British Airways vs. BASSA (current Airline Staff Only)
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Hector
The only people who should be resigning over this sorry mess is every single BASSA and CC89 rep. Every single one should be hanging their heads in shame and resign from the union. And better still, resign from the company.
Throughout this ridiculous episode they have made one monumental mistake and misjudgement after another and they have fundamentally failed all of their members. They are the one who have dragged BA through the mud.
As BASSA all but publicly accepted today, you have lost. There is no way out. There is no grand master plan BASSA is planning to unveil at a time of its choosing.
You can keep on pointing the finger at others and engage in post-event rationalisation all you like. But the fact remains you've lost.
This was a battle of your choosing, not BA's. You could have accepted the original offer on the table and would have never come to this. You could have accepted BA's changes to crewing levels and learnt a lesson that stonewalling the company won't work. But you decided to pick this fight. And you've lost. It's game over.
The only people who should be resigning over this sorry mess is every single BASSA and CC89 rep. Every single one should be hanging their heads in shame and resign from the union. And better still, resign from the company.
Throughout this ridiculous episode they have made one monumental mistake and misjudgement after another and they have fundamentally failed all of their members. They are the one who have dragged BA through the mud.
As BASSA all but publicly accepted today, you have lost. There is no way out. There is no grand master plan BASSA is planning to unveil at a time of its choosing.
You can keep on pointing the finger at others and engage in post-event rationalisation all you like. But the fact remains you've lost.
This was a battle of your choosing, not BA's. You could have accepted the original offer on the table and would have never come to this. You could have accepted BA's changes to crewing levels and learnt a lesson that stonewalling the company won't work. But you decided to pick this fight. And you've lost. It's game over.
Last edited by LD12986; 7th Aug 2010 at 22:04.
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thanks hector
Hector, I am so glad you post, this forum would soon get stale without you and your alter ego`s, however, you do talk such rubbish sometimes.
You say that most VCC`s are in a union, I disagree with you, a lot are managers and a lot more are staff that have left the union in disgust and signed up to VCC, that is certianly the case for all VCC on my course.
You say that most VCC`s are in a union, I disagree with you, a lot are managers and a lot more are staff that have left the union in disgust and signed up to VCC, that is certianly the case for all VCC on my course.
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Well LD, I notice that the two reps responsible for the mess over your OpenSkies fiasco, did not resign.
The fact is that rather than any talk of having "lost", the action is far from finished yet LD. It is simply moving into a new phase.I hope you understand this.
I am sorry you and others here are disappointed that UNITE hasn't immediately called a third ballot. The ball is in Willie's court, let him impose once more. But he wouldn't dare, not with the appeal looming in October and getting closer every day. If he does though, well we will see.....
Giza, like the Temps, you are equally disposible, especially as you are not in a union.
The fact is that rather than any talk of having "lost", the action is far from finished yet LD. It is simply moving into a new phase.I hope you understand this.
I am sorry you and others here are disappointed that UNITE hasn't immediately called a third ballot. The ball is in Willie's court, let him impose once more. But he wouldn't dare, not with the appeal looming in October and getting closer every day. If he does though, well we will see.....
Giza, like the Temps, you are equally disposible, especially as you are not in a union.
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Hector Vector
I do think the non disposability of union members is being called into question in this dispute. You have to start talking realities. BA can sack whoever it wants at any time, for whatever reason. You have to stop pushing the Strawbs defence, because it has no basis in fact.
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Hector,
Willie Walsh has been saying for some time that if there were another strike, BA will operate 100% of long-haul flights. But the silence from BASSA and Unite on this has been deafening. Indeed, Duncan Holley seems to have accepted that this will happen. Yet they all know that there are WW crew who would obey a strike call. So, who is looking disposable now?
Willie Walsh has been saying for some time that if there were another strike, BA will operate 100% of long-haul flights. But the silence from BASSA and Unite on this has been deafening. Indeed, Duncan Holley seems to have accepted that this will happen. Yet they all know that there are WW crew who would obey a strike call. So, who is looking disposable now?
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"BA only has six months to survive". Walsh May 2009
No Litebulbs.
The cabin crew dispute shows that the theme of your post is NOT possible, otherwise it would have been done.
If you are not in a union, then it would be a different story. Look out VCC's and get back to your regular jobs before someone takes your place, or you might miss a promotion opportunity. Look at what has happened to some of the loyal Temps. It could be you next.
Willie will review each department in due course, and the VCC's will only highlight waste which will be permanently chopped.
Also BA is short of pilots at the moment, especially on the 744 fleet. One of the old relics has been pulled from Victoryville to be spruced up and put back into operation. Who is going to fly this aircraft? Managers? Surely pilots can't be spared to fly as cabin crew? What a waste of resources and talent. I don't know, Willie should never have allowed those 800 cabin crew to take severance. What a mistake!!
Just to add, 'CEO incompetence' in making predictions doesn't just rest with Walsh, in November 2008 his mate O'Leary predicted only four airlines would survive the recession including his own. Looks like Irish airline CEO's have poor pyschic abilities.
The cabin crew dispute shows that the theme of your post is NOT possible, otherwise it would have been done.
If you are not in a union, then it would be a different story. Look out VCC's and get back to your regular jobs before someone takes your place, or you might miss a promotion opportunity. Look at what has happened to some of the loyal Temps. It could be you next.
Willie will review each department in due course, and the VCC's will only highlight waste which will be permanently chopped.
Also BA is short of pilots at the moment, especially on the 744 fleet. One of the old relics has been pulled from Victoryville to be spruced up and put back into operation. Who is going to fly this aircraft? Managers? Surely pilots can't be spared to fly as cabin crew? What a waste of resources and talent. I don't know, Willie should never have allowed those 800 cabin crew to take severance. What a mistake!!
Just to add, 'CEO incompetence' in making predictions doesn't just rest with Walsh, in November 2008 his mate O'Leary predicted only four airlines would survive the recession including his own. Looks like Irish airline CEO's have poor pyschic abilities.
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Hector Vector
What part is wrong? As I understand it, BA have dismissed 15 people and have over 100 suspensions related to this dispute allegedly. There will probably be more before this is over.
You have to carry it on your conscience if you in anyway mislead a union member to think that they have more rights than a non union member, whilst in dispute. TULRCA 1992 was the start of the new era in union activities and the ERA 1996 started the move away from collective to individual rights.
You have to carry it on your conscience if you in anyway mislead a union member to think that they have more rights than a non union member, whilst in dispute. TULRCA 1992 was the start of the new era in union activities and the ERA 1996 started the move away from collective to individual rights.
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Hector
Let VCC worry about their positions (not they have any reason to). Let BA worry about how many pilots it needs.
BASSA have dug themselves into a hole. How are they going to get out of it (legally)?
Let VCC worry about their positions (not they have any reason to). Let BA worry about how many pilots it needs.
BASSA have dug themselves into a hole. How are they going to get out of it (legally)?
For God's sake - give it a rest with the "VCC are not going to have jobs to go back to" blah!
Even if you were right (which you're not) it is tedious beyond belief that you keep repeating the same old lines. Move on!
Even if you were right (which you're not) it is tedious beyond belief that you keep repeating the same old lines. Move on!
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Flaps, but it all depends on your point of view. Some people here like LD keep banging on that BASSA has "lost", when clearly it has fought a fine battle with solid support.
Let's face it, Walsh never thought he would be in the position he is now. He is in the pomme frite and it is only the depth that is varying.
As far as collective action or not, many crew are taking out individual actions against BA. This is just the start of a tidal wave of litigation to come.
Let's face it, Walsh never thought he would be in the position he is now. He is in the pomme frite and it is only the depth that is varying.
As far as collective action or not, many crew are taking out individual actions against BA. This is just the start of a tidal wave of litigation to come.
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More 'accurate' numbers...
International Transport Workers' Federation: News online
International Transport Workers' Federation: News online
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Thanks for the link im1234.
This dispute at BA is a clearly defined attack on trade unionism, which if it succeeds, could cause a meltdown amongst unions not just in the UK, but Europe as well. No one is in any doubt that employees will be targeted by Walsh at Iberia once he gets control of IAG.
The amazing thing is that supposedly intelligent people, many of whom write on this forum, think they will be immune from this onslaught in the future. They are sadly deluded and misguided even by their own association, who now seeks "mutuality agreements" to protect itself and its members. Look what has happened in the USA to pilot pay. You can't have it both ways lads...shafting your cabin crew colleagues and protecting your own interests. If BASSA/UNITE fail, the domino effect will sweep BALPA out of the way as well, as sure as night follows day
This dispute at BA is a clearly defined attack on trade unionism, which if it succeeds, could cause a meltdown amongst unions not just in the UK, but Europe as well. No one is in any doubt that employees will be targeted by Walsh at Iberia once he gets control of IAG.
The amazing thing is that supposedly intelligent people, many of whom write on this forum, think they will be immune from this onslaught in the future. They are sadly deluded and misguided even by their own association, who now seeks "mutuality agreements" to protect itself and its members. Look what has happened in the USA to pilot pay. You can't have it both ways lads...shafting your cabin crew colleagues and protecting your own interests. If BASSA/UNITE fail, the domino effect will sweep BALPA out of the way as well, as sure as night follows day
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HV. Quite so, BA's profitability does not rest solely on the CCs' T&Cs, however BA will have researched where they are spending over and above and will have highlighted the areas (in all depts) where changes could be made for future prosperity.
In terms of blunders, well the Union has to win the award there and at the risk of sounding 'like a Crew Manager on an "In-touch" day'
, BA has played a blinder, so far, in this particular issue!
In terms of blunders, well the Union has to win the award there and at the risk of sounding 'like a Crew Manager on an "In-touch" day'
, BA has played a blinder, so far, in this particular issue!
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Hector Vector
You are absolutely correct about the attacks on trade unionism. I agree that their is a huge amount of litigation round the corner for BA, but at best, it will just be another cost in compensation and many a career could be ruined.
The law is not balanced and to hope that it will help, is a dangerous avenue to follow. It is not fair, but that is UK employment law for you.
The law is not balanced and to hope that it will help, is a dangerous avenue to follow. It is not fair, but that is UK employment law for you.
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Hector, BASSA has lost. How can anyone say otherwise. By definition if they haven't won they must have lost.
BASSA expected BA to cave in last year as had happened so many times in the past. Now 18 months later, membership has fallen dramatically, actual 'do not go to work' support of the strike action was ~50%* or less, ST has been lost, the only offer available now is materially worse than those available only a few months ago and even in his postings DH talks about collapse, being beaten, weakened etc.
If that is not failure, I'd hate to see what is. BASSA could have come out of this situation a WHOLE lot better. It's BASSA's fault how badly they managed their strategy. Now it's a case of when they collapse rather than if, they've used the only tactic they have and it blew up in their face. I'd even go as far as starting a conspiracy theory that DH has been paid to weaken BASSA from the inside because in his tenure as leader he has done more to weaken that union's influence than the last 5 BA CEOs combined!
* Approx 14,000 cc. Taking BASSA's figure of 7,000 strikers = 50%. Taking BA's figure of 5,000 = 36%.
BASSA expected BA to cave in last year as had happened so many times in the past. Now 18 months later, membership has fallen dramatically, actual 'do not go to work' support of the strike action was ~50%* or less, ST has been lost, the only offer available now is materially worse than those available only a few months ago and even in his postings DH talks about collapse, being beaten, weakened etc.
If that is not failure, I'd hate to see what is. BASSA could have come out of this situation a WHOLE lot better. It's BASSA's fault how badly they managed their strategy. Now it's a case of when they collapse rather than if, they've used the only tactic they have and it blew up in their face. I'd even go as far as starting a conspiracy theory that DH has been paid to weaken BASSA from the inside because in his tenure as leader he has done more to weaken that union's influence than the last 5 BA CEOs combined!
* Approx 14,000 cc. Taking BASSA's figure of 7,000 strikers = 50%. Taking BA's figure of 5,000 = 36%.
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Some people here like LD keep banging on that BASSA has "lost", when clearly it has fought a fine battle with solid support.
HV/Duncan, you keep repeating the same stuff (in your various alter egos) about Walsh 'coming for the rest of us'.
How many times do you have to be told that he HAS ALREADY BEEN EVERYWHERE ELSE!
But I forgot, it would be against the cult message, so you just ignore inconvenient facts.
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As your in a vocal mood, could you explain how Unite expect to win this and to stop all the plans for mixed fleet and for the imposition of reduced crew complement and for the restitution of staff travel and of sacked/disciplined cabin crew. I'm genuinely interested to hear how this is supposed to pan out.
Be aware, no-one outside your world sees Bassa other than in a whole world of hurt, and to suggest a 'fine' campaign (exemplified by the call to unofficial action with blinds, and by the Abba lyrics) indicates a lack of objective awareness. You won't win by just 'feeling' strongly that you're in the right.
From outside Bassa, they look bereft of ideas and on a path to self-destruct.
WW is continuing to take the company forward - without even speaking to Bassa since 2009.
Be aware, no-one outside your world sees Bassa other than in a whole world of hurt, and to suggest a 'fine' campaign (exemplified by the call to unofficial action with blinds, and by the Abba lyrics) indicates a lack of objective awareness. You won't win by just 'feeling' strongly that you're in the right.
From outside Bassa, they look bereft of ideas and on a path to self-destruct.
WW is continuing to take the company forward - without even speaking to Bassa since 2009.
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Litebulbs. BA has also found litigation to be a "dangerous avenue", hence losing its injunction on appeal. Now Walsh is going to be on the receiving end.
The fact is MissyMinx that employees have contracts. Perhaps you have one. There you go, I have just ripped it up. Your annual leave has been cut to 19 days, you are no longer in a Final Salary pension scheme and because you are on a new contract, you no longer have the protection of the 1948 Redeployment Agreement. Your new contract has reduced your basic pay by £5,000 which will also affect your pension, if you have not already left the company. Surely you would agree with this new "ethos"? If you don;t, what are you going to do? Go on strike?
And another note on contracts, I do not get into the queue at Tescos and when I get the bill, just tell the check out till operator what I am prepared to pay for the goods. I may not think half a dozen eggs is worth 97p, but the price is a "contract" to buy.
The same with crew on older contracts. It would have been much cheaper merely to have bought them off with severance, plus all the associated damage to BA and its brand would have been saved. No instead, Willie had to use the big stick and now it is going to cost BA hundreds of millions more to pay for his mistakes.
The fact is MissyMinx that employees have contracts. Perhaps you have one. There you go, I have just ripped it up. Your annual leave has been cut to 19 days, you are no longer in a Final Salary pension scheme and because you are on a new contract, you no longer have the protection of the 1948 Redeployment Agreement. Your new contract has reduced your basic pay by £5,000 which will also affect your pension, if you have not already left the company. Surely you would agree with this new "ethos"? If you don;t, what are you going to do? Go on strike?
And another note on contracts, I do not get into the queue at Tescos and when I get the bill, just tell the check out till operator what I am prepared to pay for the goods. I may not think half a dozen eggs is worth 97p, but the price is a "contract" to buy.
The same with crew on older contracts. It would have been much cheaper merely to have bought them off with severance, plus all the associated damage to BA and its brand would have been saved. No instead, Willie had to use the big stick and now it is going to cost BA hundreds of millions more to pay for his mistakes.
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And another note on contracts, I do not get into the queue at Tescos and when I get the bill, just tell the check out till operator what I am prepared to pay for the goods. I may not think half a dozen eggs is worth 97p, but the price is a "contract" to buy.
The price displayed for the goods is merely an "invitation to treat". When you go to the till, contractually, you make an offer to purchase the goods which is then accepted by the retailer (which in actuality is done without saying anything).
There is nothing from a contract law perspective from you offering to pay at the till different price for the goods than that displayed on the shelf.
It's called negotiation.
