upgrade failure rates / sacked while in trainig

[flyingkiwi]

ACMS you sound very similar to an AOA commitee member i talked to the other week about this issue. I questioned him wether the AOA was addressing the training problem and the high failure rate on command courses. His reply was "off course not its the companies trainset they can do it how ever they like" i questioned him further saying it was AOA members having there lives ruined by this. (There are over 120 people on the seniority list either Cat B'd or D'd ie senior to the most junior 330 or 777 captian) He again pushed the point saying if thats how the company wants to run the training system then thats ok.

Unbenowen to that committee member i had my AOA application form and cheque in my bag, I was on my way to post it when i stopped for the coffee. The only place that application went was the bin.

Lets put it in a way you may appreciate. Do you have kids.. are the really stupid (off course not) How would you feel if you sent them to a school that had a very strict entry process including exams and a history check on there previous school records. Then 30-50% of the kids in the same class FAILED, not passed with an average mark but failed outright. Who would you be pointing your finger at. I bet when you saw that your kid was amongh 30-50% of other kids that had failed you would start asking questions about the training system.

What does surprise me in the CX case is that the DFO has not started to hold the training managment more accounable. 30-50% is unacceptable even from the finnacial cost.

My 50 cent answer to a lot of the problems.

1. Hold the review board before the candidate goes up for the check, so the instructors can train the problems out of the candidate. The company will then save valuable resources in freeing up BTCs/STCs for other checks and give the TCs somnething to train, It also saves the candidate failing, losing confidence and entering the CX spotlight.

Before you reply and say that the problem is in the candidates check. well hands up anyone that does not know a friend/peer that has passed the check only to be knocked back at the review board.

2. Make the TCs and Checkers more accountable by having the trainee sign off on his ERAS. OK leave the final say to the checker but have a feedback system. We all know of the checkers that will say nice flight welldone then write up an aweful ERAS.

an example a new cpt told me the other day. on his 3Bar with a certain infamous A330 STC going into Saigon or somewhere similar. the VOR was U/S. so the STC asked him what he was using for the 25nm sector MSA, he replied he was using the ILS DME as it was appoixmitely in the same location and displayed on his PFD. The checker queried why not put SGN VOR onto the PROG page on the MCDU. The trainee used the magical letters O..I..C. This discussion was hardly even included in the debrief. however the ERAS later read "poor terain awareness" This 3 letter comment meant he failed the review board and had to do another 3 bar check which subsequently was with another checker and passed with flying colours.

Does the CX training system have a problem... of couse it does and if you disagree you must be either in managment or wanting to be in managment.

[ACMS]

FCUX said

that the last thing they would be expected to do is play a game instead of using their accumulated knowledge, experience and talent to ensure advancement.

Playing the game is:- using "accumulted knowledge, experience and talent" combined with "street smarts"
The more you have the better you can play the game.
You should know what Cx expect of you after being here for 8 odd years, if you don't then you'd better wake up.
How many people spit the dummy after a setback? more than a couple, this is not playing the CX game. Our management want to see a lot of talent mixed with a bit of humility. "I love Cathay, i've done wrong, i'll do better next time, thankyou". That's what they want to hear, not "f.... you Cathay, I deserver better" Those guys never advance.
As I said before I don't like the star chamber system, I don't like the fact a person can be held back by one persons dislike or opinion of another.

CX is what it is--- CX

I am trying to say Cx is not Qf, Ba, Ka, or Ek. We have develped a way of doing things over 60 years, right or wrong this is our way. Things evolve slowly, out with the old in with the new doesn't happen overnight. You should know the system, work with it not against it.
What is the failure rate at the moment? I know it's damn close to 0% on the 777. maybe that's why I have the opinion I do, coming from the best fleet
I guess it fair to say I have a foot on both sides of the fence, I can see the crap aspects of our system, but knowing your enemy goes a long way to defeating him.
Five Greens there are 3 important points in the back of the 777 FCTM:
1/ SOP
2/ Convention and
3/ Opinion.
Keep these in mind.
It's easy to say, but I'll say it again......"play the game"

[Five Green]

Here he goes again

Originally Posted by ACMS

FCUX said
Playing the game is:- using "accumulted knowledge, experience and talent" combined with "street smarts"

Don't forget suckin arse, towing the company line, and putting your family second ! Where do I get "street smarts" from ?

Originally Posted by ACMS

That's what they want to hear, not "f.... you Cathay, I deserver better"

See now that is the whole problem right there. If you speak out against the training system this is how you are thought of ! It is an extremely simplistic viewpoint. Just because I disaree with some of the system does not mean that I am saying F you CX . On the contrary I am trying to point out, as did Kiwi, that there are some simple improvements that can be made in the training department.

Originally Posted by ACMS

Things evolve slowly, out with the old in with the new doesn't happen overnight. You should know the system, work with it not against it.

Exactly we should work with it to improve it !I do not expect it to change overnight. We do need to continue to keep this issue in the limelight and help it change gradually. That is why the AOA should keep a dialogue on this issue going.

Originally Posted by ACMS

What is the failure rate at the moment? I know it's damn close to 0% on the 777. maybe that's why I have the opinion I do, coming from the best fleet

Not to belittle the improved rate on the 777 but you must look at yearly averages not just a good week or two. The meer fact that one fleet has a better pass rate than another by such a margin should prove to you that the system needs some tweeking.

Originally Posted by ACMS

Five Greens there are 3 important points in the back of the 777 FCTM:
1/ SOP
2/ Convention and
3/ Opinion.
Keep these in mind.
It's easy to say, but I'll say it again......"play the game"

That again is one of the problems not a solution. SOPs are SOPs. Some people are checking using convention and opinion as SOPs. Fine great as a comment in de-brief but not as a negative write up in your ERAS.

I and all my mates are "playing the game" as best as we know, but unless you have been personally affected and you lack an empathy gene then I guess I am banging my head against a rock wall ?

[ACMS]

FIVE GREENS

Don't forget suckin arse, towing the company line, and putting your family second ! Where do I get "street smarts" from ?

Street smarts, jungle savvy. Call it what you like, Don't rock the boat.
Oh and yes I guess a certain amount of suckin arse is required. Tell em what they want to hear, after you pass you can say what the hell you want.

See now that is the whole problem right there. If you speak out against the training system this is how you are thought of !

Mate as an FO keep your opinions to yourself, it's not fair I know but for your own sake tow the line. Change the system as a Captain later if you have to. This is what I mean by playing the game. Our managers hate being told what to do by anyone, especially FO's !!

I and all my mates are "playing the game" as best as we know, but unless you have been personally affected and you lack an empathy gene then I guess I am banging my head against a rock wall ?

Yes I have the "empathy" gene.

Not to belittle the improved rate on the 777 but you must look at yearly averages not just a good week or two. The meer fact that one fleet has a better pass rate than another by such a margin should prove to you that the system needs some tweeking.

I can only speak from personal experience on the 400 and 777 fleet.

That again is one of the problems not a solution. SOPs are SOPs. Some people are checking using convention and opinion as SOPs. Fine great as a comment in de-brief but not as a negative write up in your ERAS.

NO, this is part of the solution, why do you think the training dept put this paragraph in????? because they recognised that some trainers were pushing their opinions onto students as fact/must do things and it needed addressing.
Don't underestimate our training managers, they know how their training/checking Captains "mark their students" and they adjust their thinking accordingly.
FIVE GREENS I don't totally disagree with you thoughts, you make some valid points.
Maybe the 777 has a much better bunch of training guys? ( i am not one of them ) The 777 has a a nearly perfect record for a long time now. Is that a reflection of the 777 a/c? or a reflection on what the trainers write in their ERAS reports? The poison pen syndrome is alive and well, no doubt about it.
I'm just trying to put my side of the argument, me and a lot of others that have passed command ( and there are a lot of us ) managed to scrape through somehow. Maybe it was luck? I dunno but i'm here.
We could sit here and debate it for a long time, the fact is this is what we have here in Cx, love it or hate it.
Come to the 777, we'll look after you.

[Numero Crunchero]

Flying Kiwi...look back through that rubbish bin. Better to agitate from the inside than yell from the outside. PPRUNE isn't read much by the GC...well it wasn't when I was on it...who has the time! If you want to be heard, join up...adn join us non-voters/abstainers;-)

Five Green...
statistically speaking, you can get a very accurate prediction of the total vote from a sample as small as 30people...I think it is called the "Student T distribution" or some such mumbo jumbo. Point is...700...70...1700...you can always 'spin' the numbers. I think Nick said only 15% or something voted against it...technically true as over 50% could not vote as they weren't in the AOA, and anther 10% chose not to vote even though they were in the AOA. You can always spin numbers...the facts are that out of those that bothered to vote, 57% voted yes, 43% voted no to RP07.

Onto the training system...both you and ACMS make good points. I have to agree with ACMS on being smart and playing the game(I don't and it has cost me). But there is hardly a business out there where there isn't kiss arse and politics. Its just that in our profession, honesty in the cockpit is paramount. We are not alone in this working dichotomy. Just watch one of the plethora of medical dramas...the surgeons are all gung ho, honest go getters and tehn leave the operating theater and suddenly it is politics and financial pressures! It is their train set...so play smart.

What I do STRONGLY disagree with ACMS on is the training system...how is it that we have gone from pass rates into the 90+% 5 years ago to such high failure rates? Is it the recruits? The system? The trainers? The syllabus?
I think they(management) recognise there is a problem, but like any good tail wagging any dog, they are solving it with more checks on the candidates, pre command sims etc. Big picture...at least they are reacting to a problem...little picture...it sucks trying to get an upgrade nowadays.

[Five Green]

Bravo FCUX ! Well said.

The training management should develop a system that gets feedback from the candidates. Then they could highlight areas or checkers who need attention ! Only then would there be true HONESTY in the system.

At the moment it is gear up shut up , listen to me !

"oh by the way your autopilot is disconnected...."

Cheers

FG

[Five Green]

Originally Posted by Numero Crunchero

Five Green...
statistically speaking, you can get a very accurate prediction of the total vote from a sample as small as 30people...I think it is called the "Student T distribution" or some such mumbo jumbo. Point is...700...70...1700...you can always 'spin' the numbers. I think Nick said only 15% or something voted against it...technically true as over 50% could not vote as they weren't in the AOA, and anther 10% chose not to vote even though they were in the AOA. You can always spin numbers...the facts are that out of those that bothered to vote, 57% voted yes, 43% voted no to RP07.

The whole idea is to get all the AOA members to vote. It is better to abstain than not to vote. It shows you are concerned with the issue and following along. Not voting tells us nothing but that you are apathetic on the issue, something that has an affect on how seriously any changes are negotiated.

As for the spin on non-members as I have said before if the company made it clear that they were only going to negotiate with the AOA and supported the AOA recruiting then this problem of representation would go away! Then anyone who does not like the AOA might join and try to fix it from within !!!

FG

[ACMS]

FCUX

ACMS what you fail to recognize here is that we are not on street patrol in Fallujah, or taking a stroll through the Amazon with only a spoon and a map. We are professional pilots employed at a major airline. We are grown men and women. I missed the part of my job description that said I needed to hide a "shiv" in my waistband or keep checking my back every few seconds for irate monkeys.

correct, we are not in a war. BUT you must be on your guard during training and checking, this is a major part of playing the game. I don't know what a "shiv" is but you should check over your shoulder every now and then.

First of all Numero Crunchero, your statement is a huge contradiction. You obviously cant "play the game" and be honest at the same time...thats why its call playing a game.
You have to lie, suck up, do things you dont feel are right, go against your gut feeling, ignore SOP to fly to the checkers convention or opinion, listen to their deviant behaviors in Wan Chai pretending to be impressed, and accept their criticism on ERAS though it may not be correct. None of which are traits of honesty.

ignore SOP to satisfy the checkers convention????????????? huh Not on my fleet you don't. And i would hope that most trainers on the other fleet would be the same. SOP and standardisation are the catch words on the 3rd floor.

As for there not being a business out there where there isn't ass kissing. Its called FedEx, UPS, BA, Virgin, etc. There is no need to play games, to the extent that is required at CX, to gain advancement. You go through a very selective process called an interview which roots out most of types of pilots they dont want, you then gain experience in the right seat, when your time comes they then TRAIN you to upgrade, not check you to upgrade. If you look at the success rates, they are guaranteed to be better than even the cx 777. The difference being the training department, cause on average pilots are all the same. (except for me perhaps... )]

Really? At Cx we come from many and varied backgrounds, Africa, North America, Europe, Asia ( not to mention NZ ) etc etc. This brings many different standards and ideas to Cx. That means our training dept need to adopt a slightly different method to ensure we are all on the same page.A dumbing down of the operation is required in some respects to reflect the lower experience levels of some of our crews. It is not and cannot be the same way Virgin, Ba, Qf, fedex, UPS, et al do business. I think if you compare our safety record then we more than equal those other airlines mentioned.
Now let me try to sum up my opinion.
We at Cx are not perfect, never have been never will be. The Star chamber system is flawed, and should not exist. There are some checkers out there that definately "have an excellent grasp of the non-essential" Guys that write too much in ERAS. That is the same in any airline, just ask your friends at Qantas.
Until the star chamber is history and all checkers are cloned the same things will not change here. Personalities will continue to play a big part of the process, we are human after all.
Be as professional as you can, do your job the best you can and play the game. It's not going to change overnight so adapt to your environment or become extinct. Harsh maybe, but true.
I don't know what else to say.

[Numero Crunchero]

FCUX
I read somewhere the other day that 93% of the time the meaning of the written word is misinterpreted.

I am almost 100% honest in the cockpit, including in training/checking, which is why it has cost me...trust me, people senior to you don't like it when you disagree with how they do things. I don't presume to know better than them, but when it comes to personal opinion on non SOP items, I listen to everyones ideas and then do whats right for me, not the checker on the day. It definitely puts noses out of joint. Recently an infamous Checker told me he remembered me as a 'punchy FO'...I guess I didn't laugh at bad jokes or flatter and told him when he was wrong!

No matter the politics....does it cost anything to keep your mouth shut on opinion on checks/training...argue SOP that is fine, but not the niff naff.

It does sound like those other airlines are quite good. But guess what we are here. My ex military job was way better for professionalism and lack of political b&*sh*t. But this job pays more so I choose to stay here. I have friends who have worked in QF(long and short haul), National Jet, EK, Asiana...in fact one of them has worked for all of them since he left CX. He still regrets leaving CX...he said it has the best work culture of all..and when he left he was only flying with the 'long shirters with cuff links' on the -400. I do remember an airbus CN leaving to join Virgin...and his salary there(as CN) was the same as an FO here...it has probably improved since though!

So maybe there are better options than CX....but the salary and the culture will keep me a while longer. It could definitely use improving though!

[FlexibleResponse]

We should remember that Command is a privilege that is earned.

It is not a right of passage to just any SFO/FO/SO.

Command is not rocket science but does require a reasonable degree of intelligence. I can assure you that you wouldn’t be in your job if you didn’t possess this quality already. Therefore, it stands to reason that you are Commander material? Read on…

Most of all Command requires superior commonsense and judgement.

Note that every ERAS Check Form has items for your Check Captain to fill-in such as attitude and other personal qualities relating to Command potential. An FO could make it really easy for the Checker by personally addressing and enhancing each of those qualities that need to be assessed.

If an FO is having problems with his upgrade, it is highly likely to be some deficiency which will be highlighted by the ERAS system long, long, before...rather than something wrong with the training/checking system itself.

The following messages are secret and only to be read by those pilots with the right attitude to aviation and truly aspire to be excellent Commanders. Preparation is the vital element. This is worth repeating.

Originally Posted by FlexibleResponse

CX wants to upgrade you.
If you are not ready, you will not be upgraded.
Talk to your line Captains and get some free advice on your strengths and weaknesses. This information will not normally be offered unless you ask.

Originally Posted by FlexibleResponse

It is very rare indeed for the physical manipulation of the jet to feature in the failure of pilots to be upgraded to Command (it is possibly a little more likely for other upgrades for early career JFO/FOs).
By far the greatest factor is plain old simple application of commonsense to the operation of the jet to accomplish the mission safely and efficiently.
For some people this is innate, for most people it is learnt and for other people it will never happen.

Get with the program, or if you do not truly understand the demands of aviation Command, do yourself and everyone else a favour and check-out early. Take that either way!

In closing, allow me to say that nothing has given me greater pleasure in my aviation career than to take some poor lad with the right attitude on remedial Command training, fix his problems and pop him out the other end with four bars.

[Five Green]

Missing the plot

Originally Posted by FlexibleResponse

We should remember that Command is a privilege that is earned.

It is not a right of passage to just any SFO/FO/SO.

Finally some truth ! Cathay will not give a command to every First Officer. Therefore should you be considering CX for a job you must weigh this against other carriers that would be happy to get you to command.

Originally Posted by FlexibleResponse

Command is not rocket science but does require a reasonable degree of intelligence. I can assure you that you wouldn’t be in your job if you didn’t possess this quality already. Therefore, it stands to reason that you are Commander material? Read on…

Wait a minute I thought you just said that Command is not assured ? Or was it not a "right of passage.." or are they the same....?

Originally Posted by FlexibleResponse

Most of all Command requires superior commonsense and judgement.

No kidding.....wow... you mean like using spell and grammar checks?

Originally Posted by FlexibleResponse

Note that every ERAS Check Form has items for your Check Captain to fill-in such as attitude and other personal qualities relating to Command potential. An FO could make it really easy for the Checker by personally addressing and enhancing each of those qualities that need to be assessed.

Hey there are a lot of candidates that have spotless training records and get the boot. This also does not explain the arbitrary nature of "Cat'Bing"

Originally Posted by FlexibleResponse

If an FO is having problems with his upgrade, it is highly likely to be some deficiency which will be highlighted by the ERAS system long, long, before...rather than something wrong with the training/checking system itself.

Yep so what about the ones who do not have a highlighted ERAS trail ? That get held back at the round table ?

Originally Posted by FlexibleResponse

In closing, allow me to say that nothing has given me greater pleasure in my aviation career than to take some poor lad with the right attitude on remedial Command training, fix his problems and pop him out the other end with four bars.

So what is wrong with passing the "Poor young little lad" (who probably is an Adult in his 40s) on his first try ? If he is having a problem during the first course FIX IT THEN if he or she is not ready give him the training he/she needs don't just dump him on the same fleet to continue doing relief.

See there are things we can do to improve the system. You just have to open your eyes look at what other carriers are doing and then look at us. Surely we can still learn a thing or two here at CX.

rant out !

[Glass Half Empty]

Originally Posted by Five Green

Hey there are a lot of candidates that have spotless training records and get the boot. This also does not explain the arbitrary nature of "Cat'Bing"

I always wonder how people know that unless they have read the ERAS reports of the ones involved. Bar talk is never as accurate as the real report!

[electricjetjock]

Other carriers are doing it better

Five green

You go on about them so much why dont you leave and get your deserved command at one of these other carriers. After all they apparently have no failures according to your argument.

You do not get your Command at Cathay or any Airline just for turning up and being there when your seniority number hits the top. You do actually have to put the effort in.

ATTITUDE plays a big part and once you have cleared the large hurdle of the Command Course, then you are left to get on with the job without much interference from management. You have to show them that you can produce the goods consistantly and deal with stress / problems. Once you are free you will be flying worldwide is these fantastic widebody jets - what other airline gives you the chance of a widebody command after 8 years?????

Finally please tell us of the qualifications that you have to give you creditability to debrief the Trainers / Checkers.

[cpdude]

Originally Posted by electricjetjock

Finally please tell us of the qualifications that you have to give you creditability to debrief the Trainers / Checkers.

There are several CFS experienced A1 and A2 qualified instructors that are more than qualified to de-brief CX trainers and checkers on their performance. Most I have spoken to just can't be bothered to get involved!

[stratocumulus]

Originally Posted by sec 3

Best advice I've seen on here for a long time!PLAY THE GAME !! It works everywhere, all the time

Even with Etihad????????

[electricjetjock]

CFS QFI's

CPDUDE

I was asking for FIVE GREENS qualifications!

Some of us are ex CFS A2's.

As for GODLIKE ( and I am NOT being derogatory) A1's there are not many of them around.

I do not think you have spoken to all of the ex QFI's, there are plenty in the training department.

[Five Green]

Is this thing on ?

Originally Posted by electricjetjock

Five green

You go on about them so much why dont you leave and get your deserved command at one of these other carriers. After all they apparently have no failures according to your argument.

Typical answer from your sort. If you don't like it LEAVE. Well I actually do like it, it can however be better. Also I never said that I even deserve command. However many who do have not made it through. So as a professional would you not like to see the Cat'bing slow down, JFOs upgrades improve and command pass rates increase ?

Originally Posted by electricjetjock

You do not get your Command at Cathay or any Airline just for turning up and being there when your seniority number hits the top. You do actually have to put the effort in.

Please, don't treat me like an idiot. Firstly I never said you did. Secondly, as I have said, NO ONE SHOWS UP FOR A COMMAND WITHOUT DOING THE PREPARATION !!!
So do you think that CX's pass rates are in line with industry averages ?

Originally Posted by electricjetjock

Finally please tell us of the qualifications that you have to give you creditability to debrief the Trainers / Checkers.

Regardless of my background, the question is a perfect example of the problem with the training system here at CX. "What right do you have to question me..". Not very professional don't ya think ? A good pilot once told me "you can learn something from everyone" When I had my days in the left seat I always kept that in mind.

Standing by.....

[Sqwak7700]

Well said Five.

I also like it here. That is why I would love to see some changes in CX, to make it even better. If I didn't like, then yes, I would leave. But I find that this place has a lot of potential to be even better than it is.

I would question anybody that doesn't criticize the training in Cathay. Besides, for a company that is so keen on handing out criticism, they sure aren't too happy to receive it. That is what I think should change. A sort of checks and balances.

Let me give you an example. We record every flight through ACMS, right? So if a checker mis-writes an ERAS comment to say "trainee configured late", or "trainee disengaged autobrakes too late", then you could look up the ACMS and make reference to it so that a harmful comment could be evaluated. This isn't necessary at other airlines because if employees were punished at their job without proof or due cause, the employees would have the right to sue.

It is a two way street. CX seems to want to make it a one way street. A lot of "This is good for you, but not quite for me" attitude. I really would like to see that change.

[Yeager]

Just face the fact - the sooner the better.

Most of the dudes stay with Cathay only because its their best option in terms of money. CX payscale is good and especially the housing assistance for the Honkie based crew is great. If you are doing B744 longhaul your roster is great, eg. lots of days off and that means a great opportunity to live your life - outside "the company". The aircrafts are fairly new and quite well maintained - fine. The rest is ****. Admit it. Company ressource management, here under; Management, Flight Crew "training" - wooooowww the hole in that Swiss cheese is HUGE - an accident waiting to happen - the incidents speaks for themself, sure lots of long haul and not lots of sectors and bla bla bla - its that hole in the Swiss cheese that pocesses the biggest threat to Cathay. A constant breath down your neck - hows that next Line check, hows that next sim, hows that next interview, remember OIC and the list goes on. Until you get those 4bars - u better not f... up - because backup from your company is a city somewhere in Russia, they will focus on finding your mistakes and how to put the blame on you and then degrade you - most other professional airlines would try and back you up, learn from the f... up and then try and avoid it in the future - just like we all know avition should be like.
"Training"(read. checking). Let it be said, there are some good instructors/trainers in Cathay that knows what training is all about - unfortunately there are also a bunch of looser "trainers"(read checkers) with no life besides from flying and they are the ones that might f... up your life. It will be in your report and it will be questioned when your upgrade comes - no matter weather its corrrect or not - and you should never question that - that will only take you further down the drain. The shout up and accept management by fear culture is very, very strong here. Face that fact.

An airline and an flight operation should exist in an OPEN minded enviroment, where its crew is not afraid, but motivated and encouraged to speak up, and let others learn about their mistakes and exchange ideas. Flight operations should back up its crew and belive in it - until otherwise proven. Training in an open enviroment is the root of a safe operation. These are basic fundamentals that most other airlines has adapted to back in the 80-90s. Cathay has got a very long way to go. Very long indeed.

Take care out there - but watch your back
Y

[BillytheKid]

I find it suprising that the company allows the trainers/checkers such a low pass rate (compared to the rest of the industry). That stuff costs money! Sending a guy back to RC after a failure was basically a waste of thousands of dollars.