Parliamentary Questions concerning Hercules Safety
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Thank you airborne artiste - yr links seem to work fine!
I cannot begin to wonder what are the thoughts going through the minds of Pards' dad and the other relatives. It doesn't bear contemplation.
All this was, however, so sadly predictable and my heart is so heavy for the families. I just hope that they are being brave as they go through what must be an incredibly difficult time.
Hang in there with Chappie and Nige - the sane world is with you!
Flip
I cannot begin to wonder what are the thoughts going through the minds of Pards' dad and the other relatives. It doesn't bear contemplation.
All this was, however, so sadly predictable and my heart is so heavy for the families. I just hope that they are being brave as they go through what must be an incredibly difficult time.
Hang in there with Chappie and Nige - the sane world is with you!
Flip
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good news...we've got them!
just to spread tidings of joy on this lovely morning.
i have been very reliably informed that john reid was on the today programme on the 08.10 interview. he was asked about the hercules right at the very end of it and his reply was....
"with the benefit of hindsight i think that the crash would have been survived if there had been foam on board"
please bear in mind guys the sentiment is there but the emotion has got in the way. all i can see is a red mist that has desenced over my eyes and a mixture of pure joy at the statement as we've got him over a barrel now and pure and utter helplessness at the fact i'm without bob because of what they've done.
it can be checked on the web site on radio 4 0810 interview on the today programme.
it's a good job that i've got the solivitor booked for next week now, eh?!
i've been through the papers and the guardian, the independent, the times, the express and the mirror are covering it but only very small columns.
i feel so helpless at the moment. while the MoD are playing hide and seek with us. i don't understand why the media haven't grabbed this thing by the balls! i am so proud of nigel. he his amazing. the ironic thing was that C4 can set up a link from LA but were unable to set one up in cambridge! the interview was fantastic and it helped seeing it all visually for those of us that aren't plane minded.
what we need to do to keep the pressure up on the government is lobby our MP's to help us call for this and to start asking questions and add pressure on blair and his governmnet.
i have been very reliably informed that john reid was on the today programme on the 08.10 interview. he was asked about the hercules right at the very end of it and his reply was....
"with the benefit of hindsight i think that the crash would have been survived if there had been foam on board"
please bear in mind guys the sentiment is there but the emotion has got in the way. all i can see is a red mist that has desenced over my eyes and a mixture of pure joy at the statement as we've got him over a barrel now and pure and utter helplessness at the fact i'm without bob because of what they've done.
it can be checked on the web site on radio 4 0810 interview on the today programme.
it's a good job that i've got the solivitor booked for next week now, eh?!
i've been through the papers and the guardian, the independent, the times, the express and the mirror are covering it but only very small columns.
i feel so helpless at the moment. while the MoD are playing hide and seek with us. i don't understand why the media haven't grabbed this thing by the balls! i am so proud of nigel. he his amazing. the ironic thing was that C4 can set up a link from LA but were unable to set one up in cambridge! the interview was fantastic and it helped seeing it all visually for those of us that aren't plane minded.
what we need to do to keep the pressure up on the government is lobby our MP's to help us call for this and to start asking questions and add pressure on blair and his governmnet.
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JTO,
Yep, I've just listened and tend to agree with you - typical, if not unexpected!
Dr Reid mentioned that we (the RAF) were more concerned with SAMs - this is debateable and if it were so it was only because we were flying at high-ish level and at night. As soon as the pressure to fly 24/7 and at LL increased, Small Arms became more of a threat - as we predicted - that is why the sqn (SF and Main, IIRC) requested foam to complement the flight deck armour in 2002.
To say that cost was the only reason foam was refused would be naive - sure, the loss of AT capability would have been significant but worth it. I can even empathise with the budget holders as the MOD's paltry war-fighting 'extra' pot from Mr Brown was gobbled up quickly by other Services. Perhaps the Chancellor is ultimately responsible? Who knows?
But as far as I'm concerned, MOD were made aware of the risks and good friends of ours were fighting our corner - but not being listened to.
So, the ultimate blame MUST fall at the feet of MOD and Ministers - that is how a hierarchy should work, n'est pas?
Nonetheless, as Dr Reid implied (on behalf of Charles Clarke's Home Office shambles, strangely enough) that "Yes, mistakes are made" and "have to be rectified".
If he follows his own advice, the def minister remains responsible for
1. Making sure mistakes don't happen again (or on different ac types)
2. Admitting his deptarment's mistakes
but also, I believe
3. Apologising to the victims for the errors
and
4.Making sure they (or the relatives) are recompensed.
It seems to me that the ministers are (reluctantly) getting better protection for some our ac and even admitting to gov't mistakes - now, Dr Reid, it is time to ensure protection for all ac and also for responsibilities 3 and 4.
flipster
Yep, I've just listened and tend to agree with you - typical, if not unexpected!
Dr Reid mentioned that we (the RAF) were more concerned with SAMs - this is debateable and if it were so it was only because we were flying at high-ish level and at night. As soon as the pressure to fly 24/7 and at LL increased, Small Arms became more of a threat - as we predicted - that is why the sqn (SF and Main, IIRC) requested foam to complement the flight deck armour in 2002.
To say that cost was the only reason foam was refused would be naive - sure, the loss of AT capability would have been significant but worth it. I can even empathise with the budget holders as the MOD's paltry war-fighting 'extra' pot from Mr Brown was gobbled up quickly by other Services. Perhaps the Chancellor is ultimately responsible? Who knows?
But as far as I'm concerned, MOD were made aware of the risks and good friends of ours were fighting our corner - but not being listened to.
So, the ultimate blame MUST fall at the feet of MOD and Ministers - that is how a hierarchy should work, n'est pas?
Nonetheless, as Dr Reid implied (on behalf of Charles Clarke's Home Office shambles, strangely enough) that "Yes, mistakes are made" and "have to be rectified".
If he follows his own advice, the def minister remains responsible for
1. Making sure mistakes don't happen again (or on different ac types)
2. Admitting his deptarment's mistakes
but also, I believe
3. Apologising to the victims for the errors
and
4.Making sure they (or the relatives) are recompensed.
It seems to me that the ministers are (reluctantly) getting better protection for some our ac and even admitting to gov't mistakes - now, Dr Reid, it is time to ensure protection for all ac and also for responsibilities 3 and 4.
flipster
Last edited by flipster; 3rd May 2006 at 11:49.
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I agree with all that has been said before but it seems to me it would be an inevitable outcome. The 'Airforce' recieves huge sums of public money to buy and implement what it percieves to be important equipment.If they decide to spend it on flashy 'gate guards' then the politicos will just wash their hands of us.
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Not helpful Mr Gray.
http://www.thisiswiltshire.co.uk/search/display.var.748352.0.mp_shrugs_off_airmans_claim.php
Try telling my 11 year old daughter to let it lie, she has no intention of either!
http://www.thisiswiltshire.co.uk/search/display.var.748352.0.mp_shrugs_off_airmans_claim.php
Try telling my 11 year old daughter to let it lie, she has no intention of either!
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500days2do
Gate guards? do you mean those celebrations of former glories when the Air Farce was a Force, or the little blokes with guns stopping the baddies getting inside the wire?
Gate guards? do you mean those celebrations of former glories when the Air Farce was a Force, or the little blokes with guns stopping the baddies getting inside the wire?
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From Grays website, he asked this Q on 26 Jan:
'Would the Secretary of State mind if I asked a detailed question of key concern to my constituency? In his statement before Christmas on the loss of the Hercules, the largest single loss of life in Iraq, he stated that the only thing that he could find that was wrong was that the Hercules did not have foam retardant systems in the wings. Will he give the House an assurance this afternoon that the four Hercules aircraft to be deployed in Afghanistan will have full air defensive suites of all kinds supplied to them, as I am sure they will? Also, I know that he is in discussions with Marshalls of Cambridge about the fitting of foam retardant to the wings. Will those discussions have achieved some kind of outcome by the time of the deployment?'
I think we know the answer to the questions by now. Perhaps Gray felt that too much publicity by Nigegilb would out his apparent lack of tenacity in looking after the interests of his constituents?
'Would the Secretary of State mind if I asked a detailed question of key concern to my constituency? In his statement before Christmas on the loss of the Hercules, the largest single loss of life in Iraq, he stated that the only thing that he could find that was wrong was that the Hercules did not have foam retardant systems in the wings. Will he give the House an assurance this afternoon that the four Hercules aircraft to be deployed in Afghanistan will have full air defensive suites of all kinds supplied to them, as I am sure they will? Also, I know that he is in discussions with Marshalls of Cambridge about the fitting of foam retardant to the wings. Will those discussions have achieved some kind of outcome by the time of the deployment?'
I think we know the answer to the questions by now. Perhaps Gray felt that too much publicity by Nigegilb would out his apparent lack of tenacity in looking after the interests of his constituents?
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Mr Gray (I will be writing to you) - how dare you?
I'm spitting at the suggestion that Nige is a self-publicist - you couldn't hope to meet a more genuine guy - perhaps, you don't recognise one, as there are so few of them in the House of commons?
I thought you, Mr Gray, were also 'a good guy' but you have gone way down in my estimation and you have probably lost yourself a whole load of votes in your constituency.
Nigel and Sarah have done more to get this urgent debate moving than perhaps you realise, or maybe you wish you had done more yourself?
Whatever your reason for your ill-considered comments, please wake up, smell the coffee and get on the right side of the fence - with those whom are morally correct. Come and join us - don't be weighed down by party politics.
You know it makes sense.
I'm spitting at the suggestion that Nige is a self-publicist - you couldn't hope to meet a more genuine guy - perhaps, you don't recognise one, as there are so few of them in the House of commons?
I thought you, Mr Gray, were also 'a good guy' but you have gone way down in my estimation and you have probably lost yourself a whole load of votes in your constituency.
Nigel and Sarah have done more to get this urgent debate moving than perhaps you realise, or maybe you wish you had done more yourself?
Whatever your reason for your ill-considered comments, please wake up, smell the coffee and get on the right side of the fence - with those whom are morally correct. Come and join us - don't be weighed down by party politics.
You know it makes sense.
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UK's Reid says plane safeguard may have saved lives
By Kate Kelland
LONDON, May 3 (Reuters) - Defence Secretary John Reid
admitted on Wednesday that the lives of 10 Royal Air Force
crewmen killed in Iraq could have been saved if their Hercules
aircraft had been equipped with fuel tank fire protection.
Reid told BBC radio the "tragedy might have been averted" if
a fuel tank inerting system, used as standard by the Americans,
had been fitted.
"With hindsight ... of course it is possible to say that
this tragedy might have been averted if we had done that," he
said.
But he insisted the decision not to fit the fuel safety
system had been right at the time.
By Kate Kelland
LONDON, May 3 (Reuters) - Defence Secretary John Reid
admitted on Wednesday that the lives of 10 Royal Air Force
crewmen killed in Iraq could have been saved if their Hercules
aircraft had been equipped with fuel tank fire protection.
Reid told BBC radio the "tragedy might have been averted" if
a fuel tank inerting system, used as standard by the Americans,
had been fitted.
"With hindsight ... of course it is possible to say that
this tragedy might have been averted if we had done that," he
said.
But he insisted the decision not to fit the fuel safety
system had been right at the time.
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Military economy measures cost lives
THE article in your paper last week, Testing Time for Base, over the RAF Lyneham Base and the safety of the C130 Hercules aircraft currently flying in Iraq and Afghanistan, quoted a surprising reply from North Wiltshire MP James Gray.
Mr Gray had the effrontery to say he did not think it was true'' when pilot Nigel Gilbert accused the MOD of penny-pinching and not putting safety foam in the wings to prevent fires and explosions.
What else would he call it?
I know Mr Gilbert and he is not a liar, he has a distinguished flying record as a pilot over many years, with the RAF (with jets and Hercules) and now with a major civilian airline.
For more than 20 years, the military has asked for either foam, or inert gas, to be inserted as safety measures in the Hercules, but due to installation and other problems, the decision to proceed was postponed for a while''.
Several subsequent requests have all been declined by the MoD on the grounds of cost, a fraction of the total aircraft cost, and the fact that it takes several weeks to install each one, but it does stop a single rifle bullet from bringing down this huge aircraft.
The total inability of the Government to manage the defences of our country properly means we are now so short of aircraft, they cannot be spared long enough even to make them safe for troops to use.
Mr Gray was himself, for a very short while, Shadow Minister of Defence, during which time he had all these facts readily available to him, so don't come it, Mr Gray. Economy measures in this area always cost lives and this is extremely distressing for anyone connected with the military in all services. Our troops, all volunteers remember, deserve not just better, but the best.
S D Parr.
Pershore.
Worcsestershire
It appears our local Conservative MP Mr James Gray has entered the fray again. O dear I think he is going to regret that. Just when his friend the Defence Secretary has decided my "story" might be right after all........
NG
THE article in your paper last week, Testing Time for Base, over the RAF Lyneham Base and the safety of the C130 Hercules aircraft currently flying in Iraq and Afghanistan, quoted a surprising reply from North Wiltshire MP James Gray.
Mr Gray had the effrontery to say he did not think it was true'' when pilot Nigel Gilbert accused the MOD of penny-pinching and not putting safety foam in the wings to prevent fires and explosions.
What else would he call it?
I know Mr Gilbert and he is not a liar, he has a distinguished flying record as a pilot over many years, with the RAF (with jets and Hercules) and now with a major civilian airline.
For more than 20 years, the military has asked for either foam, or inert gas, to be inserted as safety measures in the Hercules, but due to installation and other problems, the decision to proceed was postponed for a while''.
Several subsequent requests have all been declined by the MoD on the grounds of cost, a fraction of the total aircraft cost, and the fact that it takes several weeks to install each one, but it does stop a single rifle bullet from bringing down this huge aircraft.
The total inability of the Government to manage the defences of our country properly means we are now so short of aircraft, they cannot be spared long enough even to make them safe for troops to use.
Mr Gray was himself, for a very short while, Shadow Minister of Defence, during which time he had all these facts readily available to him, so don't come it, Mr Gray. Economy measures in this area always cost lives and this is extremely distressing for anyone connected with the military in all services. Our troops, all volunteers remember, deserve not just better, but the best.
S D Parr.
Pershore.
Worcsestershire
It appears our local Conservative MP Mr James Gray has entered the fray again. O dear I think he is going to regret that. Just when his friend the Defence Secretary has decided my "story" might be right after all........
NG
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Nige,
Good to hear your voice at the end of an internet radio stream, and that you were able to work the words "fireguard" and "chocolate" into your analysis of MoD defensive aids policy.
Keep up the good work the both of you!
Good to hear your voice at the end of an internet radio stream, and that you were able to work the words "fireguard" and "chocolate" into your analysis of MoD defensive aids policy.
Keep up the good work the both of you!
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I have read with interest all the comments about XV179. Naturally I totally agree that all efforts should be made to protect our planes and aircrew. All efforts should be to protect ALL our servicemen.
Maybe this campaign should encompass more than just the ESF.
Has anyone asked the families of the 179 crew how they feel about the constant media attention during this effort to force military issues?
Maybe this campaign should encompass more than just the ESF.
Has anyone asked the families of the 179 crew how they feel about the constant media attention during this effort to force military issues?
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"Hi Nigel,
Just heard your item on R4 and we would like to say how well you put the case forward and felt that it spoke volumes that the MoD refused to put anyone up in response. Other broadcasting agencies have picked it up too, have just heard it on the news on Radio 5 Live. Well done to ****** too. Following your piece we are writing directly to John Reid, let's see if he responds to us! You are a good pal to ******, and to us,
Love ****** and ******"
I am not for a second pretending that all families see it the same way. John Reid softened his line today in the glare of all this publicity. Would he have done this if we had stayed silent and watched 4 more crews go to Afg without foam? I suggest you write to MoD and demand that all Hercules are provided with foam forthwith and also to ask them why it has taken this long to make a decision.
Kind regards,
NG
Just heard your item on R4 and we would like to say how well you put the case forward and felt that it spoke volumes that the MoD refused to put anyone up in response. Other broadcasting agencies have picked it up too, have just heard it on the news on Radio 5 Live. Well done to ****** too. Following your piece we are writing directly to John Reid, let's see if he responds to us! You are a good pal to ******, and to us,
Love ****** and ******"
I am not for a second pretending that all families see it the same way. John Reid softened his line today in the glare of all this publicity. Would he have done this if we had stayed silent and watched 4 more crews go to Afg without foam? I suggest you write to MoD and demand that all Hercules are provided with foam forthwith and also to ask them why it has taken this long to make a decision.
Kind regards,
NG
Last edited by nigegilb; 3rd May 2006 at 17:24.
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Originally Posted by Well Travelled Nav
...the lack of investment in self-protection systems is widespread, seemingly based on premise of
We (the Government) can afford to lose a crew, but not afford to lose hundreds of troops.
We (the Government) can afford to lose a crew, but not afford to lose hundreds of troops.
I know that when the big knobs do their planning, they have a rough idea of what losses the public will accept, and this will vary depending on whether Wayne Rooney has broken his metatarsal, or whatever else takes the front page.
Two incidents spring to mind, but there are plenty more.
1. The Hercules Haj trips - a totally mental PR job
2. A daylight trip to Kabul in a dumb Mk3, with a 'route' crew...and Adam Ingram MP on the bunk!
Good luck to those sticking their necks out (and watch your backs!)
RIP to the XV179 boys, we won't forget you
and those out there - stay safe.
...and treat every beer and every w*nk like its your last.
SPHLC
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I am somewhat taken aback by the attitude given to a query which only had the interest of the families at heart. Bearing in mind that all these activities have started because of what happened to them, surely they should be considered.
If it is felt that no one has to give a reply to this question, does that not make you as closed to questioning as the parties you are accusing?
As I said earlier, it is right that action should be taken, however, the emotions of people left behind should also be held high on any agenda and should be considered when issues such as this are aired.
If it is felt that no one has to give a reply to this question, does that not make you as closed to questioning as the parties you are accusing?
As I said earlier, it is right that action should be taken, however, the emotions of people left behind should also be held high on any agenda and should be considered when issues such as this are aired.
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
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"however, the emotions of people left behind should also be held high on any agenda and should be considered when issues such as this are aired."
Myfanwy
I believe that Nige and Chappie, who is one of those left behind are doing exactly that. At the same time as we all feel the loss it is vital that we don't let it happen again.
Myfanwy
I believe that Nige and Chappie, who is one of those left behind are doing exactly that. At the same time as we all feel the loss it is vital that we don't let it happen again.
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C130 Explosive-Suppressant Foam
Just been listening to that 
John Reid on the Channel 4 news talking about the above. He stated that the C130's that were serving on 47 Squadron are already being fitted with the explosive-suppressant foam devices, is that true as I've not heard of them being done?
He's also quoted a figure of £50,000 per aircraft for the mod, if it costs that little it should have been done a long time ago! How can you put a price on life? Don't suppose he's bothered though, he's looking forward to a crack at home secretary soon!
Makes your blood boil!
John Reid on the Channel 4 news talking about the above. He stated that the C130's that were serving on 47 Squadron are already being fitted with the explosive-suppressant foam devices, is that true as I've not heard of them being done?He's also quoted a figure of £50,000 per aircraft for the mod, if it costs that little it should have been done a long time ago! How can you put a price on life? Don't suppose he's bothered though, he's looking forward to a crack at home secretary soon!
Makes your blood boil!