SNCO Aircrew.... Shafted???

[ttthompson]

An' annuver fing...... SAR Winchies shafted with no recognition for thier Paramedic qualifications, no Paramedic/Aeromed pay, not even considered for an AIP!!. .. .But don't worry, the med techs that look after the monitors on Aeromeds are getting it. . .. .Consistency, the key to Airpower.

[left one o clock]

Just heard the NCO ac promotion board has been delayed from Jan/Feb to Apr/May. I believe this to be unusual. Am I paranoid? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" /> . .Any thoughts?

[The Mistress]

Yozzer - re first line of your 5 March post.. .. .The appalling double standards you practice on this bulletin board are truly amazing.. .. .As an aside, something which does affect the quality of life/standard of living of some SNCO Aircrew serving at Brize is the fact that the asbestos is finally being stripped out of their quarters. Something my old man played a part in bringing about.. .. .What do you think Mrs R*bs*n <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />

[Baz Heath]

Ladies and Gentlemen,. .. .Lets all calm down and stop the sculldugary!!!!. .Yozz my dear Chap, you are offside and should say sorry (quickly I would suggest!)to the Lady.. .Lets get back to the focus of this item, and the fact that the poor old AA have been shafted yet again.. .I have it on good authority that the airships and staff officers read this drivvel! (see comments from Flaps 62 above) . .Well, to all Dear Senior Officers, if you do read this, please go public and answer the following points:. .Why, when it was acknowledged in the ARR, that the Army has NO shortage of SNCO aircrew, were they included in the scheme? And why, when it was acknowledged in the very same report that there IS a shortage of RAF AA, were they not? . .Have you all gone barmy, or am I missing something here?. .Sorry to drag you AAC SNCOs into this chaps, I'm delighted that your Officers look after you, perhaps you could send some over to us in the Light Blue maybe???. .. .In the meantime Yoz, patch up your differences with the mistress, and direct all that 'good intentioned' effort into fighting our corner.. .. .Any speeling mistake are all alckohool induced!#. .. .L & K. .. .MM

[Shouting Rad-Alt]

Just when you thought it couldn't get worse! The Cpl Crewman saga has resurfaced. Recently heard that this will be reviewed by PMA.

[cheapseat]

Gone are the days when it mattered what rank you were in HM Forces. Rank once stood for achievement with honour, which was seen as a worthwhile goal. It would appear, from this site and all the crew rooms I’ve recently enjoyed, that today’s airman (RN, Army or RAF), only works for money. With that in mind, what does Cpl crewmen matter? A Sgt AAC pilot will earn far more than a MAEop and even the RAF couldn’t let a Cpl ALM earn less than a Cpl Cook.. .. .Cpl crewmen would probably be one of the few things that would do ALM’s any good. I say this because this would effectively stop anyone from remustering to the trade and probably make the civvies wonder if it’s worth it. This, and only this, will put ALM’s on a par with AEops ie; not quite enough bums on seats but, more importantly, no one feeding the system from the bottom.

[lucky_b*]

We have just had a chat with AMP and the staish. Not much was actually said except that the original Aircrew Review which apparently did include AA was tri-service and was therefore a compromise all along the way. At any time any service could effectively red card any propositions being made which is what happened to us, either the Navy and/or the Army vetoed AA being in the last review. Thus we got nothing at all! Our latest review is also to be tri-service so whatever is suggested by the RAF review team has to get pass the Army and Navy as well as the treasury! And from the way the AMP was talking it seemed that there will be no distinction between AA just as none was made between OA. So if we're not short of ALMs and not desperately short of AEs then it won't matter that AEOps are few on the ground! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

[maniac55]

Luck_b*. .. .I don't know if it was mentioned previously on this thread, but at the brief ISK got from the Wg Cdr doing the rounds that the Army guy said he would 'Die in a Ditch' and nothing would get through unless it included Army pilots (no distinction on Rank!). . .. .Yozzer. .. .The way I understood it was that the standard PVR time had been dropped to 12 months, due to the EU of course <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> , but NGR is still 18 months.. . . . <small>[ 16 March 2002, 13:11: Message edited by: maniac55 ]</small>

[currybuoy]

now firstly i hope this doesn't ruffle to many of my knockers feathers, i have been on the receiving end of the crap about this retention bonus for the past few weeks with endless comments about how the galley on the kipper jet is now self service for officers, comments about sizes of wallets etc. to be honest i am sick of the crap attached to this. how many of the officers etc are receiving the bonus? not as many as you would think, i am not a pilot and i work on a crew jet, however if they don't keep the boys at the pointy end no one goes flying. if they keep most of us down the back then we can be shuffled around to fit in the gaps. noone likes to see sqn's short on numbers but it happening and we have to get on with it, after all thats what we are here for. It saddens me to read of people suggesting that we should have a union, go on strike, or mutiny. i don't think that anyone can complain about the amount of money that any of us get as we don't do to badly, all you have to do is look at the cars, hoildays etc that everyone of my mates, officer or knocker go on each year. it's also a fact that most nco aircrew earn more money then junior officers when we arrive on front line sqn's due to the amount of time it take officers to go up the pay scale, yes i know whats coming the flying pay issue, but if you want the same amount of money as officers get paid then become one of them or stop whinging. the pay is all related to the responsibily on the aircraft, time and qualifications required to do the jobs and natural abilty. Somebody will always get paid more then you if you want the same then you have to do the same job.

[lucky_b*]

Actually currybuoy I think you have spoken plain enough for your ilk.. .. .I for one do not deny that they are desperate for fast jet jockies, fair enough give them a wad see if it works, but you and your kind are two a penny. They don't need any more of you but you still get the wad. Whereas we don't because the RN didn't want us too. Presumably the RAF did!!!!. .. .The flying pay issue has never gone away. In the eighties when you were a twinkle in at least your mother's eye, we were arguing with the powers that always be, to give us the same FP. Their answer then, was that FP had nothing to do with flying but was a means of targeting retention! Thus from an early age the RAF never wanted us as much as you. Then through the nineties when it was accepted at PMC that there was a shortage of AEOps, we were promised that they were looking at the situation, and that the most likely outcome was an increase in FP. Guess what, oh yeah, nothing happened!! . .. .Then finally we hear there is an AIRCREW Retention Review, perhaps something will happen, who knows, the situation is bad enough!! Ah but wait, no, the situation is known to be bad but only bad enough to have our own review. What will come out of it! Who knows maybe we'll get lucky this time!!. .. .I know how lucky I am to be doing this job! I know how well paid I am doing a job I actually like! But what really gets my goat! Is T%%ts like you telling us how lucky we are, whilst you reach into your back pocket wave your wad in the air and say tough to the rest of your crew. They are the guys who might save your life one day, even if it's only to stop you shredding the wrong bit of paper! But will you thank them, will you hell!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" />

[currybuoy]

lucky b*, i for one am not getting the bonus and am unlikely to as they will have moved the goal posts again by the time i get to the appropriate point in my career, as i have some way to go, although i am not as young as you may think. Glad i got such a spicy reply and i am sure there are more to come but i will answer all replies in a fair way. You cannot expect to be paid the same as pilot and nav aircrew unless you do the same job. I agree that the guys i work with down the back may save my neck one day infact a couple of close occasions do spring to mind. i for one do not wave my WAD at anyone i have more sense than that, in fact i don't know anyone who does, if thats your perception then it is very misplaced. it may be how it seems to you but you are wrong, there are many guys especially at multicrew stations who are getting the bonus who have not told anyone. I realise that all branches are short of people nav's included so get your fact straight before you start sl***in other branches and people off for trying to offer a sensible view. If you were commissioned as either a pilot or nav you would get the same money, so stop whinging and do something about it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />. . . . <small>[ 20 March 2002, 18:39: Message edited by: currybuoy ]</small>

[Charlie Luncher]

CurryBuoy. .. .I will with great glee watch you bleat as you approach your option point, hopefully post 2004 when your trade will be further overborne, and some faceless treasury official shafts you.. .It is essential to have pilots to fly us around however, it is also essential to have the sensor operators to achieve the operational task.. .. .As usual my blue blooded brother you miss the point it is not about money it is about mistreatment of SNCO aircrew. Everyone can move around on the Sqn to fill gaps, but those individuals do not get continuity of training with their own crew making professional advancement difficult, thus making AIPs and promotion more difficult, lowering of morale and into the downward spiral we go.. .. .As for the galley it always has been self service, it is just that some of your crew are better crew/team players than you. I am whipping up some special sauce just for you as a limited edition; you will be joining an elite bunch who have sampled it. I would give you their names but it would cost me too much beer.. .If you want me to elaborate on any points buy me a beer as I will always have a sharpened finger for you.

[Flap62]

Well curry, it took your accurate and brave comments to start seeing the real side of these "fabulously professional aircrew" down the back who are constantly waiting to "save our lives one day". Lucky_* - your comments about being nothing but a twinkle in the 80's give you away as one of those patronising old t**ts who think that because they've seen it and done it that the normal rules and regulations don't apply to them.. .. .Charlie Luncher - your comments are beneath contempt. We all know what you're alluding to and I hope that there are a good many of your brethern out there who shudder when reading your comments. In one short paragraph you have showed exactly where the them and us attitude originates and your pathetic schoolboy "reprisals" show why you lack the integrity and maturity to be considered as an equal partner to any officer, and therefore why you should be payed differently.. .I now fly with 19 year old girls down the back who have more professionalism in their little finger than they have in your whole body. Yes we've all flown with skippers who are complete to**ers but you grit your teeth and do the job to the best of your ability and prove that way that you are better than them. Overgrown schoolboys like you have no place in a modern airforce, and I am very glad to say, in a modern airline.

[Terry Rumble]

Lucky_B & Charlie Launcher,. .. .How right you are gentlemen. There is no doubt that we have, and will continue to get shafted as long as we have spineless and leaderless senior officers in charge of the RAF <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> . . . .Currybuoy, you should know better - so shut up <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" /> . .. .FGLFB. .. .ps Dont rise to the bait offered by Flaps, he has been quiet for a few days, but appears to have taken another 'stupid' pill and stated slagging off AA <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" />

[currybuoy]

It's nice to see such an cheerful response from you CL. If its not about money then why has that been the big debate on most of the sqn's. Before you start making assumptions about someones elses trade check your facts! if you have a look at kinloss you will realise that all branches are short. i realise that you do suffer from crew to crew and the training suffers but that is the same for everyone. If your not complaining about not getting the retention 'bonus'(pse note) then why is that all you hear about? take luck b's comments above about wads etc! As for the galley when time permits i try to do my bit altough i have been told to stop making coffe as it tastes like tar! thanks for the offer of the special sauce, i always enjoy grown up comments like that. Flap 62, i don't know your history but don't get these guys wrong, they are amoungst some of the most professional guys i have ever had the pleasure of working with,99% are top lads and lasses who take pride in their work and it's great fun to fly with them. It make going on det an excellent experience. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />

[Capt Widebody]

Currybuoy. .. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> i have been on the receiving end of the crap about this retention bonus for the past few weeks with endless comments about how the galley on the kipper jet is now self service for officers, comments about sizes of wallets etc. to be honest i am sick of the crap attached to this </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Wake up and smell the lovely coffee which your knockers have made you. I don't think it's the FRI they are taking issue with. Based on your comments so far, my bet is that it's your attitude.. .. .You work on a crew jet, how about supporting the rest of your crew? If "go out and get a commission if you don't like it" is your answer, then you need a serious reality check, my friend.

[Charlie Luncher]

Curry Buoy. .. .Old fella my facts are correct as we had a chat with AFLB and Gp to get our view and insight on how we felt after the announcement. Large wads of cash were never mentioned by myself or my comrades, sorry but I am a realist and I would rather see a longterm change rather than a short term fix for a few old siggies who smell of wee anyhow.. .Money is an emotive and divisive subject and it easy for people to jump on the bandwagon - not my moneybag baby. As for shortages at Ice Station Kilo location is a player, the local mafia wish to stay and there are as many who do not. Heavy seas lie ahead but you can still buy me beer! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> . .. .Oh flaps you really have no idea - fool.. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" />

[currybuoy]

capt w, it is all well and good for you to sit there and comment on my attitude, actually the coffee the knockers on the crew make is very good, wish i could say the same for mine! unfortunately some of the people at kinloss don't have the same attitude as old charlie boy, and the money issue has caused frition between members of a few crews, i enjoy working on the nimrod as already stated, and would like to see the guys up to full manning, it was only the other day i was presented with a piece of paper by one of the guys stating that in the last year he'd not spent one school hoilday at home with his kids, now if we can solve the problem get more poeple in the it makes for a happier force and more efficent performance. the past few weeks have been awkward as the retention bonus has caused more than a few ripples. my point is that everyone is short of people and just as i can't expect to get the same money as a sqn ldr, some of the knockers can't expect to get the same money as a flt lt, i think that is a perfectly reasonable point. if only i could get sqn ldr's pay, would be nice!

[dave_g]

I have read with interest most, if not all of the messages over the last 3 months, and apologise if I repeat what has already been said.. .. .I too was at the Nim(South) briefing on 8 Sqn a couple of weeks ago, and yes, it all sounds plausible, a review aimed specifically at AA, as opposed to being added in at the last minute when lumped in with our officer aircrew bretheren. But lets be real world about this, we are not going to get any of the money that the O's are getting, in fact we won't get any of it. There have been some interesting comments about the fact that Innsworth accept that a number of us will leave at our 22; this is not the case, and Innsworth expect that most of us will stay on beyond 22. We can really f**k there planning by leaving at 22, I for one will be doing so. (And that comes from the previous postings man, who I know well). It may not do me any good to leave at 22, but hopefully it will benefit the rest of you guys (and gals).. .. .To me, if you want to get on in life... get out.. .. .I have seen the light and it is time to go. . . . <small>[ 23 March 2002, 00:39: Message edited by: Yeller-gait ]</small>

[Flap62]

Oh dear Charlie L, it seams that you neither have the memory span or the mental age to understand any of the posts I have written over the last few months and it has taken one of your own (see above) to reinforce my points. Officers have now got a retention package because pilots had marketable skills in life outside and so, when they'd had enough - they left. This caused a lack of bums on seats and so the retention package was introduced. As a by product of this, Officer rear-end crew benefited even though there was less of a retention problem there. The other option of leaving (in your 30s or 40s) without an instantly marketable skill (civvie aviation is becoming a 2 crew world) requires a certain amount of balls - this is admirably demonstrated by your colleague above.. .So in summary if you want to see your lot improved you either have to have a marketable skill or to have balls. It would appear that as you are content to sit here bleating, you have neither.. .Put your money where your mouth is and leave if you're not happy. The money comparrison with Officers that you work beside down the back end is false because their package is driven by pilots and they are the ones who "drive" the whole retention issue. If you think you can expect to persuade their airships that you are as valuable commodity in the current (or any future)market as the pilots, then prepare to be disappointed.