, if the AAR does produce anything it'll probably be 75% of what everyone else gets. <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> (Old ISK joke, but it wasn't at the time!)
[ 20 February 2002: Message edited by: maniac55 ]</p>
If they were going to include us they would have, if the AAR does produce anything it'll probably be 75% of what everyone else gets. <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> (Old ISK joke, but it wasn't at the time!)
[ 20 February 2002: Message edited by: maniac55 ]</p>
Your problems may be solved, but not in the way you would like. Imagine the scenario - Geoff Hoon recently announced that we may have to think the unthinkable and look at roles we no longer need. THe MR4 is way behind schedule (and in trouble?). So 2+2 = scrap the fleet and solve the aircrew retention problem. Who knows? I don't.
I really have had about enough of this treasonous bllx. The long and the short of it is that you should have worked harder at school. If you didn't spend most of your wages on white socks then none of this would be a factor!! Remember that you are not in a democracy - this is the military and you are (like it or not) not Officers so don't bleat when you don't get treated like them.
Edited for tooping - I should have worked harder at school!!
[ 21 February 2002: Message edited by: Flap62 ]</p>
Edited for tooping - I should have worked harder at school!!
[ 21 February 2002: Message edited by: Flap62 ]</p>
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Profile for Flap62 . .Member Status: Just another number . .Member Number: 49805 . .Registered: 11 February 2002 . .Posts: 1 . .Location: Lincs
. .Took him 10 days to come up with that little gem, what a wilf. Get some time in plonker!
. .Took him 10 days to come up with that little gem, what a wilf. Get some time in plonker!
Easy now Tiger_mate or you'll spill your Watneys Red Barrel. I see from your profile that you're a pax consultant. In what I now do we call them stewardessess. Thank you for your advice but I have more than enough time in, most of it closer to the sharp end than your tow-line will ever be. I thoroughly enjoy the whingeing of this forum from a bunch of people who all dress like Boddie and Doyle, struggle with the Sun crossword and whos lifes goal is to own an Escort Cosworth. Keep it coming lads!
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Flap62 I see you are a model Harrier Pilot. (It's 62.5 degrees BTW) Your love for banter and contempt for anyone of lower rank gives you away. Sadly a lot of what's on this thread is NOT banter! These guys feel hard done by! As you rightly point out we're not in a democracy, but please remember next time you need a top up after going sausage side, whithout em you'd be floating on silk! That is if the SNCO armourer has remembered to do his seat indies!
Please remember were supposed to be a team! Not everyone has the interlect to like the Times!
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It's dificult to soar with eagles when you work for turkeys!
Please remember were supposed to be a team! Not everyone has the interlect to like the Times!
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It's dificult to soar with eagles when you work for turkeys!
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Flap 62
Any relation to Admin Guru? . .SNCO's rule the Air Force, like it or not it's a fact, and without us, you wouldn't have a clue how to go about your tiny existence.. .I cordially invite you to spend some time up here in the frozen north and see how far that attitude gets you before 300 AEOps place a fireaxe through your head!. .Will never want to be treated like an officer, would have to salute too much and write too many reports, just want the same pay as someone who flies on the same jet.
Man, did I just rise to the bait or what?. .T****r.
MADS
Any relation to Admin Guru? . .SNCO's rule the Air Force, like it or not it's a fact, and without us, you wouldn't have a clue how to go about your tiny existence.. .I cordially invite you to spend some time up here in the frozen north and see how far that attitude gets you before 300 AEOps place a fireaxe through your head!. .Will never want to be treated like an officer, would have to salute too much and write too many reports, just want the same pay as someone who flies on the same jet.
Man, did I just rise to the bait or what?. .T****r.
MADS