British Airways vs. BASSA (current Airline Staff Only)
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Dave
I think Biteme has chosen to leave, not been banned.
I honestly don't hate ANY crew. I believe I should support and protect ALL crew from intimidation and misinformation.
I happen to know , and like , a particular csd who has been the victim of what can only be called a campaign of intimidation by a Bassa rep.
Please quote any hateful comments directed at crew, rather than "Bassa".
BA is a business. Don't take everything so personally.
I think Biteme has chosen to leave, not been banned.
I honestly don't hate ANY crew. I believe I should support and protect ALL crew from intimidation and misinformation.
I happen to know , and like , a particular csd who has been the victim of what can only be called a campaign of intimidation by a Bassa rep.
Please quote any hateful comments directed at crew, rather than "Bassa".
BA is a business. Don't take everything so personally.
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The Blue, I realy take on board what you are saying and do not expect loved up conversations on this forum after all yes it is adult debate.. The only thing I would ask is that people are a little more patient with people on this forum and think before they type.. me included ....
I decided to go on strike I have suffered the consiquences of that.. Yes we all know we were told what would happen however that doesn't mean that I agree with it.. I stated on earlier posts that I suppose I would be classed as militant for my actions.. not killed anyone just followed what I believe in the same way that volunteers did what they believed in when they volunteered and the crew who voted for strike action then went into work..I for one would welcome all parties to sit round a table and behave like adults and talk about this because one thing for sure it is not going away and it is not being resolved whilst we are in this state of stale mate. We need to keep talking and I hope that we can with open honest debate. My only concern on this forum is that it is a public forum and my fear since the face book problems is that anything that we debated about the company would be seen as disaplinary action
I decided to go on strike I have suffered the consiquences of that.. Yes we all know we were told what would happen however that doesn't mean that I agree with it.. I stated on earlier posts that I suppose I would be classed as militant for my actions.. not killed anyone just followed what I believe in the same way that volunteers did what they believed in when they volunteered and the crew who voted for strike action then went into work..I for one would welcome all parties to sit round a table and behave like adults and talk about this because one thing for sure it is not going away and it is not being resolved whilst we are in this state of stale mate. We need to keep talking and I hope that we can with open honest debate. My only concern on this forum is that it is a public forum and my fear since the face book problems is that anything that we debated about the company would be seen as disaplinary action
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Well put Mod!
I came on here looking for that debate. I'm not even cabin crew myself but when I have tried to bring in a little balance and look at why so many cabin crew are backing their union stance, all that happens is vitriolic attacks from people who are supposedly my own colleagues. Anyone who disagrees with the resident attack dogs has to be a BASSA militant even though I've stated openly and clearly more than once that I'm no such thing.
I want to see an amicable settlement to this dispute and quickly, as all of our jobs are being affected negatively by it.
The "sound and fury signifying nothing" brigade are open in their desire to smash the cabin crew union as shown above in response to one of my posts. I don't think that would be helpful and will ultimately affect us all.
The evident hatred of anything to do with BASSA I've read on here is unlikely to promote any kind of debate let alone settlement. This has to end one day and these attitudes are simply going to make that harder to achieve with any kind of lasting peace.
I came on here looking for that debate. I'm not even cabin crew myself but when I have tried to bring in a little balance and look at why so many cabin crew are backing their union stance, all that happens is vitriolic attacks from people who are supposedly my own colleagues. Anyone who disagrees with the resident attack dogs has to be a BASSA militant even though I've stated openly and clearly more than once that I'm no such thing.
I want to see an amicable settlement to this dispute and quickly, as all of our jobs are being affected negatively by it.
The "sound and fury signifying nothing" brigade are open in their desire to smash the cabin crew union as shown above in response to one of my posts. I don't think that would be helpful and will ultimately affect us all.
The evident hatred of anything to do with BASSA I've read on here is unlikely to promote any kind of debate let alone settlement. This has to end one day and these attitudes are simply going to make that harder to achieve with any kind of lasting peace.
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Go for the ball not the player??
I am BA staff - I am not C-Crew or F-Deck.
I have NO, repeat NO time for any industrial action taken by anyone in today’s society - I believe if you don't like your T+C you leave, it is not up to employees to dictate how an employer runs their business. That is my personal view. However we are all very lucky to live in a country and time that allows us all to have our own views and 'rights'. Therefore I do not question any individual that take a view and decides it is their right to strike.
I believe, personally, that the general view of the BA CC community to acknowledge that their T+C are not superb and have been for so long that now they must (like everyone else) give up (permanently) some of these to allow our airline to continue in business in a market place that is SO different from when those T+C were set, criminally naive.
To then a) take such (planned to be) severe industrial action which has such potentially serious damage to an airline that employees so many (who have already given up their T+C) is beyond belief. To follow that with b) the claims by it's (BASSA) supporters of unfair play, the victimisation of those who chose not to strike, the continual demonstrations (xxxx, yellow pens, 'scabin crew chants'), the comparison with their actions/strike with things such as war victims, their continual offensive use of nicknames for BA management, is just beyond the actions of anyone that is sane. The closest comparison seems to be when you look at how 'normal, intelligent' people are taken in by cults and believe their world view and actions are sane!
I have many, many CC friends -some who took IA, gladly many that didn't - however I treat them all the same. Sadly those who took IA do not share the same view with their view on those that didn't take IA.
I list all the above, so hopefully everyone can see which camp I sit in and why.
Now for the point of this post.
I am quite shocked at the recent attacks on here against those 'trying' to express their views for the pro strike/BASSA camp (biteme/Dave etc.).
I believe (IMHO) that many of the replies have been back at the person, rather than the points they make. This is easy to do (I myself have been 'deleted' in the past by a Mod for and instructed to 'play the ball not the player' - at the time I thought my posts were fair, but then I read them back on thought 'okay, yeah - fair play/comment') - what concerns me at present is that not only are the mods not seeming to remove posts that I believe that are going (openly) for the player and not the ball, but (correct me if I am wrong) but the mods seem to be joining in?
I hope this is not deleted and at least some feel it is a fair point. However ultimately I respect authority and also that this is the Pilots network - as I said before I am not a pilot (or c crew) and therefore I believe myself to be a guest. Therefore if a mod deletes me, I have no issues with their opinion and authority to do such.
I have NO, repeat NO time for any industrial action taken by anyone in today’s society - I believe if you don't like your T+C you leave, it is not up to employees to dictate how an employer runs their business. That is my personal view. However we are all very lucky to live in a country and time that allows us all to have our own views and 'rights'. Therefore I do not question any individual that take a view and decides it is their right to strike.
I believe, personally, that the general view of the BA CC community to acknowledge that their T+C are not superb and have been for so long that now they must (like everyone else) give up (permanently) some of these to allow our airline to continue in business in a market place that is SO different from when those T+C were set, criminally naive.
To then a) take such (planned to be) severe industrial action which has such potentially serious damage to an airline that employees so many (who have already given up their T+C) is beyond belief. To follow that with b) the claims by it's (BASSA) supporters of unfair play, the victimisation of those who chose not to strike, the continual demonstrations (xxxx, yellow pens, 'scabin crew chants'), the comparison with their actions/strike with things such as war victims, their continual offensive use of nicknames for BA management, is just beyond the actions of anyone that is sane. The closest comparison seems to be when you look at how 'normal, intelligent' people are taken in by cults and believe their world view and actions are sane!
I have many, many CC friends -some who took IA, gladly many that didn't - however I treat them all the same. Sadly those who took IA do not share the same view with their view on those that didn't take IA.
I list all the above, so hopefully everyone can see which camp I sit in and why.
Now for the point of this post.
I am quite shocked at the recent attacks on here against those 'trying' to express their views for the pro strike/BASSA camp (biteme/Dave etc.).
I believe (IMHO) that many of the replies have been back at the person, rather than the points they make. This is easy to do (I myself have been 'deleted' in the past by a Mod for and instructed to 'play the ball not the player' - at the time I thought my posts were fair, but then I read them back on thought 'okay, yeah - fair play/comment') - what concerns me at present is that not only are the mods not seeming to remove posts that I believe that are going (openly) for the player and not the ball, but (correct me if I am wrong) but the mods seem to be joining in?
I hope this is not deleted and at least some feel it is a fair point. However ultimately I respect authority and also that this is the Pilots network - as I said before I am not a pilot (or c crew) and therefore I believe myself to be a guest. Therefore if a mod deletes me, I have no issues with their opinion and authority to do such.
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Ops respect your post and your opinion.. Re your view and your right to your view on crew leaving if they dont like the terms and conditions could we debate the point that crew joined on certain T&C's and those same T&C's are now slowly being taken away...? I have believe me given up a lot personaly and financial (before this industrial action and now) to work and stay employed with this company (not looking for any sympathy)I have moved bases 3 times moving my family and children with me..finaly moving them 6years ago after my base was closed. this should not in my opinion be a case of put up and shut up this is my familys lives as well.. I feel (personaly) that I am good at my job.. love my job and having never fallen out with anyone in the 20++ years I have been with the company have remained loyal to the brand.. I would love that brand to continue for my passengers and my company. Yes agree things need to change but this comes through negotiation when you are in a union.. My contract states that I had to be in a union. and lets face it even Mr Walsh was a union rep.
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It is worth noting that this thread has been running in one form or another for probably 18 months or more!
The format at the moment seems to be that a new ppruner comes on and posts a BASSA "fact" that has been proven as rubbish dozens of times before eg. the issue of no negotiating. One of the "resident attack dogs" then provides the facts (yet again). The new ppruner tries a bit of a defence and then runs off crying victimisation and bullying, etc... Every now and again we'll get a BA pilot on here who is a bit understanding of BASSA (because his CC wife has lost her ST) with some platitudes about world peace and feeding the poor.
Still, we continue in circles with no resolution. Thank you to the Mods for your enduring patience.
The format at the moment seems to be that a new ppruner comes on and posts a BASSA "fact" that has been proven as rubbish dozens of times before eg. the issue of no negotiating. One of the "resident attack dogs" then provides the facts (yet again). The new ppruner tries a bit of a defence and then runs off crying victimisation and bullying, etc... Every now and again we'll get a BA pilot on here who is a bit understanding of BASSA (because his CC wife has lost her ST) with some platitudes about world peace and feeding the poor.
Still, we continue in circles with no resolution. Thank you to the Mods for your enduring patience.
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Dave - respect you and your opinion too.
Everything you said, time with company, pride in brand, family (who also work for BA) moved house many times for BA/my own career (over 6 times now) applies to me also. We only differ because my view is that times change and we have to adapt - both personally and as a business and I belive that as a result the T+C conditions I joined on are now irelevant. True I have to earn enough to support my family but I believe that if it is not sustainable for me to do this in my current role with BA (and for CC I believe it is not, same with some of the jobs, bases I have worked in during the past) then I must either leave and find employment elsewhere or look to an alternative career within BA where T+C may be higher....but so may be the stress (career -v- home balance). This is no different for any of my friends that have careers/jobs outside aviation. Those who joined banks are earning significantly less and doing much more (those lucky enough to still be employed), same goes for my friends in just about every industry - why do we think we are different. My view is that aviation (wish in many respects I had not chosen as a career, despite the fact I LOVE IT) is THE MOST VUNERABLE and is hits 1st, hardest and longest for any effects to global reccession and economic downturns.
BA simply is not the company is was when I joined. If I wish to continue working for the company I have to accept that the T+C I joined on are no longer sustainable as in actual £'s are customer are paying the same for a flight now as they were when I joined. Difference is those identical £'s are worth a lot less some 20+ years later!!!!!!
Everything you said, time with company, pride in brand, family (who also work for BA) moved house many times for BA/my own career (over 6 times now) applies to me also. We only differ because my view is that times change and we have to adapt - both personally and as a business and I belive that as a result the T+C conditions I joined on are now irelevant. True I have to earn enough to support my family but I believe that if it is not sustainable for me to do this in my current role with BA (and for CC I believe it is not, same with some of the jobs, bases I have worked in during the past) then I must either leave and find employment elsewhere or look to an alternative career within BA where T+C may be higher....but so may be the stress (career -v- home balance). This is no different for any of my friends that have careers/jobs outside aviation. Those who joined banks are earning significantly less and doing much more (those lucky enough to still be employed), same goes for my friends in just about every industry - why do we think we are different. My view is that aviation (wish in many respects I had not chosen as a career, despite the fact I LOVE IT) is THE MOST VUNERABLE and is hits 1st, hardest and longest for any effects to global reccession and economic downturns.
BA simply is not the company is was when I joined. If I wish to continue working for the company I have to accept that the T+C I joined on are no longer sustainable as in actual £'s are customer are paying the same for a flight now as they were when I joined. Difference is those identical £'s are worth a lot less some 20+ years later!!!!!!
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Oh...and I forgot to mention that I was a union rep too for several years before I realised they were more corrupt (in my opion) than the management. I had joined and been elected as I thought we I could bring sensible discussion to the table: I soon realised that this was not what was required and it was all about point scoring, saving face, acting tough and showing how good the union was by 'biffing the management on the nose' - regardless of the topic being discussed and how good/bad an idea it was. The rule was 'listen, mistrust, say no, counter with something else, tell employees how good you are/how bad management are.
Not my idea of morals and/or negotiation. Before anyone asks it was the TGWU.
Not my idea of morals and/or negotiation. Before anyone asks it was the TGWU.
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Hotwings new people are alowed to join the debate even if it is going over old ground.. by talking and listening you never know we may all learn something new.. re pilots with relatives as crew.. that must be such a hard place to be in.. I cant imagine the life choices that have had to be made in some households..Everyone, new posters or old has the right to an opinion..it would however be nice to keep those opinions respectful. we on this forum are never going to be the ones who resolve this however we all need to work together now and when its all over...
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lol Ops....taken as a joke lol
Ops this isnt a choice for me.. I know nothing else and love the job that I feel I do very well..
I dont want to do anything else.. I agree changes are happening everywhere but what is your debte with regard to the fat cats getting fatter whilst we have to make these life choices...
I have looked very closely at bothsides of the argument and been fortunate to be able to talk to people at the top who form both sides of the argument after listening I chose to back BASSA...I am now regarded as a millitant... I disagree.. I just stood up for what I believed in..I am not blinded to the things that are right or wrong with the union we are not brainwashed we just believe strongly in our rights.. the same way you believe in yours.
Ops this isnt a choice for me.. I know nothing else and love the job that I feel I do very well..
I dont want to do anything else.. I agree changes are happening everywhere but what is your debte with regard to the fat cats getting fatter whilst we have to make these life choices...
I have looked very closely at bothsides of the argument and been fortunate to be able to talk to people at the top who form both sides of the argument after listening I chose to back BASSA...I am now regarded as a millitant... I disagree.. I just stood up for what I believed in..I am not blinded to the things that are right or wrong with the union we are not brainwashed we just believe strongly in our rights.. the same way you believe in yours.
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dave3 you said
all forms of closed shops in the UK are illegal, see below, I know you wrote "had" as if in the past tense, but I would hate you to be under the illusion that you had to belong to BASSA, or any other union for that matter
My contract states that I had to be in a union
All forms of closed shops in the UK are strictly illegal under section 137(1)(a) of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992 (c. 52
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Pornpants agree that was changed, but that is what was in my original contract... with regard to the WE it was stated that you had to be part of the union.. I for one wanted and still continue to want to be part of the union.. it carved my T&C's..
lets not forget nearly every department in BA has members in a union.
My debate is that be it BALPA (sorry mod only one mention) TGWU, cabin crew 89, BASSA or what ever your political or non political view we live in a democracy and with that comes freedom of speech and the right to belong to political or non political parties..along with that comes respectful open debate
lets not forget nearly every department in BA has members in a union.
My debate is that be it BALPA (sorry mod only one mention) TGWU, cabin crew 89, BASSA or what ever your political or non political view we live in a democracy and with that comes freedom of speech and the right to belong to political or non political parties..along with that comes respectful open debate
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dave3,
Of course new people are allowed to join the debate and they can't be expected to have read the hundreds of preceeding pages. However, they shouldn't run off crying when hear something that they don't like. Some of the "resident attack dogs" have honed their arguements over many many months! What a shame, though, that the other forums (BASSA and CF) do not allow such a freedom of opinion.
As I said, we continue in circles with no resolution.
The issue of the BALPA v BASSA household is an interesting one. I do know of one skipper who persuaded his wife to strike, insisting that she'd be okay as she could still use his staff travel. Oops!
Of course new people are allowed to join the debate and they can't be expected to have read the hundreds of preceeding pages. However, they shouldn't run off crying when hear something that they don't like. Some of the "resident attack dogs" have honed their arguements over many many months! What a shame, though, that the other forums (BASSA and CF) do not allow such a freedom of opinion.
As I said, we continue in circles with no resolution.
The issue of the BALPA v BASSA household is an interesting one. I do know of one skipper who persuaded his wife to strike, insisting that she'd be okay as she could still use his staff travel. Oops!
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Dave - for what its worth you don't sound like a millitant to me. Perhaps an idealist, an optimist or naive and I really don't mean any of those as an insult.
I learned a hard lesson many years ago, that a business primary role is to create wealth - no other reason. Not to create good jobs/lifestyles for those who it employs. Now sometimes those do go hand-in-hand and we have all experienced that (good wages, perks, best hotels, staff travel) but when the business is not creating wealth (such as BA) then it has to take any actions it can to ensure it delivers its primary goal. If it cannot create more income (we can sell seats but not at the prices we need, or we can sell at the prices we need but at 20% load factor) or reduce other costs like fuel (biggests costs fuel and staff) then we have to reduce staff costs (which continue to rise).
It is unfair perhaps that 'fat cats' get rises but that is their role - yours and mine are our respective roles within the company. Those are a result of our career choice and we have only ourselves to blame (sadly) - those who make more profit for the company will seen to be successful at their job and will be rewarded as a result. If the higher BA mgt can save 10million costs (anually) and then get a 1 off payment of several million themselves, it is good for BA. Not great for you and I but that is life. Life is not fair. We live in a capitalist country/economy. doesn't seem fait I know but at least its transparent - the alternative 'communism/socialsim' - great (wonderful in fact) in theory but in reality the end product is the same as capitalism but just not so honest and transparent about it. Power corrupts, that's why unions will always let you down (imho).
I learned a hard lesson many years ago, that a business primary role is to create wealth - no other reason. Not to create good jobs/lifestyles for those who it employs. Now sometimes those do go hand-in-hand and we have all experienced that (good wages, perks, best hotels, staff travel) but when the business is not creating wealth (such as BA) then it has to take any actions it can to ensure it delivers its primary goal. If it cannot create more income (we can sell seats but not at the prices we need, or we can sell at the prices we need but at 20% load factor) or reduce other costs like fuel (biggests costs fuel and staff) then we have to reduce staff costs (which continue to rise).
It is unfair perhaps that 'fat cats' get rises but that is their role - yours and mine are our respective roles within the company. Those are a result of our career choice and we have only ourselves to blame (sadly) - those who make more profit for the company will seen to be successful at their job and will be rewarded as a result. If the higher BA mgt can save 10million costs (anually) and then get a 1 off payment of several million themselves, it is good for BA. Not great for you and I but that is life. Life is not fair. We live in a capitalist country/economy. doesn't seem fait I know but at least its transparent - the alternative 'communism/socialsim' - great (wonderful in fact) in theory but in reality the end product is the same as capitalism but just not so honest and transparent about it. Power corrupts, that's why unions will always let you down (imho).
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Hotwings the BALPA V BASSA household given different opinions must be such a sad place to be.. however some agreed to disagree, some agreed to agree, some agreed to divorce..owch...
again this will all be over one day whatever the outcome the debate will then move onto how the hell do we get CRM working...I think when this is over the real hard work will begin
again this will all be over one day whatever the outcome the debate will then move onto how the hell do we get CRM working...I think when this is over the real hard work will begin
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Ops. The model implimented at John Lewis seems to have worked very well . About 13 years ago BA took £5000 approx per year off each of the cabin crew member at the bases to purchase new planes...these planes never materialised... ( we felt it was like asking a builder working for Wimpeys to bring in the bricks and cement in order to build houses so Wimpey could make the profit. Hardly the actions of a blue chip company) so sacrifices have been made by the cabin crew community. I think the John Lewis model is a fantastic one all be it a different industry but it works and everyone from the bottom to the top is happy, something that perhaps should be looked at BA.
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dave3
John Lewis don't have anything in the way of union representation, unlike BA, whilst it is your right to join a union, few do
Perhaps BA would be a better place without its unions I'll let you decide
John Lewis staff delighted with 13% bonus | Business | guardian.co.uk
slightly old I know, but hasn't BASSA stance deprived you of the offer of shares?
John Lewis don't have anything in the way of union representation, unlike BA, whilst it is your right to join a union, few do
Perhaps BA would be a better place without its unions
I'll let you decideJohn Lewis staff delighted with 13% bonus | Business | guardian.co.uk
slightly old I know, but hasn't BASSA stance deprived you of the offer of shares?
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dave3,
Do you really mean CRM or do you mean flightcrew/cabin crew relations? I've not seen any huge CRM issues, other than the mild distraction of strikers v non-strikers. Perhaps on the bus it's better because we have less crew and better team work?
I'm also wondering what classifies this dispute as being over? MF has started, with continuing recruitment. There is no sign of another strike or even a strike ballot. Has the dispute already ended?
Do you really mean CRM or do you mean flightcrew/cabin crew relations? I've not seen any huge CRM issues, other than the mild distraction of strikers v non-strikers. Perhaps on the bus it's better because we have less crew and better team work?
I'm also wondering what classifies this dispute as being over? MF has started, with continuing recruitment. There is no sign of another strike or even a strike ballot. Has the dispute already ended?
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I think you'll find that nearly everybody wil just give a big sigh of relief when it's finally over.
One side might still be holding out in the meantime for their Staff Travel and the hope that BA can forget the past sins of those who found themselves in the Disciplinary Processes.
Another side might still hold the views that they "got what they deserved" and "serves them right".
Either way around; CRM should not be an issue - it's a point of Law so we should all remain objective and respect each other.
However, we might also go on these forums and try and find out from each other exactly how we ended up at these crossroads in the first place and keep it up as topical conversation long after Lee Harvey Oswald is long forgotten.
One side might still be holding out in the meantime for their Staff Travel and the hope that BA can forget the past sins of those who found themselves in the Disciplinary Processes.
Another side might still hold the views that they "got what they deserved" and "serves them right".
Either way around; CRM should not be an issue - it's a point of Law so we should all remain objective and respect each other.
However, we might also go on these forums and try and find out from each other exactly how we ended up at these crossroads in the first place and keep it up as topical conversation long after Lee Harvey Oswald is long forgotten.