Enough With The Scab Rehetoric!!
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Ready or not ready?
Not sure that was the whole truth there Zoolander re; what ALPA allegedly said about not being ready.
Hong Kong has little or no labour protection so one has to tread very carefully. CX managment have been taking constant advantage of that fact in their inimitable way. The CX spin machine has to be grabbed by the balls to get a reasonable hearing in this pro business town and that is beginning to happen now. The SCMP are fed up with the persistant Cathay lies already.
They are ex colonial industrial thugs of the worst kind and they regard pilots as a necessary evil, trust me on that. We as a profession are loathed and dispised in CX.
If you are a prospective new recruit, you should be considering Emirates. The longstanding industrial hatred within this company, the marginal higher pay and higher cost of living in HK makes Dubai very attractive.
Do you really want to work for a company that can fire you for 'no particular reason'? We are currently operating on no particular contract that can be changed and eroded overnight without notice by those damn beancounters. Try and imagine it 10 years down the road when they are still looking for their bonuses.
Until this is resolved, it is NOT a career airline. Do not kid yourselves as they do.
However, there is more than one way to skin cat and much effort is going on behind the scenes bring their 'management methods' to the notice of the rest of the world. And managers come and go. (A little one with a big title is due to go soon). When this is finally over, there will be few of the protaganists and architects of this dispute left in CX management to worry about.
After the show on the recent vote to put the current AOA Prez back in the driving seat, i believe the membership are now ready for anything Zoolander.
On a personal note, it is a great privelege to write some home truths to CX's minor managers tasked with posing as pilots and writing their propaganda on this site. I know that it really chaps their asses. You all seem very uneasy to me. Not long now shorty or shortly or whatever your latest handle is.
Not sure that was the whole truth there Zoolander re; what ALPA allegedly said about not being ready.
Hong Kong has little or no labour protection so one has to tread very carefully. CX managment have been taking constant advantage of that fact in their inimitable way. The CX spin machine has to be grabbed by the balls to get a reasonable hearing in this pro business town and that is beginning to happen now. The SCMP are fed up with the persistant Cathay lies already.
They are ex colonial industrial thugs of the worst kind and they regard pilots as a necessary evil, trust me on that. We as a profession are loathed and dispised in CX.
If you are a prospective new recruit, you should be considering Emirates. The longstanding industrial hatred within this company, the marginal higher pay and higher cost of living in HK makes Dubai very attractive.
Do you really want to work for a company that can fire you for 'no particular reason'? We are currently operating on no particular contract that can be changed and eroded overnight without notice by those damn beancounters. Try and imagine it 10 years down the road when they are still looking for their bonuses.
Until this is resolved, it is NOT a career airline. Do not kid yourselves as they do.
However, there is more than one way to skin cat and much effort is going on behind the scenes bring their 'management methods' to the notice of the rest of the world. And managers come and go. (A little one with a big title is due to go soon). When this is finally over, there will be few of the protaganists and architects of this dispute left in CX management to worry about.
After the show on the recent vote to put the current AOA Prez back in the driving seat, i believe the membership are now ready for anything Zoolander.
On a personal note, it is a great privelege to write some home truths to CX's minor managers tasked with posing as pilots and writing their propaganda on this site. I know that it really chaps their asses. You all seem very uneasy to me. Not long now shorty or shortly or whatever your latest handle is.
Last edited by Munchkin; 2nd Sep 2002 at 13:09.
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Good one Solo, usual - someone else will do it for us propaganda. I am interested in your thoughts that SCMP is anti-CX, since the departure of Charlotte, who definitely was, I cannot say my readings concur with your theory. I sleep very well, ty for your concern and am waiting with bated breath for the outcomes of the overseas court cases. I feel certain that Swire will buckle straight under, if they lose, whether they have to or not lol. Further, you don't really think that any amount of spin by the AOA is going to engender public or corporate support for it in Hong Kong? Are there any reasonable readers out there who can answer this question? Doesn't the firm you work for and you have a contract closure clause, usually 3 months notice by either party or payment by either in lieu of notice? Every other company I have worked for had so I feel no particular worry about the one here. The fact that the company used this tool to poor effect on 49 pilots is of course regrettable, and was a dreadful thing. Solo, do you think the current course of action by the AOA will get them their jobs back as promised by ND? I don't and believe the only hope for them to return would require a sea change by the AOA.
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I believe ND will get his day and that he will probably win back some jobs, or at least some sort of "deal" from CX. You know as well as I do that the 49'ers reeks of a personal grudge list. I can just imagine those Blue Peter educated "managers" sitting around saying who didn't wear ones hat or whom said something out of sorts on the overnight in Seoul.
SCMP... News is about getting people to read it, right? You have to have someone to pick on. Why not a bunch of gweilo's messing up the harbour?
Opinion:
No one supports pilots, ever. They just don't have support of the masses. The only thing a pilot does have, is the union. Pilots need the union and union members need to enforce the rules. The only one looking out for pilots is pilots. End of story. You either support your union or your cross the street and don't look back.
There is a longer diatribe on the subject at hand (get it, he said HAND...)
http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/London/W...sses/scab.html
SCMP... News is about getting people to read it, right? You have to have someone to pick on. Why not a bunch of gweilo's messing up the harbour?
Opinion:
No one supports pilots, ever. They just don't have support of the masses. The only thing a pilot does have, is the union. Pilots need the union and union members need to enforce the rules. The only one looking out for pilots is pilots. End of story. You either support your union or your cross the street and don't look back.
There is a longer diatribe on the subject at hand (get it, he said HAND...)
http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/London/W...sses/scab.html
Last edited by SOLO; 2nd Sep 2002 at 18:21.
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Munchkin;
Good to hear about the solidarity amongst the members – because as we all know that is the only way it can happen. Ya’ll are going to need it –cause it takes a lot of courage and leadership, and if you and the AOA demonstrate that - I will support it 100%.
My rant is about exactly the lack of leadership and asking me to fall on your sword for you by observing the Ban.
And for the Facts read the - ALPA AIRLINE PILOT MAGAZINE ARTICLE ON CX “The pilots at CX were not psychologically ready to strike when the 49 were sacked…”
I personally can’t think of a higher cause to go on strike - most Unions do it for a Pay raise and a reduction in hours, or job security guarantee.
I’m not quite sure what color the sky is in your world but I think you need to take off the rose colored Serengeti’s WRT employment prospects 2002/03.
It is a new world order- Post 9/11, and your leadership should adjust its tactics accordingly especially considering they don’t seem to be achieving the desired objectives.
WRT Employment Prospects:
You promote the EK like it is knocking on everyone’s doors- “Well here is a news flash for ya Walter Conkite- they aren’t.
Post 9/11 the interview criteria went from typed F/O 3-4000 hrs to typed (B757/767/777, A320/330) Captain with 7000+ hours. If you check it out for yourself- their expansion is not set to happen until 2003/04. Which was planned pre 9/11 and may be adjusted for the new world order?
Flash forward to Unemployment Hell in Canada and the USA: Over 300 ALPA Canada 3000 (B757, 737, A320/330/340) Pilots of good standing and upright character whose kids are wondering why dad’s unemployment cheques which were supplementing his part time earnings at Home Depot, have stop coming in… and the house is now up for sale…and mommy and daddy are fighting about money all the time - let alone choosing which Airline he should work for and then CX calls and you are supposed to tell the wife and kids lets just hang tough until.??? As soon as I get some friends at West Jet I’ll get an interview cause they hire for attitude and train for skill….(not going to even mention the pay)
What dreamland offers all the choice you seem to think is available?
USAir ways - Chap 11 (lots of furloughed TWA chaps) UAL Lay offs, NWA Lay offs…
RIP: Sabena, Ansett, And Swiss Air. ….
Roll back of expansion plans at almost all the large carriers with most reducing capacity to meet cash flow challenges.
Calls for some rethinking of tactics and speaking of Tact if anyone calls me a SCAB I’ll be sure to call him a Pussy for not going on Strike and suggest he read the book:
ALPA’s Flying the Line II.
Good to hear about the solidarity amongst the members – because as we all know that is the only way it can happen. Ya’ll are going to need it –cause it takes a lot of courage and leadership, and if you and the AOA demonstrate that - I will support it 100%.
My rant is about exactly the lack of leadership and asking me to fall on your sword for you by observing the Ban.
And for the Facts read the - ALPA AIRLINE PILOT MAGAZINE ARTICLE ON CX “The pilots at CX were not psychologically ready to strike when the 49 were sacked…”
I personally can’t think of a higher cause to go on strike - most Unions do it for a Pay raise and a reduction in hours, or job security guarantee.
I’m not quite sure what color the sky is in your world but I think you need to take off the rose colored Serengeti’s WRT employment prospects 2002/03.
It is a new world order- Post 9/11, and your leadership should adjust its tactics accordingly especially considering they don’t seem to be achieving the desired objectives.
WRT Employment Prospects:
You promote the EK like it is knocking on everyone’s doors- “Well here is a news flash for ya Walter Conkite- they aren’t.
Post 9/11 the interview criteria went from typed F/O 3-4000 hrs to typed (B757/767/777, A320/330) Captain with 7000+ hours. If you check it out for yourself- their expansion is not set to happen until 2003/04. Which was planned pre 9/11 and may be adjusted for the new world order?
Flash forward to Unemployment Hell in Canada and the USA: Over 300 ALPA Canada 3000 (B757, 737, A320/330/340) Pilots of good standing and upright character whose kids are wondering why dad’s unemployment cheques which were supplementing his part time earnings at Home Depot, have stop coming in… and the house is now up for sale…and mommy and daddy are fighting about money all the time - let alone choosing which Airline he should work for and then CX calls and you are supposed to tell the wife and kids lets just hang tough until.??? As soon as I get some friends at West Jet I’ll get an interview cause they hire for attitude and train for skill….(not going to even mention the pay)
What dreamland offers all the choice you seem to think is available?
USAir ways - Chap 11 (lots of furloughed TWA chaps) UAL Lay offs, NWA Lay offs…
RIP: Sabena, Ansett, And Swiss Air. ….
Roll back of expansion plans at almost all the large carriers with most reducing capacity to meet cash flow challenges.
Calls for some rethinking of tactics and speaking of Tact if anyone calls me a SCAB I’ll be sure to call him a Pussy for not going on Strike and suggest he read the book:
ALPA’s Flying the Line II.
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Well said,
but at the same time one must not forget that life if given employment with cathay would be difficult both in and outside the flight deck, given the fact that soon we will all be C and D scalers if management continues down this path.
What kind of a life would that lead too. Miserable, broke and unable to advance.
I am all for the union but there has to be some change in the way this matter has been dealt with.
Hopefully for yours and mine sake they get back to the table, stop acting childish (that goes for both sides), do some hard swallowing, some apologizing and some negotiating.
Question to y'all
Why isnt the Swire group getting any of the heat on this situation. They do own the company. They are a BRITISH company. What have the Brits done to this BRITISH company. Nothing.
There behaviour should be publicly announced and condemmed in the UK. There behaviour is a reflection of pure pommpous pricks. I am pretty sure swire does not treat its british counterpart in such a manner. .....Yes i know industrial laws are different in Hong kong. But the AOA should be concentrating there efforts to raise UK public awarness of these actions....more agressively..
get them to answer to the whole damm mess.
The AOA should file against the Swire group directly in the UK. Lets see what kind of excuse they hace, when asked about human rights and employee rights. I guess there shareholders may want to rethink there shareholding. I guess a communist type of systems is acceptable for British companies. One could presume that they are a bunch of commies
Hit them right where it hurts---- there image and there name.
If swire wants this could be ending tomorrow. Cathay does what swire allows them to do.
but at the same time one must not forget that life if given employment with cathay would be difficult both in and outside the flight deck, given the fact that soon we will all be C and D scalers if management continues down this path.
What kind of a life would that lead too. Miserable, broke and unable to advance.
I am all for the union but there has to be some change in the way this matter has been dealt with.
Hopefully for yours and mine sake they get back to the table, stop acting childish (that goes for both sides), do some hard swallowing, some apologizing and some negotiating.
Question to y'all
Why isnt the Swire group getting any of the heat on this situation. They do own the company. They are a BRITISH company. What have the Brits done to this BRITISH company. Nothing.
There behaviour should be publicly announced and condemmed in the UK. There behaviour is a reflection of pure pommpous pricks. I am pretty sure swire does not treat its british counterpart in such a manner. .....Yes i know industrial laws are different in Hong kong. But the AOA should be concentrating there efforts to raise UK public awarness of these actions....more agressively..
get them to answer to the whole damm mess.
The AOA should file against the Swire group directly in the UK. Lets see what kind of excuse they hace, when asked about human rights and employee rights. I guess there shareholders may want to rethink there shareholding. I guess a communist type of systems is acceptable for British companies. One could presume that they are a bunch of commies
Hit them right where it hurts---- there image and there name.
If swire wants this could be ending tomorrow. Cathay does what swire allows them to do.
Last edited by aussie1; 2nd Sep 2002 at 23:09.
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Zoolander, as i said one has to tread carefully. There are quite a few A scalers who have held up the wishes of others to call a strike when the 49ers got fired for 'no particular reason'. They earn the most money and some are on wife No 4 etc etc and don't want to rock the boat. Not all though, many also support the 49ers and why do we need to distinguish? We will know where everyone stands soon enough.
Less now days though, as many are retiring and the younger guys who have signed up for a career want this and their dispicable management sorted out. I have heard, although i do not have first hand information about this; ND had to stop the younger guys from taking action at the wrong time they were so p*ssed with the situation. They say timing is everything and i have to agree with your statement about calling for action when the 49 got fired.
As for paying bills we all have them and they are all pressing. We have to make a moral choice and live with the consequences. There is nearly always an alternative and by rolling out the names of companies that have failed or laid off pilots only cheapens the argument to my mind. Just as many start up and if they do not, then one may have to have the balls to take a job outside of aviation until it improves. I did.
As juicy as a job may appear(and i would argue the point when it came to CX), i would not cross a picket line because undermines the profession - my profession and takes food from the mouths of other pilots families, but then that's just me.
As i and others have said, we have to look after our own. The beancounters certainly will not.
Aussie 1, have just read your post and yes you are quite right about Swires - hobnobbing it with the Royals whilst they run their grubby little sweatshop airline in Hong Kong, away from prying eyes. But not for long i'm assured.
The British press with all their faults adore hypocracy, especially from pompous arrogant businessmen who have a perchant for keeping the prols down in the mud. JHH must be an obvious target.
Certain things have been arranged - timing again, should they not come to the table and deal. Patience seems to be the key word here.
Management have been trying to appeal to our impatient natures as pilots with many attempts to muddy the waters and confuse the membership but it hasn't worked, has it shorty shortly?
Less now days though, as many are retiring and the younger guys who have signed up for a career want this and their dispicable management sorted out. I have heard, although i do not have first hand information about this; ND had to stop the younger guys from taking action at the wrong time they were so p*ssed with the situation. They say timing is everything and i have to agree with your statement about calling for action when the 49 got fired.
As for paying bills we all have them and they are all pressing. We have to make a moral choice and live with the consequences. There is nearly always an alternative and by rolling out the names of companies that have failed or laid off pilots only cheapens the argument to my mind. Just as many start up and if they do not, then one may have to have the balls to take a job outside of aviation until it improves. I did.
As juicy as a job may appear(and i would argue the point when it came to CX), i would not cross a picket line because undermines the profession - my profession and takes food from the mouths of other pilots families, but then that's just me.
As i and others have said, we have to look after our own. The beancounters certainly will not.
Aussie 1, have just read your post and yes you are quite right about Swires - hobnobbing it with the Royals whilst they run their grubby little sweatshop airline in Hong Kong, away from prying eyes. But not for long i'm assured.
The British press with all their faults adore hypocracy, especially from pompous arrogant businessmen who have a perchant for keeping the prols down in the mud. JHH must be an obvious target.
Certain things have been arranged - timing again, should they not come to the table and deal. Patience seems to be the key word here.
Management have been trying to appeal to our impatient natures as pilots with many attempts to muddy the waters and confuse the membership but it hasn't worked, has it shorty shortly?
Last edited by Munchkin; 2nd Sep 2002 at 23:25.
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Munchkin
I have been through LHR regularly and only made the point because I follow british and Australian press because im stuck in the US, and its seems to me that the government is quite happy to condemm there actions but have yet after a year do not do anything to push them into a corner. They must, being a british company be somehow accountable for these actions. Given a labour government, you would think they would be all over it.
As for us pilot, well i will stess it again, CX is getting exactly what they want, a divide within the group.
Neck to neck, I still cannot believe this is going on. If I was at the head of the table, I would do everything in my power to ensure that the pilot body remained unified, take Swire to the Cleaners in the UK and have a field day.
******** pompous pricks.
I agree management comes and management goes. Remember Frank Lorenzo, he came, he destroyed what he touched and has never been heard of again. Damm, dont mention that name around here, baseball bats go flying. Point being, who will remain in the end, us pilots....lets at least try to keep it civilised. I would like to believe that I do work with highly inteligent and professional ADULTS
You have all our support, but why is it that the union is losing so much of it???, Why have over 30% of your members resigned.
The ban has to be lifted and tactics changed. I foresee a majority unionless pilot body therefore a minority in all other respects.
You mentioned timing, Well mate the sand is running out. I hope you are right and i hope happens quickly. And when it goes down it better be glorious, im talking rocky style
aussie1
I have been through LHR regularly and only made the point because I follow british and Australian press because im stuck in the US, and its seems to me that the government is quite happy to condemm there actions but have yet after a year do not do anything to push them into a corner. They must, being a british company be somehow accountable for these actions. Given a labour government, you would think they would be all over it.
As for us pilot, well i will stess it again, CX is getting exactly what they want, a divide within the group.
Neck to neck, I still cannot believe this is going on. If I was at the head of the table, I would do everything in my power to ensure that the pilot body remained unified, take Swire to the Cleaners in the UK and have a field day.
******** pompous pricks.
I agree management comes and management goes. Remember Frank Lorenzo, he came, he destroyed what he touched and has never been heard of again. Damm, dont mention that name around here, baseball bats go flying. Point being, who will remain in the end, us pilots....lets at least try to keep it civilised. I would like to believe that I do work with highly inteligent and professional ADULTS
You have all our support, but why is it that the union is losing so much of it???, Why have over 30% of your members resigned.
The ban has to be lifted and tactics changed. I foresee a majority unionless pilot body therefore a minority in all other respects.
You mentioned timing, Well mate the sand is running out. I hope you are right and i hope happens quickly. And when it goes down it better be glorious, im talking rocky style
aussie1
Last edited by BlueEagle; 3rd Sep 2002 at 00:48.
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As i say Aussie 1, timing and patience.
If you are a pilot you are impatient to bring things to a conclusion, mainly because you can see the answer to a problem and you want to move on to other things.
Would you believe CX management see this as a weakness and will use it against you? They do. They try to spread lies, doubt and disunity amongst members with the help of their union busting company Freehills from Oz, only this time it is not working.
Regarding your figure of 30% i doubt that. There are many pilot managers who sneakily left the union just before and during this latest dispute and there are the freighter guys who were out on a limb because they were part of CX's grand plan to erode terms and conditions, but that's another story.
They are the C scalers who are gradually catching up to the B scalers, in fact they are mixing all the time. I think they will all join the union after this dispute.
At present i believe there are 20 different conditions of service for pilots in Cathay. This beancounter lead, closedminded ruthless management need to be ousted and fresh entreprenuerial faces installed, IF the company is to survive because soon, nobody will touch them. It takes an unbelievably short time for a major company to decay - check history.
But play them at their own game is what i would do. They have a more rigid time frame than mine and shareholders to answer to, let those devious bastards sweat for a change which some may well do shorty, i mean shortly - in court!
The words CX manager, pulp, batter, and witness box have been mentioned. Oh dear.
If you are a pilot you are impatient to bring things to a conclusion, mainly because you can see the answer to a problem and you want to move on to other things.
Would you believe CX management see this as a weakness and will use it against you? They do. They try to spread lies, doubt and disunity amongst members with the help of their union busting company Freehills from Oz, only this time it is not working.
Regarding your figure of 30% i doubt that. There are many pilot managers who sneakily left the union just before and during this latest dispute and there are the freighter guys who were out on a limb because they were part of CX's grand plan to erode terms and conditions, but that's another story.
They are the C scalers who are gradually catching up to the B scalers, in fact they are mixing all the time. I think they will all join the union after this dispute.
At present i believe there are 20 different conditions of service for pilots in Cathay. This beancounter lead, closedminded ruthless management need to be ousted and fresh entreprenuerial faces installed, IF the company is to survive because soon, nobody will touch them. It takes an unbelievably short time for a major company to decay - check history.
But play them at their own game is what i would do. They have a more rigid time frame than mine and shareholders to answer to, let those devious bastards sweat for a change which some may well do shorty, i mean shortly - in court!
The words CX manager, pulp, batter, and witness box have been mentioned. Oh dear.
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Well I hope for your sake and others that you are right. Just remember that you guys have our support. And by the way for those you who bash on the Americans, as a foreign national living in this country let me tell you that they do 100% support this cause. if they could, they would stand a line with you guys anyday of the week, because they have got the balls to do it.
"can I say BALLS on this website"
P.S Munchkin - the 30% came from reliable people within your AOA, just quoting the feedback I get from them.
Aussie 1
"can I say BALLS on this website"
P.S Munchkin - the 30% came from reliable people within your AOA, just quoting the feedback I get from them.
Aussie 1
Last edited by aussie1; 4th Sep 2002 at 00:46.
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Dont look now.....
Dont look now but you are actually talking AOA vs Management!
For weeks and months, all we have heard is Ban, Ban, Ban..... Its seems pertinent now to point out that as soon as you folk stop talking about the ban, you agree on almost every point!
To me this is a true indication that the ban is devisive.
Point of Order on Hong kong Employment Law:
Under HKG law, if I fire my staff for being hopeless, crap, messy, poor workers, late or smiling in an odd fashion, they have the RIGHT of redress (through the courts)................ if however I fire my staff for "no particular reason", there is NO RIGHT of redress at all. That is THE LAW.
Hence CX in-firing the 49ers said "for no particular reason". Whether there were or werent, whether their hats were on on off is irrelevant under HKG law. The party line is "no articular reason".
Its b0ll0x, I know, but may help some of you understand why this line has been used.
For weeks and months, all we have heard is Ban, Ban, Ban..... Its seems pertinent now to point out that as soon as you folk stop talking about the ban, you agree on almost every point!
To me this is a true indication that the ban is devisive.
Point of Order on Hong kong Employment Law:
Under HKG law, if I fire my staff for being hopeless, crap, messy, poor workers, late or smiling in an odd fashion, they have the RIGHT of redress (through the courts)................ if however I fire my staff for "no particular reason", there is NO RIGHT of redress at all. That is THE LAW.
Hence CX in-firing the 49ers said "for no particular reason". Whether there were or werent, whether their hats were on on off is irrelevant under HKG law. The party line is "no articular reason".
Its b0ll0x, I know, but may help some of you understand why this line has been used.
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Hand Solo - sorry about that but you need to clearly state your point to avoid confusing ...
Munchkin
“They earn the most money and some are on wife No 4 etc etc”,
That’s funny - A wise old Continental B777 Captain once explained it to me - that for every 100k - most pilots would get another wife. I guess that explains why I’m still with the first one…lol. Never earned that many Benjamin’s.
And:
“Would you believe CX management see this as a weakness and will use it against you?” …. Yes.
Read “Confessions of a Strike Breaker” (might be on VHS) or the expression Divide and Concur.
I think this thread is achieving the objective – misuse of nomenclature and all the earlier Rancor that went with it.
I think we can agree that it is universally accepted that if a “Replacement worker cross a picket line to do your work” he is a scab.
Where we beg to differ is the question - Are new hires, replacement workers for those that were fired? Is this ban tactic working or morally justifiable?
Early 2002/2003 CX Hiring is for Cargo. How many were fired from USAB/VETA positions? (Devil’s advocate here) … well I suppose one could view them as replacement in an evolutionary sense, because of upgrades and lateral transfers and such.
Soooooo.... the moral aspect of the virtual strike appears questionable re: All for us and none for you unemployed.
Now the tone is of warning and fore boding of things to come … hey if you got irreconcilable differences / issues perhaps a divorce is in order. In other words if it sucks so bad I’ll trade you the Home Depot Apron, or failing that grab yer self a spot on the EK interview list.
Remember it is always easier to find work when you are working. (Leper's syndrome or something)
Ah …but it is not that easy to heed ones own advice is it?
So here is a novel approach - do the unexpected - wrt to the new tactical plot:
1. Cancel the Ban (company views this as industrial action) as a peace offering to jumpstart the dialogue.
2. Recruiting drive to achieve a recorded 80-90 % support for drastic action – Strike in 6 months or so and draw the line in the sand.
So that this thing doesn’t turn into a complete fractured and unsalvageable debacle. (Even the Brits change tactics in WWI after they started figuring out that was trench warfare attrition was devastating.)
Lead me and I will follow, but if you black ball me you will never get my support.
It is a two way Street the AOA is going to need the support of the 230 or so planned new hires as much as the new hires will need a well led Union that looks out for their interests.
But we all know that now don’t we .... Any more clichés?
Munchkin
“They earn the most money and some are on wife No 4 etc etc”,
That’s funny - A wise old Continental B777 Captain once explained it to me - that for every 100k - most pilots would get another wife. I guess that explains why I’m still with the first one…lol. Never earned that many Benjamin’s.
And:
“Would you believe CX management see this as a weakness and will use it against you?” …. Yes.
Read “Confessions of a Strike Breaker” (might be on VHS) or the expression Divide and Concur.
I think this thread is achieving the objective – misuse of nomenclature and all the earlier Rancor that went with it.
I think we can agree that it is universally accepted that if a “Replacement worker cross a picket line to do your work” he is a scab.
Where we beg to differ is the question - Are new hires, replacement workers for those that were fired? Is this ban tactic working or morally justifiable?
Early 2002/2003 CX Hiring is for Cargo. How many were fired from USAB/VETA positions? (Devil’s advocate here) … well I suppose one could view them as replacement in an evolutionary sense, because of upgrades and lateral transfers and such.
Soooooo.... the moral aspect of the virtual strike appears questionable re: All for us and none for you unemployed.
Now the tone is of warning and fore boding of things to come … hey if you got irreconcilable differences / issues perhaps a divorce is in order. In other words if it sucks so bad I’ll trade you the Home Depot Apron, or failing that grab yer self a spot on the EK interview list.
Remember it is always easier to find work when you are working. (Leper's syndrome or something)
Ah …but it is not that easy to heed ones own advice is it?
So here is a novel approach - do the unexpected - wrt to the new tactical plot:
1. Cancel the Ban (company views this as industrial action) as a peace offering to jumpstart the dialogue.
2. Recruiting drive to achieve a recorded 80-90 % support for drastic action – Strike in 6 months or so and draw the line in the sand.
So that this thing doesn’t turn into a complete fractured and unsalvageable debacle. (Even the Brits change tactics in WWI after they started figuring out that was trench warfare attrition was devastating.)
Lead me and I will follow, but if you black ball me you will never get my support.
It is a two way Street the AOA is going to need the support of the 230 or so planned new hires as much as the new hires will need a well led Union that looks out for their interests.
But we all know that now don’t we .... Any more clichés?
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Talk about confused...
I had no point.
That is why I didn't state one, clear or otherwise.
I don't need a point to post.
I stated nothing to confuse you with.
I provided information.
You went off on me, newbie...
Since when did the Canadian Peso get called the Benjamin...besides aren't all furloughed pilots members in good standing?
I had no point.
That is why I didn't state one, clear or otherwise.
I don't need a point to post.
I stated nothing to confuse you with.
I provided information.
You went off on me, newbie...
Since when did the Canadian Peso get called the Benjamin...besides aren't all furloughed pilots members in good standing?
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Well Mr Zoolander you have come out of the closet finally!
Didn't take much, just some truthful banter. Must have touched a few sore spots.
My post was clear. Yours is rhetorical and hair splitting. You sir are CX management.
The ban will stay until the company deals. To appease an aggressor only them more aggressive and they are out to destroy us, aren't you!
In the meantime the name of Cathay Pacific will be spreading around the world as one to avoid at all costs for a professional pilot.
Hope your promotion goes well.
Didn't take much, just some truthful banter. Must have touched a few sore spots.
My post was clear. Yours is rhetorical and hair splitting. You sir are CX management.
The ban will stay until the company deals. To appease an aggressor only them more aggressive and they are out to destroy us, aren't you!
In the meantime the name of Cathay Pacific will be spreading around the world as one to avoid at all costs for a professional pilot.
Hope your promotion goes well.
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Aggression is the last resort of the simple minded. It is a very moot point as to who started the cycle of aggression, but one thing is certain, and has been proven over and over again in industrial disputes, the one with the biggest coffers wins. Don't you want to see some or all of the 49ers back at work? I do but it is only a pipe dream at the moment. Another thread talked about the issuance of new better contracts individually to all pilots. I hope that doesn't happen before we get back to the table or that might be the last curtain call for the AOA. Cmon guys lets just discuss the issues without resorting to name calling and blame allocation.
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What we are you talking about shortly, you aren't even in the f&cking union. If most of us had our way you and your ilk wouldn't even be included in a deal, back to the table...
What a git!
What a git!
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6-feet
Gee I guess you really told HIM there... *sigh*
shortly
For the luv-of-gawd don't you and VR-HFX stop posting else we'll be left with frothing-mouth idiots spewing incredibly clever names like "shorty"...BWA-HA-HA-HA-HA....thud.
Hey Munchie, what led to the conclusion that Zoolander is management? Dunna think so...
Gee I guess you really told HIM there... *sigh*
shortly
For the luv-of-gawd don't you and VR-HFX stop posting else we'll be left with frothing-mouth idiots spewing incredibly clever names like "shorty"...BWA-HA-HA-HA-HA....thud.
Hey Munchie, what led to the conclusion that Zoolander is management? Dunna think so...
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P Zee.
His general tone plus, cancelling the recruitment ban - a no brainer has been laboured so much on both forums that only managment think its a good idea, so they can carry on doing business as normal. Or do i owe him an apology!
Anyhow, the ban is a direct result of destroying 49+ good pilot's careers as an industrial act to get the other pilots to sign an eroded contract that nobody wanted. Terror tactics. It was also petty minded management retribution. They are truly sick.
Keeping the recruitment ban is showing the vast majority's views about their management and their handywork. They want the 49ers back. Its that simple.
As many have said, get the 49ers back and the ban is dropped. Then everyone can take a step back and negotiate the rest in good faith. The trouble is it takes a little balls and imagination to see through the loss of face. Since they did it to us, i would say the onus is on them. Particularly in light of the fact they cancelled the last round of negotiations and have subesequently refused to come to the table like some petulant child.
I don't think that is unreasonable to expect.
His general tone plus, cancelling the recruitment ban - a no brainer has been laboured so much on both forums that only managment think its a good idea, so they can carry on doing business as normal. Or do i owe him an apology!
Anyhow, the ban is a direct result of destroying 49+ good pilot's careers as an industrial act to get the other pilots to sign an eroded contract that nobody wanted. Terror tactics. It was also petty minded management retribution. They are truly sick.
Keeping the recruitment ban is showing the vast majority's views about their management and their handywork. They want the 49ers back. Its that simple.
As many have said, get the 49ers back and the ban is dropped. Then everyone can take a step back and negotiate the rest in good faith. The trouble is it takes a little balls and imagination to see through the loss of face. Since they did it to us, i would say the onus is on them. Particularly in light of the fact they cancelled the last round of negotiations and have subesequently refused to come to the table like some petulant child.
I don't think that is unreasonable to expect.
Last edited by Munchkin; 6th Sep 2002 at 07:41.
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PZ, what qualifies you to comment? Are you even employed by this lovely company? Are you even in the AOA? If not, then all of what you say can be filed in the same bin with ironhead and 411A.
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6-feet under
Qualified? Probably not, in your narrow little mind. ("If not, then all of what you say can be filed in the same bin with ironhead and 411A.") Give me a break, there are many beyond the AOA who have more than a passing interest in the current situation. Like the thousands of other CX employees, their families and dependents, the travelling public, and prospective employees, to name a few?
You only serve to underscore the gist of my post - the personal attacks are a silly waste of time.
Munchkin
Fair enough, I was just curious. EZ seems a little too Canuck ex-C3 to me to be management but there's one behind every bush I suppose...
I'm a pragmatist in the end. I haven't seen one iota of evidence to suggest that the recruitment ban has in any way prevented CX from "carrying on doing business as normal". It would seem the ban's defenders are clinging to it like a tattered flag, their last symbolic symbol of defiance. If they ever took action that was more than symbolic perhaps there would be some support for it.
Just my unqualifed opinion. Fire awayyyyyy...
Qualified? Probably not, in your narrow little mind. ("If not, then all of what you say can be filed in the same bin with ironhead and 411A.") Give me a break, there are many beyond the AOA who have more than a passing interest in the current situation. Like the thousands of other CX employees, their families and dependents, the travelling public, and prospective employees, to name a few?
You only serve to underscore the gist of my post - the personal attacks are a silly waste of time.
Munchkin
Fair enough, I was just curious. EZ seems a little too Canuck ex-C3 to me to be management but there's one behind every bush I suppose...
I'm a pragmatist in the end. I haven't seen one iota of evidence to suggest that the recruitment ban has in any way prevented CX from "carrying on doing business as normal". It would seem the ban's defenders are clinging to it like a tattered flag, their last symbolic symbol of defiance. If they ever took action that was more than symbolic perhaps there would be some support for it.
Just my unqualifed opinion. Fire awayyyyyy...