Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > Middle East
Reload this Page >

EK to Decommission 50%+ of Airbus A380, Axe 1/2 of Pilots & Cabin Crew

Middle East Many expats still flying in Knoteetingham. Regional issues can be discussed here.

EK to Decommission 50%+ of Airbus A380, Axe 1/2 of Pilots & Cabin Crew

Old 11th Jul 2020, 05:15
  #541 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Behind the picket fence
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Monarch Man
What Don said....
Im struggling to see how EK will crew the blunderbus in anything like the numbers required going forward, perhaps they have a well connected Habibi who knows more than most regarding the race for a way out of this pandemic?

14 6 you sound like a sub 18 month pup, perhaps from Latin South America or Africa..or similar, certainly not the first world based on your assumptions and comments.
You are certainly not a guest, you are a guest WORKER, slightly better paid than the taxi drivers, construction workers and Costa employees...better paid but not better thought of by the oxygen thieves in charge of you. In broad comparison, last century a certain fellow with a small amount of facial hair on his upper lip considered people not of his ideal race to be “Untermensch” in effect racially and socially inferior. This is the same view that many of the locals take towards you...your genetics along with your lack of breeding make you expendable. You would do well to remember this given many many have been before you and and have heard the tripe that individuals such as yourself post from time to time.
If you are still enamoured with how wonderful the place is...and this is all a big misunderstanding, perhaps a quick trip to a local Islamic bookstore to pick up a copy of Mein Kampf...but be quick, it’s super popular in the Arabic speaking world, and even more so in the UAE.
MM, thanks for the good laugh! You just went off on a hysterical tangent about a tyrant because I didn’t add the word WORKER behind “guest”! Oh, and then all your assumptions about my age and heritage.......it has actually made me smile for the first time since the beginning of covid.

On a serious note though, by “guest“ I merely meant we are not from this part of the world. We are only here temporarily and therefore must realise that different rules will apply to us. To believe anything else will only be awarded with disappointment.

A while back you actually made a comment about only using this place as an ATM and it got me thinking. Yes, we all come to these shores as invited guests with some form of visa......some as tourists, some as students and some as workers. At some stage during our visit, we are going to visit an ATM and in the case of us workers, we are going to withdraw our agreed upon remuneration and leave! Nothing more, nothing less.

I actually liked your analogy, so I don’t know why you want to punish me by having to read “Mein Kampf” .......you are a funny man MM!
14 6 is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2020, 05:27
  #542 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Stuttgart
Posts: 244
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I found that analogy towards the book very funny - never was brav enough to speak it out aloud - but have seen a documentary about a particular German leader and his book and was shocked by the fact that this is a best seller in the ME region till today
WB1900 is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2020, 05:29
  #543 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Dubai
Age: 55
Posts: 313
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by VThokie2
Again you have very very very little credibility.... you’ve been on these forums along with 2-3 of your compatriots for no more than 48 hours (given that information the automomatic suspicion for most of us naturally turns to the 3rd or 7th floor).Whether you agree with their opinions or not, Don, Monarch, Dropp, Fatbus and company have been here for YEARS... and they are highly respected in these circles! Much more so than you, the more insolent you are to these gentlemen the less respect you will find on here! You’re snide remark above is not a good start! Tread carefully.
I find it very poor form to accuse someone of being management just because you do not like his message. Argue the point, not the man. I will side with the novice on this one and say it. You are a free person and are welcome to judge content however you like......that is your right. The reasonable amongst us do not use join date to judge content but rather reflect on the message itself. The point that the novice is making is that there are a bunch of old hands here are often pounding their own agenda(generally how bad it is at emirates). It doesn't mean they are credible, just clamorous;

That said, I like most of what Don has to say. He is probably one of the most level-headed here. Unfortunately 146 seems to have hit a nerve even though he does have a point, one which I agree with.

I think it is disgusting and unacceptable that they are handing cancer sufferers warning letter and now redundancy letters. It is nice to see some push back against in the UK against Easyjet's plan to use sickness as a metric for it's upcoming cuts. It is totally inappropriate in a safety sensitive environment. That said, 146 makes a good point when he says that some of our colleagues actively use "pressing 2" as a method of re-arranging their roster. This is not an acceptable practice and instead of actually dealing with the culprits fleet have use their standard "lets punish everyone" approach.
Kennytheking is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2020, 05:42
  #544 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: AOG
Posts: 142
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Made me chuckle too

Originally Posted by 14 6
MM, thanks for the good laugh! You just went off on a hysterical tangent about a tyrant because I didn’t add the word WORKER behind “guest”! Oh, and then all your assumptions about my age and heritage.......it has actually made me smile for the first time since the beginning of covid.

On a serious note though, by “guest“ I merely meant we are not from this part of the world. We are only here temporarily and therefore must realise that different rules will apply to us. To believe anything else will only be awarded with disappointment.

A while back you actually made a comment about only using this place as an ATM and it got me thinking. Yes, we all come to these shores as invited guests with some form of visa......some as tourists, some as students and some as workers. At some stage during our visit, we are going to visit an ATM and in the case of us workers, we are going to withdraw our agreed upon remuneration and leave! Nothing more, nothing less.

I actually liked your analogy, so I don’t know why you want to punish me by having to read “Mein Kampf” .......you are a funny man MM!
EchoKilla is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2020, 05:45
  #545 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: AOG
Posts: 142
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts


Originally Posted by WB1900
Well - he spoke to the media
but still not to the staff
EchoKilla is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2020, 05:48
  #546 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: AOG
Posts: 142
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
TC is the accountant!

But its current situation marks a steep turnaround in the fortunes of the airline, which he said before the pandemic was "heading for one of our best years ever"

what a pathetic comment..... Need to watch the interview though - he’s just adding to the BS interview he did few days back

Originally Posted by donpizmeov
BBC News - Coronavirus: Emirates set to cut 9,000 jobs, citing pandemic
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53369463

I think the accountant got the numbers wrong in this interview. It's almost like this place is run by a bus conductor.
EchoKilla is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2020, 06:11
  #547 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: San Diego
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by 14 6
I can assure you, I have immense empathy with everyone who has been terminated as this has happened to me twice already. It makes me sick to my stomach to hear that real sick or people who have recovered from real illness are being treated like this.

However, this is not what I am talking about. I am perplexed by the fact that you keep steering the point I am making in another direction. Do you deny that people have been advocating the pressing of 2 without being sick? Over the years I have heard this “advice” many times and obviously the higher ups also. Do you really think they were just going to let it go? No, they became very sensitive to the health issue and I have seen various policies being implemented over time to discourage this practice. High flying hours, like we have been logging for the last decade brings with it real health issues. By pressing 2 without being really sick, people were adding unnecessary “data” to a data driven system. Do you really think this would not have any consequences? It is like the over prescription of antibiotics. If you take an antibiotic for a minor ailment, nothing immediately bad happens to you, but it has dire consequences for someone with a real bacterial infection somewhere down the line due to the unnecessary over usage of a good thing.

This is not muddying the waters. This is to tell healthy people to think twice before using #2 as a roster enhancement tool and allow people who are really sick the opportunity to use it as intended.

If you still do not understand, I apologise, but maybe someone else will.
maybe flying those schedules makes people unfit to fly. Fatigue and physical recovery may necessitate someone using sick time... it might look like roster enhancement, but perhaps it’s just what’s needed to stay safe.
cessnaxpilot is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2020, 06:15
  #548 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Doomadgee
Posts: 281
Received 47 Likes on 25 Posts
146 Do you deny that people have been advocating the pressing of 2 without being sick?

Of course that happened - why? Do you think it was just because they wanted to take a day off and go to the beach, no - it happened when people were left no other option after a draconian rostering system that’s was milking rosters of pilots of over 100 hours a month, denying leave to attend life events and generally self managing a broken system to mitigate fatigue. Oh the irony just 12 month ago, the A380 folk were the most productive in the company, flying over 1000 hours for the year. Pressing 2 was not a crime, it was actually permitted in the oma, 2 self certified days a calendar month. A VERY VERY SMALL MINORITY OF PILOTS ‘abused’ that system. On the first round of culls, myself included there were guys with commendation letters for no sick leave. In my case I have never failed any thing In my carreer nor been sick excessively nor was on any type of warning. 14 years in the company - and let go without any thing published from the company. Hey you defend them. There were guys let go who had failed sims in the past, or upgrades, WTF - how do yo justify that metric? Why is it do you think that the company is not releasing the metrics used for the cull decisions? It’s just like when the company denied access to the seniority list. WRT Mein Kampf, it is not a ‘punishment’ to read, it should be compulsory, same with ‘1984’, to think otherwise is very millennial of you. Oh and one final thing on this “guest’ term that gets bandied around ad nauseum, No expat is a ‘guest’ here, that’s like saying when you are in your home country and you need a plumber, you invite him/her over to your house a guest. No you are hiring them for a job and you pay them for it, you should treat them with courtesy and respect, but make no bones about it, they are not a ‘guest’.
Capn Rex Havoc is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2020, 06:22
  #549 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: earth
Posts: 1,098
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Some are mixing up different problems.


Unfair dismissal.

The dismissals themselves are no disgrace. The US business model of hire – fire always applied and that is by no means a surprise, the surprised should introspect a bit before lashing out. The parameters are very much debatable, but again, there is no surprise as to them, the ME has not adopted new procedures. There was always the mercenary aspect to the jobs around here. Empathy? Has never been around before, so why should any local business adopt it in these catastrophic times?

“It’s hard to invoke justice in redundancies. Even LIFO hits those who don’t deserve it. For all those blaming the company for their sacking, think of it, you’re basically just asking them to pick another. So much for the famous solidarity.”


A380

To quote Don: “We both know that EK had no choice other than that aeroplane” and Dropp: “groteskly inefficient device” just shows the spectrum of interpretation as to the 380.

EK was not coerced to buy the 380, many people inside the industry (may I include myself) said from the very first moment that it would bite its owners back in the proverbial at the slightest crisis, as it might be efficient when full, but (maybe not exactly groteskly, but close to) inefficient when not.

Its appeal led too many wanting to fly it and some arrogant managers thinking they exclusively can beat physics. Just look at AARs trumpian denial of reality when pretending to get back up to 70% of 380s by December! Now both are stuck with it. One sided dismissals were always on the table due to cost.

That companies in decimating crews give preference to locals is nothing but normal. Imagine BA or LH sacking locals and keeping foreigners ….. would’t go down well with your MP, would it? Safety aspect in that? Was never on the table, even before Covid.

Comparing other employees with pilots

You will never be able to truly compare these different employee categories. In trying, there are only traps around the words. Pilots lose their practicing rights within a much shorter time as most others. Their license is under more scrutiny and limitations when crossing any boundary.

We can empathize with fellow employees, but should refrain from cross-referencing.


Handlers

Be careful. One can change handler overnight to avoid retribution, or when changing views.

I respect long time contributors, but some new contributions as well.

glofish is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2020, 06:27
  #550 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Behind the picket fence
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Kennytheking
I find it very poor form to accuse someone of being management just because you do not like his message. Argue the point, not the man. I will side with the novice on this one and say it. You are a free person and are welcome to judge content however you like......that is your right. The reasonable amongst us do not use join date to judge content but rather reflect on the message itself. The point that the novice is making is that there are a bunch of old hands here are often pounding their own agenda(generally how bad it is at emirates). It doesn't mean they are credible, just clamorous;

That said, I like most of what Don has to say. He is probably one of the most level-headed here. Unfortunately 146 seems to have hit a nerve even though he does have a point, one which I agree with.

I think it is disgusting and unacceptable that they are handing cancer sufferers warning letter and now redundancy letters. It is nice to see some push back against in the UK against Easyjet's plan to use sickness as a metric for it's upcoming cuts. It is totally inappropriate in a safety sensitive environment. That said, 146 makes a good point when he says that some of our colleagues actively use "pressing 2" as a method of re-arranging their roster. This is not an acceptable practice and instead of actually dealing with the culprits fleet have use their standard "lets punish everyone" approach.
Hi Kenny, reading your post is like breathing cold mountain air......refreshing!

Thanks for your last point regarding “let’s punish everyone “. I was going to mention it as well but got distracted by the task MM had in mind for me. We have seen this so often, someone pitches up at the sim in jock strap and flip-flops......and now all of us have to wear uniform! It is the same with the health issue! To deal with this liability, they deploy the old, well used tactic of not analysing individual cases, but rather to tar everyone with the same brush. It is part of the fear culture and the very dangerous consequence is that sick people in the future are going to be reluctant to report unfit for duty.

I also agree on the credibility point you are making. Credibility is not determined by the length of time you have been spouting bs on a particular forum. It only takes one post which turns out accurate to gain credibility. (I can hear Rex already.....yes, but it is not 40%! Ok, how about 30%? Does that help anyone?) Anyway, I also used to like the Don’s older posts, but recently seems to have gone off the rails. It is understandable though......the last 6 months have rattled even the strongest amongst us!
14 6 is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2020, 07:02
  #551 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Dubai
Age: 55
Posts: 313
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by glofish

That companies in decimating crews give preference to locals is nothing but normal. Imagine BA or LH sacking locals and keeping foreigners ….. would’t go down well with your MP, would it?
That is the truth.

It is illegal according to UAE law to make a local redundant whilst keeping an expat employed in the same role. Not sure why we are even discussing it............
Kennytheking is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2020, 07:15
  #552 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Behind the picket fence
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Capn Rex Havoc
146 Do you deny that people have been advocating the pressing of 2 without being sick?

Of course that happened - why? Do you think it was just because they wanted to take a day off and go to the beach, no - it happened when people were left no other option after a draconian rostering system that’s was milking rosters of pilots of over 100 hours a month, denying leave to attend life events and generally self managing a broken system to mitigate fatigue. Oh the irony just 12 month ago, the A380 folk were the most productive in the company, flying over 1000 hours for the year. Pressing 2 was not a crime, it was actually permitted in the oma, 2 self certified days a calendar month. A VERY VERY SMALL MINORITY OF PILOTS ‘abused’ that system. On the first round of culls, myself included there were guys with commendation letters for no sick leave. In my case I have never failed any thing In my carreer nor been sick excessively nor was on any type of warning. 14 years in the company - and let go without any thing published from the company. Hey you defend them. There were guys let go who had failed sims in the past, or upgrades, WTF - how do yo justify that metric? Why is it do you think that the company is not releasing the metrics used for the cull decisions? It’s just like when the company denied access to the seniority list. WRT Mein Kampf, it is not a ‘punishment’ to read, it should be compulsory, same with ‘1984’, to think otherwise is very millennial of you. Oh and one final thing on this “guest’ term that gets bandied around ad nauseum, No expat is a ‘guest’ here, that’s like saying when you are in your home country and you need a plumber, you invite him/her over to your house a guest. No you are hiring them for a job and you pay them for it, you should treat them with courtesy and respect, but make no bones about it, they are not a ‘guest’.
Here we go again......”VERY VERY SMALL MINORITY OF PILOTS”! How do you know the number? Do you have a list? I have heard many talk about this over the years! Granted, it could only have been through away lines, but nether the less it found the way to people’s ears. Just because you say that you have not abused the system, does not negate the fact that others have. We were all flying heavy rosters, what makes you think that by pressing 2 you are not going to cause more misery in some other poor colleague’s life? Going to KBL is a good example. No one is going to avoid it in the long run. What do you think is the more considerate option? Seeing it on your roster and having ample time to prepare mentally and physically for it or letting the poor bloke on a 30min call out deal with it on your behalf? I am not defending the company at all, I am asking fellow pilots to stop with a practice which is hurting others. Enough said on this topic now.

Regarding you plumber story.......that is the worst example anyone could have come up with. A plumber will enter my house on one condition only and that is upon my explicit invitation to do so. Any other way would be considered “breaking and entering”! He will comply with every single house rule I have, starting with leaving his muddy boots outside! I will greet him with friendliness and respect (just like my hosts here have done with me) and afterwards pay him the agreed upon fee. Should this guest now flop down on my couch and ask my wife for a “cuppa”, he will be shown the door very quickly. See how this works?
14 6 is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2020, 07:29
  #553 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Doomadgee
Posts: 281
Received 47 Likes on 25 Posts
Glo- no one has said anything about not keeping Locals employed.
146 -
I can assure you, I have immense empathy with everyone who has been terminated as this has happened to me twice already.
Here is the fundamental difference that makes this whole UAE situation so untenable - When you were terminated twice before - I assume that was in your home country. Tis a verrrrrrry big difference to be terminated thousands of miles away in a foreign country after making here your home for decades. Kids have to be uprooted from school, families uprooted from homes, cars sold, etc. DEVASTATING. In your home country if you are made redundant, you can go on some sort of social benefit, your kids can stay in school, and you can stay in your home. When Middle East airlines hire expats, they do it to financially benefit their country, using the expertise that their home country cannot supply, expats are an essential service. So when they go through a rocky patch - they should have exercised EVERY OTHER avenue prior to going down the redundancy path. Period. I'm sorry, but the Bus Conductor's actions may well have just destroyed the airline.
Capn Rex Havoc is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2020, 08:00
  #554 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Behind the picket fence
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Once in my own country and you are right, it was quite manageable. The second time, unfortunately, was in a country very far away, where the luxury of speaking English to someone and be understood was a rare commodity. The 9 months prior to our termination date were characterised by silence and then denials from top management. We all suffered from disbelief, which quickly turned into anger and finally, after we realised that the pension fund never existed, it turned into dispair. The breakthrough for my family came the moment we realised that we were mere guests in a foreign country, depending upon the goodwill of our hosts. We could not demand anything (Not even the report cards of my 2 school going children. You see, we could not pay the astronomical, final school fees with zero salary!) Even our tickets home were cancelled 24h prior to departure. Eventually, we were able to fly due to a charitable act from the same CEO who fired us.

This current unfair treatment is not new to me, but I said it then and now again......realise where you are and that you are only here because your host is allowing it. There are no demands to be made. Granted, many people have not lived my experience, so first time around is a bit of a shock.

In defence of the company (which doesn’t mean I think what is happening, is remotely acceptable), it appears as though the termination process is not as harsh as was dished out in the example quoted above. Devastating none the less!

Last edited by 14 6; 11th Jul 2020 at 08:33.
14 6 is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2020, 08:56
  #555 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Behind the picket fence
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by donpizmeov
We both know that EK had no choice other than that aeroplane.
Just wondering, why don’t QR and the guys down the road (combined) not have 115 parked? Same geographical location! Maybe because the other 2 have natural resources?

I think they had a choice, but made the wrong one. About 4 years ago I was rostered to attend a forum and personally heard that admission from the horse’s mouth.
14 6 is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2020, 09:15
  #556 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: New York
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Kennytheking
I find it very poor form to accuse someone of being management just because you do not like his message. Argue the point, not the man. I will side with the novice on this one and say it. You are a free person and are welcome to judge content however you like......that is your right. The reasonable amongst us do not use join date to judge content but rather reflect on the message itself. The point that the novice is making is that there are a bunch of old hands here are often pounding their own agenda(generally how bad it is at emirates). It doesn't mean they are credible, just clamorous;

That said, I like most of what Don has to say. He is probably one of the most level-headed here. Unfortunately 146 seems to have hit a nerve even though he does have a point, one which I agree with.

I think it is disgusting and unacceptable that they are handing cancer sufferers warning letter and now redundancy letters. It is nice to see some push back against in the UK against Easyjet's plan to use sickness as a metric for it's upcoming cuts. It is totally inappropriate in a safety sensitive environment. That said, 146 makes a good point when he says that some of our colleagues actively use "pressing 2" as a method of re-arranging their roster. This is not an acceptable practice and instead of actually dealing with the culprits fleet have use their standard "lets punish everyone" approach.

This was in direct response to Don being dismissed as a “boomer” by someone that just joined literally yesterday! I find that very poor form in a professional pilots’ forum!

Last edited by VThokie2; 11th Jul 2020 at 09:32.
VThokie2 is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2020, 09:25
  #557 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: overthere
Posts: 3,040
Received 26 Likes on 10 Posts
Originally Posted by VThokie2
This was in direct response to those with more experienced like Don being dismissed as a “boomer” by someone that just joined literally yesterday! I find that very poor form in a professional pilots’ forum.
It was a fair cop really. I did state Millennial first.
donpizmeov is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2020, 09:45
  #558 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Behind the picket fence
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by VThokie2
This was in direct response to Don being dismissed as a “boomer” by someone that just joined literally yesterday! I find that very poor form in a professional pilots’ forum!
So, one’s PP joining date now determines whether you are a boomer or a millennial? Very poor deductive skills. It merely means that he/she has decided to post under that name for the first time. As someone has mentioned earlier, people on the internet are constantly changing call signs and pretending to be somebody else.
14 6 is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2020, 10:01
  #559 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: New York
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by 14 6
So, one’s PP joining date now determines whether you are a boomer or a millennial? Very poor deductive skills. It merely means that he/she has decided to post under that name for the first time. As someone has mentioned earlier, people on the internet are constantly changing call signs and pretending to be somebody else.
Nope.....that is not what I implied at all.

Last edited by VThokie2; 11th Jul 2020 at 10:21.
VThokie2 is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2020, 10:13
  #560 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Behind the picket fence
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
So what are you implying? It appears you are saying it is poor form to call someone a boomer after only one day since making a first post with a certain call sign.
14 6 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.