Parliamentary Questions concerning Hercules Safety
Flipster
I agree with what you say, but may I make two observations;
“RWR and Sidewinders overnight in the hangar”
There is a difference between fitting such kit in accordance with detailed instructions that someone with foresight prepared long ago, presumably underpinned by full installation design, design incorporation, testing and trials etc; and the scenario I describe which ignores the problem in the first place.
“that there was no money available, so there was no point asking”
I know you are correct and that this attitude prevails. But, the procurement system works entirely on the principle that, if you don’t ask, you don’t get. I described, in part, the process by which the operator asks. If you ask, there will always be an audit trail to the decision. Not asking invites the accusation SoS is making – that because there was no request there can be no blame at ministerial or higher MoD level. Then you start arguing about the culture created by political decsions and get bogged down......
I agree with what you say, but may I make two observations;
“RWR and Sidewinders overnight in the hangar”
There is a difference between fitting such kit in accordance with detailed instructions that someone with foresight prepared long ago, presumably underpinned by full installation design, design incorporation, testing and trials etc; and the scenario I describe which ignores the problem in the first place.
“that there was no money available, so there was no point asking”
I know you are correct and that this attitude prevails. But, the procurement system works entirely on the principle that, if you don’t ask, you don’t get. I described, in part, the process by which the operator asks. If you ask, there will always be an audit trail to the decision. Not asking invites the accusation SoS is making – that because there was no request there can be no blame at ministerial or higher MoD level. Then you start arguing about the culture created by political decsions and get bogged down......
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For what it's worth.
On 10 May 06 the Deputy Chief of Defence Logistics (DCDL) Mr Tim Flesher has invited all DLO staff to "Ask the DCDL" work related questions. His answers being published shortly afterwards. I will see if I can get a question emailed to him regarding proposals for Explosion Retarding Foam on all RAF AT and those Royal Sqn ac employed on Ops. I make no guarantees that I'll get a reply though.
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Tucumseh,
Yep spot on - that is why we DID ask and why 2 Gp did the digging. Proving it on the other hand might require some probing - but it will be possible, so there are no worries there.
I can recall the arguments of getting DIRCM and Flight Deck Armour. HQ 2 gp experts had written countless business cases for such stuff in the past - as they have for fire suppressants, I believe. All they had to do was to dig out the last one that had been refused and try again.
Eventually, people in MOD took heed of our concerns about the threat levels and coughed up - albeit very reluctantly. The procurement guys had also done their stuff and the ac went over to the US quite quickly. Although this had an impact on training and ops, I'd like to think it was worthwhile all the hard work completed by some absolute stars at Gp, HQSTC, MOD and DPA/DLO - at lower levels mind you!
So so you see, MOD is (and has always been) aware - over to you minister!
Bluntend - thanks. Nige- watch this space!
Yep spot on - that is why we DID ask and why 2 Gp did the digging. Proving it on the other hand might require some probing - but it will be possible, so there are no worries there.
I can recall the arguments of getting DIRCM and Flight Deck Armour. HQ 2 gp experts had written countless business cases for such stuff in the past - as they have for fire suppressants, I believe. All they had to do was to dig out the last one that had been refused and try again.
Eventually, people in MOD took heed of our concerns about the threat levels and coughed up - albeit very reluctantly. The procurement guys had also done their stuff and the ac went over to the US quite quickly. Although this had an impact on training and ops, I'd like to think it was worthwhile all the hard work completed by some absolute stars at Gp, HQSTC, MOD and DPA/DLO - at lower levels mind you!
So so you see, MOD is (and has always been) aware - over to you minister!
Bluntend - thanks. Nige- watch this space!
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fantaman, remember one thing john reid is a politican so everything that has comeout of his mouth is a lie. i recall a while back that a date mentioned for the fitting of foam was to be july. why ? i have no idea. maybe the wind will be in the right direction and the little leprachauns that the minister clearly sees whilst on his planet have forecast that the moon will be in the seventh quarter or something equally mad! one point i keep trying to make is that this should have been DONE ahes ago. of course, prior to the crash when requests were made. nonetheless, i lost bob 16 months ago the inquiry findings were made public 6 months ago yet we are still talking about it.
! why not shut the F*** UP Mr Reid stop pointing fingers and get it sorted now. NOT SOME AIRCRAFT SOON, ALL AIRCRAFT NOW!!! it's so simple. but no he is another who likes to court the media.
this is the way i see things guys. it may be too simplistic and may not have a place in your debate as i'm not clever enough to know what your abbrevbiations mean. feel free to agree or disagree but i would appreciate some feedback on this simple theory. it doesn't make financial sense. all the money that has been spent on the investigation, recovery of bodies, repatriation, accomodation and travel, memorial services, funerals, pensions, manpower......aircraft and training could have been used sorting out the fleet of alberts and still given you money for your busfare home and a bag of chips! as a grieving relative all i can do is ask why? why does this make more sense? why do you think that you have been very clever by saving money? why do you pride your self on the decision that as a ministry you have made? i see a decision to hang back from the fitting of explosive technology was nothing more than a gamble. rather than follow the example that was made by other forces as a result of their experiences you took a gamble as the pound signs made more of an impact than the lives that you are responsible for. it was chosen to wait and see if we would lose an RAF ac then see if you have to do something, but hope that there will not be too many on board when the INEVITABLE happens. i'm sorry mr reid you say how can you put a price on human life? well , you just have. all because people sign up to take the queens shilling it does'nt mean that they are expendable and they have forfeited their right to life. as i've said before there are risks and then there are unacceptable risks.
sorry for that rant. i'm not too proud to admit that sometimes i get a bit emotional with this. i'm upset that i do. i do not want to be seen as just the emotional bit that gets wheeled on when it suits. there is more to me than that. i want to do more to help. i feel like i'm not helping enough and i've been left frustrated by a lack of willingness by some media to take this issue and run front page full coverage with it. i find it hard to see that we get consigned to small columns deep in the paper.
i have to say that i'm also very ashamed by my recent behaviour. i have to admit to losing it big time last night and nearly threw in the towel. i have had so many problems with the computer at home. i keep trying to post a reply yet when i press submit it's lost. i tied three times and took ages as i'm not the fastest typer in the world, but to no avail. after a hard shift at the hospital interspersed with the farce of john reid then all my work lost again on the 'puter i caved in. i'm sorry if i've let you down becasue of it. there is no room for emotion and wobblies in this. i have come to another computer today to try my luck. last night i was unable to see that clearly to be able to stop myself from giving in. i can't walk away from this i know that, not till i have got all of you protected. i could'nt help my brother and the other guys and if i give in now i'll definitely be making sure their deaths are for nothing.
i will try some more tv contacts today but i have to say i'm starting to draw blanks. i will also be speaking with the MP who has offered his interest and support to see if i can't get this back into parliament. i'm working on the webpage which will work as a blog but not being very computer literate i may be a little time.
keep it going boys. i'm seeing a solicitor that nige suggested next week. i'll let you know what i'm doing then after that. as for the "comments" that james gray has said i'm forwarding that to the families as we speak. i was unable to get on the pprune on tues night as the page would not be displayed. so i'm a little behind....i wish in fact anyone who's seen me on tv knows i've dot a big behind!ha ha!
please don't worry about the families. i have been networking as has my mother and it would seem that there is nothing but support for all of you and this campaign. methinks someone is being crafty and stirring!if there are any families who are concerned and want updating please PM me or get my contact dtails. i will speak with you quite happily. we can't bring our loved ones back but we can stop more going.
! why not shut the F*** UP Mr Reid stop pointing fingers and get it sorted now. NOT SOME AIRCRAFT SOON, ALL AIRCRAFT NOW!!! it's so simple. but no he is another who likes to court the media.this is the way i see things guys. it may be too simplistic and may not have a place in your debate as i'm not clever enough to know what your abbrevbiations mean. feel free to agree or disagree but i would appreciate some feedback on this simple theory. it doesn't make financial sense. all the money that has been spent on the investigation, recovery of bodies, repatriation, accomodation and travel, memorial services, funerals, pensions, manpower......aircraft and training could have been used sorting out the fleet of alberts and still given you money for your busfare home and a bag of chips! as a grieving relative all i can do is ask why? why does this make more sense? why do you think that you have been very clever by saving money? why do you pride your self on the decision that as a ministry you have made? i see a decision to hang back from the fitting of explosive technology was nothing more than a gamble. rather than follow the example that was made by other forces as a result of their experiences you took a gamble as the pound signs made more of an impact than the lives that you are responsible for. it was chosen to wait and see if we would lose an RAF ac then see if you have to do something, but hope that there will not be too many on board when the INEVITABLE happens. i'm sorry mr reid you say how can you put a price on human life? well , you just have. all because people sign up to take the queens shilling it does'nt mean that they are expendable and they have forfeited their right to life. as i've said before there are risks and then there are unacceptable risks.
sorry for that rant. i'm not too proud to admit that sometimes i get a bit emotional with this. i'm upset that i do. i do not want to be seen as just the emotional bit that gets wheeled on when it suits. there is more to me than that. i want to do more to help. i feel like i'm not helping enough and i've been left frustrated by a lack of willingness by some media to take this issue and run front page full coverage with it. i find it hard to see that we get consigned to small columns deep in the paper.
i have to say that i'm also very ashamed by my recent behaviour. i have to admit to losing it big time last night and nearly threw in the towel. i have had so many problems with the computer at home. i keep trying to post a reply yet when i press submit it's lost. i tied three times and took ages as i'm not the fastest typer in the world, but to no avail. after a hard shift at the hospital interspersed with the farce of john reid then all my work lost again on the 'puter i caved in. i'm sorry if i've let you down becasue of it. there is no room for emotion and wobblies in this. i have come to another computer today to try my luck. last night i was unable to see that clearly to be able to stop myself from giving in. i can't walk away from this i know that, not till i have got all of you protected. i could'nt help my brother and the other guys and if i give in now i'll definitely be making sure their deaths are for nothing.
i will try some more tv contacts today but i have to say i'm starting to draw blanks. i will also be speaking with the MP who has offered his interest and support to see if i can't get this back into parliament. i'm working on the webpage which will work as a blog but not being very computer literate i may be a little time.
keep it going boys. i'm seeing a solicitor that nige suggested next week. i'll let you know what i'm doing then after that. as for the "comments" that james gray has said i'm forwarding that to the families as we speak. i was unable to get on the pprune on tues night as the page would not be displayed. so i'm a little behind....i wish in fact anyone who's seen me on tv knows i've dot a big behind!ha ha!
please don't worry about the families. i have been networking as has my mother and it would seem that there is nothing but support for all of you and this campaign. methinks someone is being crafty and stirring!if there are any families who are concerned and want updating please PM me or get my contact dtails. i will speak with you quite happily. we can't bring our loved ones back but we can stop more going.
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Chappie
Don't throw in the towel, you and nige are the ones who are binding us all together. You are doing all the hard work that will pay off soon. People like me are just nibbling at the edges e-mailing MP's etc.
Don't stop never surrender.
Reid will fall off his perch and we will all be there to gloat when it happens. Any one remember Portillo? No me neither!!
Don't throw in the towel, you and nige are the ones who are binding us all together. You are doing all the hard work that will pay off soon. People like me are just nibbling at the edges e-mailing MP's etc.
Don't stop never surrender.
Reid will fall off his perch and we will all be there to gloat when it happens. Any one remember Portillo? No me neither!!
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Explosive- Suppressant Foam..... say what? I may be ready to jump straight back into my box, BUT..... what are they talking about foam for? Inhert Gas maybe.... never worked on Hercs so could be wrong, but the Chinook had a cobra fire supression unit...... round fires into self sealing tanks, momentary pressure drop sensed, cobra system fires preventing risk of vapour explosion. Job done!
Can't imagine a can of gap filler in a tank of Jet-A1 would work?
TBK
Can't imagine a can of gap filler in a tank of Jet-A1 would work?
TBK
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Chin up Chappie,
You are integral to this and your emotional involvement is a great strength of the whole case - by showing solidarity in the face of such enormous personal pressure, you indicate that you mean business, especially as you have the families' support and I still find myself in awe of your determination.
If ever we talk in TLAs (three letter abbreviations) that you cannot fathom, please don't be afraid to ask. We, like doctors, lawyers and politicians, hide behind these TLAs in case anyone should find out that we are only human and, actually, quite simple and predictable!
As usual, you have highlighted our (techically-minded blokes) errant focus on minor details and procedures. You are absolutely right to draw our attention back to the big picture - other forces had this stuff - why not us?
ESF costs very little and is relatively simple to fit, as the Aussies have proved. A sensible taxpayer (and voter) may well ask why the MOD (who are meant to have the big picture) have not got it sorted and sooner - they have failed to provide any sensible answers yet. You are right, the timescale and the applicability of this relatively cheap modification is a big worry for me and for others, especially when you consider what our forces are presently doing.
I will back you up and repeat "ALL, NOW please".
Why the media have not picked this up and run with it, I'm not sure - probably because they are tied up with the Home Office's 'Lost Foreign Criminals Scandal'. However, I do know that the Parliamentary Defence Committee may still be asking questions. The AOC will be questioned by Nige today and there may be some fall-out from that, which the media might want to follow up, so all is not lost.
However, guys and girls, Nige and Chappie would love some more 'hard' info on the history of herc protection - it doesn't matter whom or when. Please contact them as we are all on the same side.
Keep plugging at it Chappie.
Flipster
Who was Portaloo?
You are integral to this and your emotional involvement is a great strength of the whole case - by showing solidarity in the face of such enormous personal pressure, you indicate that you mean business, especially as you have the families' support and I still find myself in awe of your determination.
If ever we talk in TLAs (three letter abbreviations) that you cannot fathom, please don't be afraid to ask. We, like doctors, lawyers and politicians, hide behind these TLAs in case anyone should find out that we are only human and, actually, quite simple and predictable!
As usual, you have highlighted our (techically-minded blokes) errant focus on minor details and procedures. You are absolutely right to draw our attention back to the big picture - other forces had this stuff - why not us?
ESF costs very little and is relatively simple to fit, as the Aussies have proved. A sensible taxpayer (and voter) may well ask why the MOD (who are meant to have the big picture) have not got it sorted and sooner - they have failed to provide any sensible answers yet. You are right, the timescale and the applicability of this relatively cheap modification is a big worry for me and for others, especially when you consider what our forces are presently doing.
I will back you up and repeat "ALL, NOW please".
Why the media have not picked this up and run with it, I'm not sure - probably because they are tied up with the Home Office's 'Lost Foreign Criminals Scandal'. However, I do know that the Parliamentary Defence Committee may still be asking questions. The AOC will be questioned by Nige today and there may be some fall-out from that, which the media might want to follow up, so all is not lost.
However, guys and girls, Nige and Chappie would love some more 'hard' info on the history of herc protection - it doesn't matter whom or when. Please contact them as we are all on the same side.
Keep plugging at it Chappie.
Flipster
Who was Portaloo?
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Economies Cost Lives
Years ago a concious decision was made that there would be no ejection seat for rear crew members in 'V' bombers. How many lives were lost as a result of that bit of 'saving'? Does anybody have statistics? I'd bet more than 100.
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Mike is right and thnaks for the links.
Cost saving cost lives yep A2 spot-on and in this case,
not much cost = 10 lives
What a waste of great people!
I'd love to know to which 'pilots' Reid spoke and what was actually said. I can't believe anyone at Lyneham didn't want foam in the their wings, so it is probably Reid's lot playing with words...again. More likely, Reid probably spoke to the cleaners when he visited Lyneham - because all the crews were away in the desert!
Anyone here prepared to comment about the 'overheard' conversation?
Cost saving cost lives yep A2 spot-on and in this case,
not much cost = 10 lives
What a waste of great people!
I'd love to know to which 'pilots' Reid spoke and what was actually said. I can't believe anyone at Lyneham didn't want foam in the their wings, so it is probably Reid's lot playing with words...again. More likely, Reid probably spoke to the cleaners when he visited Lyneham - because all the crews were away in the desert!
Anyone here prepared to comment about the 'overheard' conversation?
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FF
Good post and you are right to point that out. I would suspect that because of the pressure already exerted, the ac actually in theatre ARE as well protected as any of ours have ever been. But we have so few that if one breaks, there is not another to spare, so the pressure to use slick/dumb frames increases. For now, I would think we can't risk that and our crews are better protected in AFG than ever we were in 2002/3.
Also, I'd love to know to which 'pilots' Reid has spoken and what was actually said. I can't believe anyone at Lyneham didn't want foam in the their wings, so it is probably Reid's lot playing with words...again. More likely, Reid probably spoke to the cleaners when he visited Lyneham - because all the crews were away in the desert!
Anyone here prepared to comment about an 'overheard' conversation?
Flipster
Good post and you are right to point that out. I would suspect that because of the pressure already exerted, the ac actually in theatre ARE as well protected as any of ours have ever been. But we have so few that if one breaks, there is not another to spare, so the pressure to use slick/dumb frames increases. For now, I would think we can't risk that and our crews are better protected in AFG than ever we were in 2002/3.
Also, I'd love to know to which 'pilots' Reid has spoken and what was actually said. I can't believe anyone at Lyneham didn't want foam in the their wings, so it is probably Reid's lot playing with words...again. More likely, Reid probably spoke to the cleaners when he visited Lyneham - because all the crews were away in the desert!
Anyone here prepared to comment about an 'overheard' conversation?
Flipster
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Just watched the channel 4 clip from last night. Makes you angry to hear JR talk such utter bocks.
In summary it was not the MOD's fault, the enemy were supposed to be using MANPADs.
cks. In summary it was not the MOD's fault, the enemy were supposed to be using MANPADs.
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i know that john reid was on channel four last night but i wonder if anyone had the balls to tell him that he was on the wrong programme! correct me if i'm wrong but surely if you are going to put a play on words then countdown is the prog. you need not the news.
methinks that mrs reid will be cursing her hubby for the stained pants that are in the wash now as he is no doubt s******g himself over what he said on the radio four programme!
thanks for the support. not that ishould be getting any after my shameful inability to face up to pressure last night. feel slightly more sane this am after having slept. i'm pretty confident that i've got reid over a barrel. i'm looking forward to the solicitors meeting next week.
was in the sun this am...with clothes on i hasten to add! i was also in the local paper as well having managed to get my parents to open up. they should be in the birminham times (something like that) and stafford local paper. a few pokes were made at the disgusting way these fine men are confined to nothing more than a few paragraphs.
i have an idea that i'm trying to get voiced. if i'm allowed ( limited because of my exclusive thing i signed stupidly) i want a national to do a petition so that slips get signed and sent on to me or them asking for a vote of yes or no to foam. then and only then can a paper call what they are doing a campaign!...take note daily mail. i'll keep you posted ..again.
time to go and write some angry letters and make angry phonecalls and shout grrr alot! james gray being one of them! i don't know if this is useful but iknow someone who works on the hercs at marshalls so if you want me to contact him just ask. talking of james gray can someone please copy off the article that viv forwarded and put it around 47 squadron and the rest of lyneham so that his local election bid is foiled. i don't know if he is taking part but if one of you can go to his surgery and ask him to justify the bile that has come out of his mouth then please let me know. that man sat and had lunch with me at the repatriation and offered his asisstance and support. the same as reid at the memorial when he stated to families if there is anything i can do please ask.
catch you later. apologies for my sulk at the computer and inadequacies.
methinks that mrs reid will be cursing her hubby for the stained pants that are in the wash now as he is no doubt s******g himself over what he said on the radio four programme!
thanks for the support. not that ishould be getting any after my shameful inability to face up to pressure last night. feel slightly more sane this am after having slept. i'm pretty confident that i've got reid over a barrel. i'm looking forward to the solicitors meeting next week.
was in the sun this am...with clothes on i hasten to add! i was also in the local paper as well having managed to get my parents to open up. they should be in the birminham times (something like that) and stafford local paper. a few pokes were made at the disgusting way these fine men are confined to nothing more than a few paragraphs.
i have an idea that i'm trying to get voiced. if i'm allowed ( limited because of my exclusive thing i signed stupidly) i want a national to do a petition so that slips get signed and sent on to me or them asking for a vote of yes or no to foam. then and only then can a paper call what they are doing a campaign!...take note daily mail. i'll keep you posted ..again.
time to go and write some angry letters and make angry phonecalls and shout grrr alot! james gray being one of them! i don't know if this is useful but iknow someone who works on the hercs at marshalls so if you want me to contact him just ask. talking of james gray can someone please copy off the article that viv forwarded and put it around 47 squadron and the rest of lyneham so that his local election bid is foiled. i don't know if he is taking part but if one of you can go to his surgery and ask him to justify the bile that has come out of his mouth then please let me know. that man sat and had lunch with me at the repatriation and offered his asisstance and support. the same as reid at the memorial when he stated to families if there is anything i can do please ask.
catch you later. apologies for my sulk at the computer and inadequacies.
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I must admit I did wonder who Dr John Reid was talking to on his latest C130 adventure.Somebody should know...J or K...anyone got the 'gen'.As for blaming the SQN...well,we all know the culture of dont ask dont get,but I can imagine the chat cant you...'You AT boys are always on the want...DAS,new a/c...we only have so much money and with eurofighter and the red arrows to pay for..'
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I'm sure yesterday I heard John Reid touting a figure of £50,000 per aircraft for the Explosive-Suppressant Foam. This from yesterday's intranet.
I wish he'd do some straight talking for a change! Keep up the good work Chappie!
The cost of the work involved in fitting Explosion Suppressant Foam to the Hercules aircraft is roughly £600,000 per aircraft. This includes all the work associated with the programme
I wish he'd do some straight talking for a change! Keep up the good work Chappie!
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Those of you with a sharp wit might like to append a caption to the good Doctor's image on the caption comp thread
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cost of foam
Conservative defence spokesman Liam Fox said the cost of installing the foam was only 50,000 pounds per aircraft, on top of a one-off 275,000 pound payment for setting up the installation project.
The above was taken from an article on the Reuters web site dated 2 May
The above was taken from an article on the Reuters web site dated 2 May
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Once again a comedy written 20 years ago has an apt quote fo Mr Reid
"Politicians must be allowed to panic. They need activity. It is their substitute for achievement."
Sir Humphrey Appleby
"Politicians must be allowed to panic. They need activity. It is their substitute for achievement."
Sir Humphrey Appleby
Last edited by FormerFlake; 4th May 2006 at 16:29.