The Demise of Hong Kong Airlines
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jandakotcruiser:
Excelent point.
I had a chance to meet a few con artists in SE Asia.
Regarding HKA it is very strange that former chief pilot is doing manuals in AHK and former DFO is sim instructor.
Excelent point.
I had a chance to meet a few con artists in SE Asia.
Regarding HKA it is very strange that former chief pilot is doing manuals in AHK and former DFO is sim instructor.
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Hoofharted,
No I have not. That would be difficult as I am of Asian descent myself.
Again, I'm not white. I know that the new breed of HKA management has been less than fair in their dealings with Pilots / Flt Ops staff. I am actually closer to the situation than you know.
My point was simple but apparently you missed it entirely. Posting racially oriented remarks on a public forum is not going to make anyone sympathize with your cause. If anything, it will have the opposite effect. Insulting every single pilot of Asian descent with a blanket statement is immature, pointless, and puts you in the same category as those you are against. If your goal is to sound like an uneducated bigot, keep up the good work.
So you want to make this personal do you? Don't make presumptions about me. I've been around the industry long enough to experience my own fair share of $hit over the years and I certainly don't have to explain myself to you.
Do you think the same of your "non-white" colleauges at KA? You should save yourself further embarrassment and delete your post.
I was just wondering if you have ever been summarily sacked because you are a Caucasian?
Have you ever been given 1 weeks notice and left to wonder how you are going to pay your mortgage/rent and feed your family because you are white?
This is reality at HKA whether it offends your sensibilities or not, this is fact! Your utopian garden of Eden does not exist.
So before you lecture the world with your pious tripe and adopt your pompous positions of the politically correct, you may just want to think about how you might feel if the same had happened to you.
What you "yellows" can't comprehend is that for us "whites" (and I am fiercely proud to be one) it is about maintaining a standard.
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The case for the defense!
Drool69er/ Hoofarted,
I was aware as I wrote the post you find offensive that the wrath of the wronged would probably descend!
It is irrelevant but, yes, I have been made redundant, yes I have been worried about feeding the family and paying the mortgage etc. That is not the point.
I agree HKA is a mismanaged nightmare; I know of the injustice many have endured; I believe the CAD have failed in their duty of over-sight. I agree fully that pprune is not a place for the faint hearted and is the correct forum to highlight what has happened and air grievances.
I can not agree that it is a good strategy, good for the image of the profession or good for your own case to enter into a vitriolic diatribe that portrays the management as bad purely because they are Singaporean or Chinese; that all Asian are hopeless pilots and buy their ratings; that the use of offensive names will tighten the CAD over-sight. Racist language hardens entrenched attitudes and prejudices and does not lead to solutions.
I would love to see the HKA management get their due rewards and the CAD develop the guts to do their job. However, you can surely see you are providing fuel for the perpetrators in defense of their actions to dismiss the accusations and even the "irrefutable facts" as colonial era racial prejudice?
Could you really convince an impartial court that their actions were not governed by the need to cut costs and it was just unfortunate that all those affected were Caucasian? Could you really prove the allegations of "Parker Pen" hours in log books? Could you really show that the CAD knows their FOI is incompetent? Many good men who have also suffered from this mismanagement are on your side but recognise the real difficulties.
In short I agree with your case; not your methods. Utopian tripe in your opinion it may be, but in my book anything that undermines the ability for people of different races to work effectively together does us all a dis-service. Pompous you may claim, but it is an opinion borne of considerable cross cultural experience.
Yes - you were probably the victims not the original perpetrators of racism. Sadly that does not make retaliation on the same grounds acceptable.
I was aware as I wrote the post you find offensive that the wrath of the wronged would probably descend!
It is irrelevant but, yes, I have been made redundant, yes I have been worried about feeding the family and paying the mortgage etc. That is not the point.
I agree HKA is a mismanaged nightmare; I know of the injustice many have endured; I believe the CAD have failed in their duty of over-sight. I agree fully that pprune is not a place for the faint hearted and is the correct forum to highlight what has happened and air grievances.
I can not agree that it is a good strategy, good for the image of the profession or good for your own case to enter into a vitriolic diatribe that portrays the management as bad purely because they are Singaporean or Chinese; that all Asian are hopeless pilots and buy their ratings; that the use of offensive names will tighten the CAD over-sight. Racist language hardens entrenched attitudes and prejudices and does not lead to solutions.
I would love to see the HKA management get their due rewards and the CAD develop the guts to do their job. However, you can surely see you are providing fuel for the perpetrators in defense of their actions to dismiss the accusations and even the "irrefutable facts" as colonial era racial prejudice?
Could you really convince an impartial court that their actions were not governed by the need to cut costs and it was just unfortunate that all those affected were Caucasian? Could you really prove the allegations of "Parker Pen" hours in log books? Could you really show that the CAD knows their FOI is incompetent? Many good men who have also suffered from this mismanagement are on your side but recognise the real difficulties.
In short I agree with your case; not your methods. Utopian tripe in your opinion it may be, but in my book anything that undermines the ability for people of different races to work effectively together does us all a dis-service. Pompous you may claim, but it is an opinion borne of considerable cross cultural experience.
Yes - you were probably the victims not the original perpetrators of racism. Sadly that does not make retaliation on the same grounds acceptable.
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J' cruiser, B777300ER, hailer.........what we have here are the dregs, the bottom of the cesspit buccaneer types. Their language, strategies and mentality ( as one can grasp from the drift of their posts ) betray cry baby type low lives.
The fact that they are " whites " allow them freedom to abuse others in this forum makes one wonder.
HKA is probably already a cesspit to have such characters worked for them previously..........so the current crop of so called " snakes and swines " may be effecting a " purge " of the latrine!
The fact that they are " whites " allow them freedom to abuse others in this forum makes one wonder.
HKA is probably already a cesspit to have such characters worked for them previously..........so the current crop of so called " snakes and swines " may be effecting a " purge " of the latrine!
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Could you really convince an impartial court that their actions were not governed by the need to cut costs and it was just unfortunate that all those affected were Caucasian?
Could you really prove the allegations of "Parker Pen" hours in log books?
Yes - you were probably the victims not the original perpetrators of racism.
Mind you Hailer, I agree with most of your posts and retaliation really is pointless as nearly all of us now work for a proper airline, have doubled or trippled our income ( F/Os earning more than the GMO of HKA ), and no longer have to fly with pilots who consider unstable approaches ( amongst many other things ) as normal ops.
We will all have the final laugh when ( not if ) that pathetic excuse for an airline closes its doors, or has a major accident/incident, which ever occurs first.
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From the trend in their previous posts looks like someone has a MAJOR inferiority complex 
Run along little boy and worry about your own playground.
Run along little boy and worry about your own playground.
Hmmmmm........" their previous posts " do not square with " someone ": maybe an ivory coat little monkey from the so called forest can unscramble that!
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However, you can surely see you are providing fuel for the perpetrators in defense of their actions to dismiss the accusations and even the "irrefutable facts" as colonial era racial prejudice?
777, it is you who misses the point entirely. As you have not been in the same situation as the HKA 14, you really can't comment in any way shape or form on the experience these guys have had. It's a cliche but "you don't know until you have walked a mile in someone else's shoes", if you had you might just begin to understand the anger and bitterness that these guys have endured. I've also noticed a distinct trend in your posts to "wag your finger" at one side and ignore remarks from the other. If you are going to be the guardian of moral virtue, you'd best take an impartial view lest you be thought of as a hypocrite. Here are a few for you;
Really damd stupid.HKA just do the wet lease,because the whites in HKE cant stay in the rooms because the inferioritycomplex.
J' cruiser, B777300ER, hailer.........what we have here are the dregs, the bottom of the cesspit buccaneer types. Their language, strategies and mentality ( as one can grasp from the drift of their posts ) betray cry baby type low lives.
As for me, I actually love Hong Kong (wouldn't be here otherwise). I absolutely enjoy every single person that I have had the opportunity to work with and look forward very much to continuing enriching my life with these experiences well into the future. My vitriol is reserved for those at HKA and their defenders, and not as you would like to suggest every person from every nation. However, I will not "shut-up" and make no comment or refrain from stirring up a hornets nest in order to bring to peoples attention the absolute hypocrisy that lives in certain companies in Hong Kong. This my friend does not embarrass me at all.
Last edited by Hoofharted; 12th Aug 2008 at 14:25.
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Hoofarted, you couldn't have said it any better! Well done.
777 - Hailer -Jandakot - all have valid points and comments however some are bordering on ignorance.
If they had bothered to look back into the reason why this post was put here in the first place (and I suggest they do, coz if i'm wrong then I'd like to know) they'd see that racism was NEVER an issue, moreover its the dirty tactics of the Singaporean managers, followed by the dumping of the 14, to be replaced by unsafe, badly trained Indonesian pilots.
Now before you get up in arms, look at the posts and the FACTS that have been put with them. A widely respected, Government organisation(
FAA) deemed Indonesian safety standards very low. Are you then suggesting the FAA is racist?
I didn't think do, and no more than I , Hoof, or anyone posting negative comments towards these clowns.
It is a FACT-Indonesian airlines were banned from Europe and bad rep from FAA, not a racial issue.
It is a FACT - the current managers use snake like tactics to acheive what they want, which is immoral, criminal and have given Singaporeans a bad name.
Again, not a racial issue.
It only became racist when these idiots from Singapore and Indonesia with their aggressive attitudes, and lack of intelligence decided to accuse us "whites" of being racist, which is what you'd expect from uneducated baffoons.
In actual fact, they are wrong, as not all of us are white, from Aus, some of them have Asian wives/girlfriends - and like Hoof said, moved to HK for a better life and made local friends. Explain to me the racism in that?
You guys should get your facts right, and then back up your accusations with actual FACTS like we have, then you'd have a legit argument.
If I have stereotyped by suggesting all South East Asian pilots are useless, then I will refrain from doing so, but not without saying that its their own insecurities to believe I am targeting a race in particular. Get over it.
Some may say I have a unique attitude about this, I'd rather have that and stick up for what I believe in, than be two faced and despised by my works colleagues, as is the case for pilotinasia.
777 - Hailer -Jandakot - all have valid points and comments however some are bordering on ignorance.
If they had bothered to look back into the reason why this post was put here in the first place (and I suggest they do, coz if i'm wrong then I'd like to know) they'd see that racism was NEVER an issue, moreover its the dirty tactics of the Singaporean managers, followed by the dumping of the 14, to be replaced by unsafe, badly trained Indonesian pilots.
Now before you get up in arms, look at the posts and the FACTS that have been put with them. A widely respected, Government organisation(
FAA) deemed Indonesian safety standards very low. Are you then suggesting the FAA is racist?
I didn't think do, and no more than I , Hoof, or anyone posting negative comments towards these clowns.
It is a FACT-Indonesian airlines were banned from Europe and bad rep from FAA, not a racial issue.
It is a FACT - the current managers use snake like tactics to acheive what they want, which is immoral, criminal and have given Singaporeans a bad name.
Again, not a racial issue.
It only became racist when these idiots from Singapore and Indonesia with their aggressive attitudes, and lack of intelligence decided to accuse us "whites" of being racist, which is what you'd expect from uneducated baffoons.
In actual fact, they are wrong, as not all of us are white, from Aus, some of them have Asian wives/girlfriends - and like Hoof said, moved to HK for a better life and made local friends. Explain to me the racism in that?
You guys should get your facts right, and then back up your accusations with actual FACTS like we have, then you'd have a legit argument.
If I have stereotyped by suggesting all South East Asian pilots are useless, then I will refrain from doing so, but not without saying that its their own insecurities to believe I am targeting a race in particular. Get over it.
Some may say I have a unique attitude about this, I'd rather have that and stick up for what I believe in, than be two faced and despised by my works colleagues, as is the case for pilotinasia.
Last edited by drool69er; 13th Aug 2008 at 02:59.
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Facts remain facts
It is a FACT-Indonesian airlines were banned from Europe and bad rep from FAA, not a racial issue.
Look at their track records and I've personally flew with them in some IRT/PCs.......some are real SHOCKING!!!
Nuf said........
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Absolutely right Drool! Its the Singaporeans who started it all this "asean thing", even in AHK I am made to beleive. 
Its probably for their ego, arrogance and selve interest to be so-called 'airline managers' overnite!!
Using racism to elevate their inferiority complex I guess. Really sad and too bad aviation is leading to this state of proffesionalism.
Wonder how qualified and what management experience the 'Singaporeans' and 'Dick Stew' are/have over the old management team..??
Good luck!!
Its probably for their ego, arrogance and selve interest to be so-called 'airline managers' overnite!!
Using racism to elevate their inferiority complex I guess. Really sad and too bad aviation is leading to this state of proffesionalism.
Wonder how qualified and what management experience the 'Singaporeans' and 'Dick Stew' are/have over the old management team..??
Good luck!!
Last edited by Capt Vertigo; 13th Aug 2008 at 04:45. Reason: grammer
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Drooler mate....
If they had bothered to look back into the reason why this post was put here in the first place (and I suggest they do, coz if i'm wrong then I'd like to know) they'd see that racism was NEVER an issue, moreover its the dirty tactics of the Singaporean managers, followed by the dumping of the 14, to be replaced by unsafe, badly trained Indonesian pilots.
After the 14 were let go...dick and his curly wirly'd hired so called "experienced widebody" pilots (some f/os too). These guys 2 of them from Malaysia arent showing any of their experience in HKA. One of them recently had majorly exceeded QAR into Japan. Lets see what kind of treatment he gets if any from management.
Most of the guys/girls hired during GR's reign had no previous jet experience and yet 90% of them have clean flying records with HKA. These new 'experienced widebody' pilots including the guys from SIA who are on the left hand seat with HKA have had numerous issues with non-cmpliance with SOP's and numerous HARD QAR exceedences!
My point is that the excuse to let the 14 go was "inexperience"...but we all know that we'd be safer with them in the RHS/LHS than the incompetent fools we having managing (excluding KL and GB) HKA now and their mates with widebody exp.
If they had bothered to look back into the reason why this post was put here in the first place (and I suggest they do, coz if i'm wrong then I'd like to know) they'd see that racism was NEVER an issue, moreover its the dirty tactics of the Singaporean managers, followed by the dumping of the 14, to be replaced by unsafe, badly trained Indonesian pilots.
After the 14 were let go...dick and his curly wirly'd hired so called "experienced widebody" pilots (some f/os too). These guys 2 of them from Malaysia arent showing any of their experience in HKA. One of them recently had majorly exceeded QAR into Japan. Lets see what kind of treatment he gets if any from management.
Most of the guys/girls hired during GR's reign had no previous jet experience and yet 90% of them have clean flying records with HKA. These new 'experienced widebody' pilots including the guys from SIA who are on the left hand seat with HKA have had numerous issues with non-cmpliance with SOP's and numerous HARD QAR exceedences!
My point is that the excuse to let the 14 go was "inexperience"...but we all know that we'd be safer with them in the RHS/LHS than the incompetent fools we having managing (excluding KL and GB) HKA now and their mates with widebody exp.
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I've been reading this thread for some months now with much amusement and am gonna chuck in my two cents now for what it's worth...
We were all bracing ourselves for the arrival of the Indonesians and I remember turning up to work with some trepidation the first time I was rostered to fly with one. I've now flown with 3 of the Indonesian Captains so far and to be quite honest, haven't had a problem with any of them. i can't speak for them all, but the ones I've flown with fly the plane safely and are most definately no where near the worst Captains in this company. You have to be careful lumping people into the same category - yeah Indonesia has an appalling safety record, but that doesn't mean that every pilot that flies there, or has flown there, is unsafe. NZ has an above average GA accident rate, but I'll be the first to take offence with anyone inferring that all NZ GA pilots are therefore dangerous.
As a side note, the two worst Captains in this company (by 'worst' I mean downright f&cking dangerous) were hired by the previous management. Bad captains are not a new thing here, there have always been bad apples but this doesn't mean all South American pilots are sh!t or all Hungarian pilots are sh!t or for that matter that all Indonesian pilots are good. By making this statement, I'm definately not taking our current management's side here - they are underhanded and snakey and I quite agree that the firing of the 14 was most definately racially motivated and totally unacceptable. I guess what I'm trying to say is that this company has never been right and I think will never be right.
Just my 2 cents...
We were all bracing ourselves for the arrival of the Indonesians and I remember turning up to work with some trepidation the first time I was rostered to fly with one. I've now flown with 3 of the Indonesian Captains so far and to be quite honest, haven't had a problem with any of them. i can't speak for them all, but the ones I've flown with fly the plane safely and are most definately no where near the worst Captains in this company. You have to be careful lumping people into the same category - yeah Indonesia has an appalling safety record, but that doesn't mean that every pilot that flies there, or has flown there, is unsafe. NZ has an above average GA accident rate, but I'll be the first to take offence with anyone inferring that all NZ GA pilots are therefore dangerous.
As a side note, the two worst Captains in this company (by 'worst' I mean downright f&cking dangerous) were hired by the previous management. Bad captains are not a new thing here, there have always been bad apples but this doesn't mean all South American pilots are sh!t or all Hungarian pilots are sh!t or for that matter that all Indonesian pilots are good. By making this statement, I'm definately not taking our current management's side here - they are underhanded and snakey and I quite agree that the firing of the 14 was most definately racially motivated and totally unacceptable. I guess what I'm trying to say is that this company has never been right and I think will never be right.
Just my 2 cents...
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A good point insomniaq.....very true.
Its just these ignorant idiots who keep using the old baseless "racism" claims because they cant think of anything better to say rub the guys the wrong way. Obviously now they realise their fault in these accusations, and left it alone......good.
777300ER is the worst in this case - the pot calling the kettle black! Pretending to be some big guy in aviation, I bet he hasn't had half the life experience of some of the 14 that got fired.
Average Joe from Aus, NZ, Canada or South Africa invests a good 10-15 years of his/her life before finally nailing the big airlines job, and gains alot of personal experience on the way.
Whereas Mohammed Iza Bin Pharten from Indonesia sells 3 goats and a couple of chickens to his mate down the road to get his fake licence stamped comes over to HK thru the back door (which is the singa snakes preferred entry)and lowers the standard for everyone.
Whilst I know its not all Indonesians that are of that stature, a large chunk of them are, and alot of them are in HKA. Not all Singaporeans are snakes, but the ones in HKA are, hence, singa snake. This thread is about dirty criminal singa snakes and unsafe pilots replacing hard working pilots in HKA. So therefore, we refer to them as Singa snakes (Madam Wu, Small Dickie Lai, etc) and useless unsafe South East Asians(pilotinasia).
The intention is for those at HKA. Not a generalisation, and that last paragraph is for all you thick idiots who claim to know it all but come up with nothing but unsubstantiated racism claims.
From now on lets look at the real issue at hand. An airline has been raped, ruined and lost a good buch of guys who had nothing but good intentions for the Chinese owned company.
Its been replaced by cheap, unsafe labour from you know where, and managed by unqualified, badly trained, and whats worse, arrogant and aggressive idiots whose focus is only to their own and dont give a sh!t about anyone else. I want them out. Everyone else at HKA wants them out. So.........THEY SHOULD GET THE F - OUT!!!!!!!
Its just these ignorant idiots who keep using the old baseless "racism" claims because they cant think of anything better to say rub the guys the wrong way. Obviously now they realise their fault in these accusations, and left it alone......good.
777300ER is the worst in this case - the pot calling the kettle black! Pretending to be some big guy in aviation, I bet he hasn't had half the life experience of some of the 14 that got fired.
Average Joe from Aus, NZ, Canada or South Africa invests a good 10-15 years of his/her life before finally nailing the big airlines job, and gains alot of personal experience on the way.
Whereas Mohammed Iza Bin Pharten from Indonesia sells 3 goats and a couple of chickens to his mate down the road to get his fake licence stamped comes over to HK thru the back door (which is the singa snakes preferred entry)and lowers the standard for everyone.
Whilst I know its not all Indonesians that are of that stature, a large chunk of them are, and alot of them are in HKA. Not all Singaporeans are snakes, but the ones in HKA are, hence, singa snake. This thread is about dirty criminal singa snakes and unsafe pilots replacing hard working pilots in HKA. So therefore, we refer to them as Singa snakes (Madam Wu, Small Dickie Lai, etc) and useless unsafe South East Asians(pilotinasia).
The intention is for those at HKA. Not a generalisation, and that last paragraph is for all you thick idiots who claim to know it all but come up with nothing but unsubstantiated racism claims.
From now on lets look at the real issue at hand. An airline has been raped, ruined and lost a good buch of guys who had nothing but good intentions for the Chinese owned company.
Its been replaced by cheap, unsafe labour from you know where, and managed by unqualified, badly trained, and whats worse, arrogant and aggressive idiots whose focus is only to their own and dont give a sh!t about anyone else. I want them out. Everyone else at HKA wants them out. So.........THEY SHOULD GET THE F - OUT!!!!!!!
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I been told that the ex-S'pore guys who came in from Air HK...... other than for Ronal, all the rest either failed their command upgrades in SIA, or SIA refused to even give them a crack at it, and that's why they left SIA to Air HK in the first place. Anyone can confirm?