Flight deck positions at FlyDubai Master Thread - Merged
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No party for me I'm on a night flight....
Right so we can knock this argument on the head that no one gets 22 days off??
I'm not making this stuff up, I wish I was!
You're saying you should be rewarded for longevity? It's a 5 year old airline for goodness sake. That's hilarious!
As I mentioned, I am not looking for 'dec's who come off the streets' as you so eloquently put it, to get better rosters then you 'old timers' who have been here for 5 years or so. I am asking for it to be fair. We are all out here, away from home trying to better our family or social lives. So why should you get to be off for 22 days to spend with your family and or even commute. While others slave away in the deepest darkest of nights dat after day? Why because you've been here for 2 years longer then the next guy? Give me a break.
You just sound very defensive and almost a little fearful of losing this system that is really looking after a small number of you.. So stop waving your rosters around the crew room bragging about how good it is and spare a thought for the poor sod and who's just come in from another night flight.
22 days off, I mean seriously.....
Right so we can knock this argument on the head that no one gets 22 days off??
I'm not making this stuff up, I wish I was!
You're saying you should be rewarded for longevity? It's a 5 year old airline for goodness sake. That's hilarious!
As I mentioned, I am not looking for 'dec's who come off the streets' as you so eloquently put it, to get better rosters then you 'old timers' who have been here for 5 years or so. I am asking for it to be fair. We are all out here, away from home trying to better our family or social lives. So why should you get to be off for 22 days to spend with your family and or even commute. While others slave away in the deepest darkest of nights dat after day? Why because you've been here for 2 years longer then the next guy? Give me a break.
You just sound very defensive and almost a little fearful of losing this system that is really looking after a small number of you.. So stop waving your rosters around the crew room bragging about how good it is and spare a thought for the poor sod and who's just come in from another night flight.
22 days off, I mean seriously.....
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Cycle of life
Fliion
So let me get this right. My advocating that our seniority based system is fair means that I support everything that happens in a country that is not a democracy, that I cannot vote in, that I can currently never become permanently resident in and that coincidentally you also live in?
From the information I have to hand any of the 3 million expats living in Dubai, including yourself are therefore party to the same crime.
Suggest you may want to go to the corner and have a word with yourself old chap.
Back to the thread VFR
Seniority is a very simple and very fair concept. 5 yrs or 50 yrs old is irrelevant as if someone joins one week before you they have more time in the airline than you and vice versa. I am not defensive, i simply think it fair! If the company change the system then that is their right. Whatever the system as long as it is fair then that is what matters. I do not think that someone who made a commitment to come here X years ago should be treated the same as someone who arrives today. I also think a system where everyone shares the same workload with no possibility of improvement is cloud cuckoo land as there is no incentive to stay loyal to the airline.
Service should be rewarded somehow or we become mere wage slaves waiting for another airline to offer better Ts and Cs. Fliion et al ( see the EK BONDING THREAD) would have us believe that we are all simply mercenaries who go to whomever gives the best package. Well guess what the mgt have found a way to reward you without increasing the budget. How about that!
No firm I ever joined gave us school holidays, weekends, religious holidays OFF immediately normally when you are new you are at the bottom of the leave pile and work pile no different to life 30 years ago in school.
Lunch bell goes off, 6 th formers go and eat whatever they fancy. Then 5 bells signals the 5 th form and so on until the 1 st formers go in ten minutes before the end of lunch and have whatsoever is left. The 1st form know that they the smallest and youngest get the worst or unwanted choices as that is their place but guess what the next year they move to the 2nd form and so on until they about to go to uni in 6 th form age 18 are the top of there food chain. Guess what preparation for real life!
And funny old thing they then go to university where they are bottom of the pile again as they are freshers and move on up the pile until they are in final year and are seniors again more perks!
Then yet another institution do you think soldiers sailors and airmen are treated the same way in basic training that they are treated after years of service.
Seniority has its privileges, so it has been, so it should be and long may it continue to be!
So let me get this right. My advocating that our seniority based system is fair means that I support everything that happens in a country that is not a democracy, that I cannot vote in, that I can currently never become permanently resident in and that coincidentally you also live in?
From the information I have to hand any of the 3 million expats living in Dubai, including yourself are therefore party to the same crime.
Suggest you may want to go to the corner and have a word with yourself old chap.
Back to the thread VFR
Seniority is a very simple and very fair concept. 5 yrs or 50 yrs old is irrelevant as if someone joins one week before you they have more time in the airline than you and vice versa. I am not defensive, i simply think it fair! If the company change the system then that is their right. Whatever the system as long as it is fair then that is what matters. I do not think that someone who made a commitment to come here X years ago should be treated the same as someone who arrives today. I also think a system where everyone shares the same workload with no possibility of improvement is cloud cuckoo land as there is no incentive to stay loyal to the airline.
Service should be rewarded somehow or we become mere wage slaves waiting for another airline to offer better Ts and Cs. Fliion et al ( see the EK BONDING THREAD) would have us believe that we are all simply mercenaries who go to whomever gives the best package. Well guess what the mgt have found a way to reward you without increasing the budget. How about that!
No firm I ever joined gave us school holidays, weekends, religious holidays OFF immediately normally when you are new you are at the bottom of the leave pile and work pile no different to life 30 years ago in school.
Lunch bell goes off, 6 th formers go and eat whatever they fancy. Then 5 bells signals the 5 th form and so on until the 1 st formers go in ten minutes before the end of lunch and have whatsoever is left. The 1st form know that they the smallest and youngest get the worst or unwanted choices as that is their place but guess what the next year they move to the 2nd form and so on until they about to go to uni in 6 th form age 18 are the top of there food chain. Guess what preparation for real life!
And funny old thing they then go to university where they are bottom of the pile again as they are freshers and move on up the pile until they are in final year and are seniors again more perks!
Then yet another institution do you think soldiers sailors and airmen are treated the same way in basic training that they are treated after years of service.
Seniority has its privileges, so it has been, so it should be and long may it continue to be!
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flilion: not sure quite what has your post got to do with price of fish and / or FZ and / or the subject matter in hand? Though, in response, in many respects the details within the article you've linked to, seem little different to the situation wrt women's prisons in (say) the UK. Basically, "If you can't do the time, then don't do the crime!", and especially so if you're the mother to young children.
vfr on top: One would imagine that you wear Serengeti sunglasses, i.e. the ones with those nice rose tinted lenses? Fwiw, I too have a pair, but I use mine for keeping the desert sun out of my eyes. It's for sure that you've not been here long enough to know the full history of it all (indeed, as far as one can tell, you've not even been in airline aviation all that long, have you?!), but, suffice to say, PBS was always on the cards; e.g. even being muted for implementation prior to day 1, wherein I can still recall KennyG telling us that PBS would be implemented (that was during our interview, back in Oct 2008, i.e. back when you, vfr, were still looking for your first airline job). That said, the subsequent reason for delay in its implementation was put down to a need to achieve a sort of "critical mass" in terms of aircraft & crew numbers (yes, that was the phrase that was used; uhm, what an amazing memory I have!). So, vfr, I suspect a few more decades in airline aviation will eventually tarnish your tinted glasses, just as it has done for most of us who've been in this business a LOT longer than you!
nakbin330: It will last, indeed just as much as the same Seniority based systems have lasted in all those USA airlines (i.e. where our management hail from), and likewise the same exact same seniority based systems in the likes of BA, Lufthansa, etc, have lasted... the flying program is being fully covered (we even have people on Standby, forsooth!) and, if there's any shortfall in the hours being achieved by the aircrew, that's more a function of the Commercial Dept than anything to do with Rostering. Just by doing some simple maths, maths which I'm sure even you can understand (albeit that one assumes that you also understand the rules defined with Part 'A' / Section 7 ?), it goes like this: If someone were to have 22 days off, in a month with 30 days = 8 days available to fly various routes. If those routes have a total block time, per duty, of 10½ hours (and we do indeed have flights that will provide that level, or more, of block hours per duty) then, hey presto, you've done 85 block hours... which, I'm sure you'll appreciate, is the block-hour figure that the system likes to roster us to per month, because that then ties in nicely with the 900 blocks hours limit per annum (what with accounting for annual leave, sim sessions, recurrent ground school, etc). It's not exactly f'ing rocket science, is it ?!
Fwiw, I too will not be attending this evenings 'office' soirée, because 1) I'm flying tomorrow, and 2) the date of this jaunt is usually broadcast so late in the proceedings that, as air-crew, it's very hard to plan for in advance (even with a high seniority number
), and 3) the best party was the first one, i.e. the BBQ we had on the roof of the Marriott = legend!... and anything else would pale into insignificance in comparison, as those whom were there will surely testify! 
vfr on top: One would imagine that you wear Serengeti sunglasses, i.e. the ones with those nice rose tinted lenses? Fwiw, I too have a pair, but I use mine for keeping the desert sun out of my eyes. It's for sure that you've not been here long enough to know the full history of it all (indeed, as far as one can tell, you've not even been in airline aviation all that long, have you?!), but, suffice to say, PBS was always on the cards; e.g. even being muted for implementation prior to day 1, wherein I can still recall KennyG telling us that PBS would be implemented (that was during our interview, back in Oct 2008, i.e. back when you, vfr, were still looking for your first airline job). That said, the subsequent reason for delay in its implementation was put down to a need to achieve a sort of "critical mass" in terms of aircraft & crew numbers (yes, that was the phrase that was used; uhm, what an amazing memory I have!). So, vfr, I suspect a few more decades in airline aviation will eventually tarnish your tinted glasses, just as it has done for most of us who've been in this business a LOT longer than you!
nakbin330: It will last, indeed just as much as the same Seniority based systems have lasted in all those USA airlines (i.e. where our management hail from), and likewise the same exact same seniority based systems in the likes of BA, Lufthansa, etc, have lasted... the flying program is being fully covered (we even have people on Standby, forsooth!) and, if there's any shortfall in the hours being achieved by the aircrew, that's more a function of the Commercial Dept than anything to do with Rostering. Just by doing some simple maths, maths which I'm sure even you can understand (albeit that one assumes that you also understand the rules defined with Part 'A' / Section 7 ?), it goes like this: If someone were to have 22 days off, in a month with 30 days = 8 days available to fly various routes. If those routes have a total block time, per duty, of 10½ hours (and we do indeed have flights that will provide that level, or more, of block hours per duty) then, hey presto, you've done 85 block hours... which, I'm sure you'll appreciate, is the block-hour figure that the system likes to roster us to per month, because that then ties in nicely with the 900 blocks hours limit per annum (what with accounting for annual leave, sim sessions, recurrent ground school, etc). It's not exactly f'ing rocket science, is it ?!
Fwiw, I too will not be attending this evenings 'office' soirée, because 1) I'm flying tomorrow, and 2) the date of this jaunt is usually broadcast so late in the proceedings that, as air-crew, it's very hard to plan for in advance (even with a high seniority number
), and 3) the best party was the first one, i.e. the BBQ we had on the roof of the Marriott = legend!... and anything else would pale into insignificance in comparison, as those whom were there will surely testify!
Last edited by Old King Coal; 5th Jun 2014 at 14:20. Reason: To explain the bleedin' obvious to nakbin330
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Yes, seriously
You want a more fair system? Please describe how it would work? What is fair to some might not be fair to the rest. How do you make it more fair and exclude the DECs as you seem to want? When does someone start to be important enough to have a "privileged roster" at a company? Is it after probation, 1 year, 2 years, or maybe 4 years of service??? Seniority is pretty straightforward to understand, at least for most. As previously pointed out, our vacation bidding is a socialist system. Everyone should enjoy getting some good choice of leave that your true seniority probably can't hold.
Here is why the company can't return to the fair allocation system used previously: ASR's regarding fatigue. If you look at ASRs prior to PBS implementation there were a significant number dedicated to fatigue related issues with rosters every month, probably around 20% if I were to hazard a guess. After looking over the last two months batches of ASRs, guess how many ASRs mentioned fatigue. Come on, take a guess! ZERO! Not a single ASR mentioning fatigue. What that says is that the system is astoundingly better than what we lived under for the last 4+ years. But please, go to the CP meetings, schedule time with the COO and tell them they are wrong and this system doesn't work. Please tell them that the 5 year guys who started the airline, did proving runs, sat around on 15 standbys every month during the first year have not earned ANYTHING. Maybe you should enlist the help of crew planning in your quest for a fair system
The original pilots are not special, seriously, just a bunch of nice average guys like most at this company. The difference is they were hired first! Everyone comes after them, it's called SENIORITY! At this company when an FO upgrades they get to keep their place on the master list. Do you have any idea how much that torques off the DECs? Maybe the DECs will protest enough to change that system to make it more fair?? You can't change one aspect and not expect it to affect another aspect of the system. Example: remember that genius survey to split vacation bidding into two parts during the year? Sounded great until the full plan was made clear that we would have to bid 3 weeks before the end of June and 3 week post June!
Disclaimer:
I like our vacation bidding system just the way it is.
FOs have earned their place on the seniority list and it doesn't matter what seat you sit in, date of hire is date of hire.
PBS IS AWESOME!
You want a more fair system? Please describe how it would work? What is fair to some might not be fair to the rest. How do you make it more fair and exclude the DECs as you seem to want? When does someone start to be important enough to have a "privileged roster" at a company? Is it after probation, 1 year, 2 years, or maybe 4 years of service??? Seniority is pretty straightforward to understand, at least for most. As previously pointed out, our vacation bidding is a socialist system. Everyone should enjoy getting some good choice of leave that your true seniority probably can't hold.
Here is why the company can't return to the fair allocation system used previously: ASR's regarding fatigue. If you look at ASRs prior to PBS implementation there were a significant number dedicated to fatigue related issues with rosters every month, probably around 20% if I were to hazard a guess. After looking over the last two months batches of ASRs, guess how many ASRs mentioned fatigue. Come on, take a guess! ZERO! Not a single ASR mentioning fatigue. What that says is that the system is astoundingly better than what we lived under for the last 4+ years. But please, go to the CP meetings, schedule time with the COO and tell them they are wrong and this system doesn't work. Please tell them that the 5 year guys who started the airline, did proving runs, sat around on 15 standbys every month during the first year have not earned ANYTHING. Maybe you should enlist the help of crew planning in your quest for a fair system
The original pilots are not special, seriously, just a bunch of nice average guys like most at this company. The difference is they were hired first! Everyone comes after them, it's called SENIORITY! At this company when an FO upgrades they get to keep their place on the master list. Do you have any idea how much that torques off the DECs? Maybe the DECs will protest enough to change that system to make it more fair?? You can't change one aspect and not expect it to affect another aspect of the system. Example: remember that genius survey to split vacation bidding into two parts during the year? Sounded great until the full plan was made clear that we would have to bid 3 weeks before the end of June and 3 week post June!Disclaimer:
I like our vacation bidding system just the way it is.
FOs have earned their place on the seniority list and it doesn't matter what seat you sit in, date of hire is date of hire.
PBS IS AWESOME!
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PBS being run by seniority whether you love it or hate it is in my mind here to stay.
Even if you are really junior and you have a not so good schedule, isn't it great to know that just a couple of years if you put the time in and creep slowly up the ladder then you too will be able to enjoy far more flexibility about where you fly, whats days etc. Seems like a great incentive to stay to me!
VFR, sure you'll be bleating later about how its OK for everyone else to be at the party but you'll be the only one keeping the company flying tonight! Do one more year and then come and tell us how your roster has changed for the much much better. If you leave in that time then do please also tell us how you have joined another airline and even if it does have PBS, you'll either be at the bottom and have to climb again or it'll be rolling seniority like EK and you'll NEVER get away from all those duties that you would hope to leave behind.
Truly it was! Those Brazilian meats
, still salivating at the thought of those!! Have looked at the pictures way back when we were young, keen and all smiles! What a difference five years makes, haha!
To be fair King, this was the first year they brought out the date of the party before the PBS/RDO cut off date so was able to plan this year.
Even if you are really junior and you have a not so good schedule, isn't it great to know that just a couple of years if you put the time in and creep slowly up the ladder then you too will be able to enjoy far more flexibility about where you fly, whats days etc. Seems like a great incentive to stay to me!
VFR, sure you'll be bleating later about how its OK for everyone else to be at the party but you'll be the only one keeping the company flying tonight! Do one more year and then come and tell us how your roster has changed for the much much better. If you leave in that time then do please also tell us how you have joined another airline and even if it does have PBS, you'll either be at the bottom and have to climb again or it'll be rolling seniority like EK and you'll NEVER get away from all those duties that you would hope to leave behind.
the best party was the first one, i.e. the BBQ we had on the roof of the Marriott = legend!... and anything else would pale into insignificance in comparison, as those whom were there will surely testify!
, still salivating at the thought of those!! Have looked at the pictures way back when we were young, keen and all smiles! What a difference five years makes, haha!To be fair King, this was the first year they brought out the date of the party before the PBS/RDO cut off date so was able to plan this year.
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We are talking about to be senior in a company 5 years old and having people with a big difference in roster with just 2 years difference in seniority.
Results= you can fly with Cpt called on stby for 4 sector and telling you "this is just a waste of time"
I agree that's the cheapest way to refrein senior to leave the company and we are talking about nothing.
For me its more importante that you guys pay attention during all your days off and dont slip coming out from your chilled pool......if you need to stay out of work for any sick reason after 45 days ....i m sure you know what will happen to your salary......
Results= you can fly with Cpt called on stby for 4 sector and telling you "this is just a waste of time"
I agree that's the cheapest way to refrein senior to leave the company and we are talking about nothing.
For me its more importante that you guys pay attention during all your days off and dont slip coming out from your chilled pool......if you need to stay out of work for any sick reason after 45 days ....i m sure you know what will happen to your salary......
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The employees of FZ work for the same people that own, operate and pay for that prison...so when I come across perky, giddy exuberance ...I raise an eyebrow.
f.
ps. BA/FR etc do not own & operate HMs prisons.
f.
ps. BA/FR etc do not own & operate HMs prisons.
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Sure fliion. Maybe it's better to follow the church's example 
Mass grave of 796 babies found in septic tank at Catholic orphanage in Tuam, Galway - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk
Every society or period in time has its sins......
Mass grave of 796 babies found in septic tank at Catholic orphanage in Tuam, Galway - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk
Every society or period in time has its sins......
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In the UK they say "prison doesn't work"..... I've always believed thet prison does work......it's releasing people early that doesn't work........and prison certainly works out here!!
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If you want to hang your hat on that..... Looks like a clean facility for people who broke the law and put their (unborn) children in bad spot. Blame the country and not put the responsibility on the individual is your motto? Not very American if you ask me 
Anyway, you don't work here so please stop rubbernecking. You are just causing a traffic jam.......
Anyway, you don't work here so please stop rubbernecking. You are just causing a traffic jam.......
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Extraordinary - defending the long term incarceration of an innocent child over compassionately releasing and deporting the mother - tells me the FZ indoctrination program is fine tuned...
...right, back to the big boys thread.
f.
...right, back to the big boys thread.
f.
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Since there's about five families and they're all related or inter-related and own everything, I guess we ALL work for the people who own and operate Everything. Why pick on one prison?
And who cares anyway - I'm more worked up about FD getting 22 days off a month and we're slaving away. A good start would be FD doing ALL OMDB's night turn-arounds especially india. Yeah....
All in favour?
And who cares anyway - I'm more worked up about FD getting 22 days off a month and we're slaving away. A good start would be FD doing ALL OMDB's night turn-arounds especially india. Yeah....
All in favour?
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As someone mentioned recently in this moribund Middle East section: "nothing makes an Emirates pilot more unhappy than a happy Emirates pilot." I think that can be expanded to "...and a happy FlyDubai pilot will put the Emirates pilot into counselling for the foreseeable"
Many friends very happy at FZ, especially with PBS. Lucky barstewards with their 80 hours in 8 days!
Many friends very happy at FZ, especially with PBS. Lucky barstewards with their 80 hours in 8 days!
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OKC I would have a lot more respect for you and your post if you could have refrained from resorting to insults. I've been in the airlines for 14 years and I have still managed to keep my rose tinted glasses. I call it positivity. Something that your miserable posts seem to lack. (whinge whinge whinge)
Ok I get it. The select few of you on this part time roster are happy. I know. I understand. Why wouldn't you be. I'm not arguing with that.
My issue is this. A handful of you are happy. We know that. But I am under the impression that a LOT of people are not. You are arguing that PBS is amazing. Yes it is, for YOU. But if the majority are unhappy with it and think it is unfair, would you like it changed to something that helps the WHOLE workforce and divides the flying to all of the crew? When I say fairer why not let us have a rolling bid system or something to that effect?
So back to my question, if the complaints are coming from the rest of the crew that they are tired, stressed, fatigued, it's dangerous etc etc (the same complaints you guys had only 7 months ago) would you give up your part time roster to help your colleagues? Would you vote that an equal system should be put in place?
Or 'I'm alright jack'
Judging by the angry responses above unfortunately I believe I know the answer already
My gripe is not with seniority. Reward longevity and loyalty yes. But at what cost? Dividing the crew up in to groups that are so exhausted verses a crew that has so much time off they don't know what to do with themselves is a bit overkill to the seniority system.
Ok I get it. The select few of you on this part time roster are happy. I know. I understand. Why wouldn't you be. I'm not arguing with that.
My issue is this. A handful of you are happy. We know that. But I am under the impression that a LOT of people are not. You are arguing that PBS is amazing. Yes it is, for YOU. But if the majority are unhappy with it and think it is unfair, would you like it changed to something that helps the WHOLE workforce and divides the flying to all of the crew? When I say fairer why not let us have a rolling bid system or something to that effect?
So back to my question, if the complaints are coming from the rest of the crew that they are tired, stressed, fatigued, it's dangerous etc etc (the same complaints you guys had only 7 months ago) would you give up your part time roster to help your colleagues? Would you vote that an equal system should be put in place?
Or 'I'm alright jack'
Judging by the angry responses above unfortunately I believe I know the answer already
My gripe is not with seniority. Reward longevity and loyalty yes. But at what cost? Dividing the crew up in to groups that are so exhausted verses a crew that has so much time off they don't know what to do with themselves is a bit overkill to the seniority system.