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British Airways vs. BASSA (current Airline Staff Only)

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British Airways vs. BASSA (current Airline Staff Only)

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Old 8th Aug 2010, 14:13
  #1841 (permalink)  
 
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Of course the biggest savings Walsh is likely to make, is when he attacks the pay and T&C's of his Flight Crew
You just can't leave it alone can you?

If you and your BASSA pals had negotiated like ALL departments in BA, you would'nt need to attack others with your scaremongering twaddle.

You're up against a CEO that is standing up to you. Willie's mistake, and, more to the point, his predecessors, was that they did'nt clip BASSA's wings a long time ago.

Time to fall in line and drop the self importance.
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Old 8th Aug 2010, 15:08
  #1842 (permalink)  
 
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Ranger there is no scaremongering. Just look at what happened in the USA.

CB. If BA wants to reduce crew and shaft its reputation, that is up to them. I believe it is a false economy. BA in the past has had a better image and reputation for service than say VIRGIN, but if Walsh wants to dumb down BA to that level, then really I personally do not care. My only concern is that the health and welfare of crew are not affected and the service is rolled back accordingly.

Walsh's theory is that the "network" that BA and its OneWorld partners has, will trap passengers into flying with the alliance. Choice will be reduced and fares will go up. It is anti-competitve and passengers unlike other types of travel, will in the future face an ever decreasing standard of service and safety as minimum wage employees take over.

Pornpants/Timothy Claypole/PNS: Isn't it strange that here you are rooting for a BASSA loss in the court case, that is directly going to influence you and your job as a CSD in a negative way. It is a lose lose situation for you. I suppose if BASSA wins, you will be more than happy to reap the benefits of something you have tried your best to undermine.

Unbelievable.
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Old 8th Aug 2010, 15:36
  #1843 (permalink)  
 
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HV as you seem to have difficulty remembering who you are and what you do I feel that the same distinction must be applied to the rest of your ramblings.

BASSA have failed in their duty of care fortheir membership and failed in their attempt to bring BA down. Whatever punitive excuses they come up with the fact cannot be ignored that the improvement in the companies position is as a result of the hard work and sacrifices of the rest of the staff. Thus we don't.agree with the self serving attitude of BASSA.
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Old 8th Aug 2010, 15:44
  #1844 (permalink)  
 
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hector, duggie, duncan


Isn't it strange that here you are rooting for a BASSA loss in the court case
Not really, just trying to understand what BASSA hope to achieve, and thought you might be able to give me your invaluable insight

that is directly going to influence you and your job as a CSD in a negative way
care to elaborate? nah thought not
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Old 8th Aug 2010, 15:46
  #1845 (permalink)  
 
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So PNS. When are you going to stand as secretary for the PCCC?
Pornpants/Timothy Claypole/PNS: Isn't it strange that here you are rooting for a BASSA loss in the court case, that is directly going to influence you and your job as a CSD in a negative way. It is a lose lose situation for you. I suppose if BASSA wins, you will be more than happy to reap the benefits of something you have tried your best to undermine.
Hector Vector,
If it's the same PNS you are referring to, he has never posted on this thread to my knowledge, and also has a distinct style of writing.

You could follow in the footsteps of Walsh: be an aggressive and militant union negotiator and then cross over into management
Historically, isn't that what the BASSA reps have done if you have a look at the Devereaux family and the likes of Steve Farey ?
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Old 8th Aug 2010, 16:17
  #1846 (permalink)  
 
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Post 1674 3rd of August 2010

Hector Vector said,
My wife who is cabin crew with BA informs me that there are now trials to reduce the crew complement on the 744 down to four in WT.

Looks like BA's ambition of doing away with the Psr grade is coming to fruition. All those senior Pursers who thought they could hide in the galleys in the twilight years of their careers marking up SPML's, are going to be very upset now being stuck out on a trolley. Many of whom did not support the strike for fear of losing their Staff Travel. You live and learn; they should have supported their union.

Still there seems to be plenty of Pursers volunteering to work down at the moment. You have to be careful what you wish for these days.

What goes around, comes around
52049er,
Here's the answer you were looking for.

Hector Vector,
Are you a retired CSD (guest of easy, you know what I mean,) or DH?
DH 's wife is also a Purser on Worldwide as you very well know.
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Old 8th Aug 2010, 18:33
  #1847 (permalink)  
 
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The more I think about it now the more I think BASSA have failed us - BIG TIME sadly!

Mixed Fleet is not great news for us - but we did have the option last year against it - I really could cry when I think that the way we are working now (with temps working to new agreements/pay alongside us) with us remaining on current fleets and no new fleet set up could be the way forward - and BA discussed it a few times. With shares. With bonus ticket Meaning we get into profit and the savings we may have had to endure we would still get rewarded for profit. OMG! It just makes me anrgy to be honest! We didn't even get to see some of the offers apparently - and it wasn't put to the membership of BASSA or AMICUS.

Maybe a book/movie could be made in the future. How a Union can fail a a membership. Plenty of examples could be from the BA dispute.

Of course I do feel for some of the agreements the temps are working to. But if they were that bad - had we had a progressive union that was reasonable and worked with the company AND employees then it could be improved. But now there will be a real them and us with regards to Mixed Fleet crews!

I understand why costs need to come down, and as BF has said there were only a few options I suppose - however some of the options he discussed with (intergrated fleet) were a much better compromise!

Well - after my initial reservations of the proposal which I have expressed - I hope any future offers don't get any worse (especially for those of us in the Union who have stayed to Vote NO to strike!)
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Old 8th Aug 2010, 20:10
  #1848 (permalink)  
 
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Slidebustle. BASSA or any other union could not prevent a company introducing new contracts if it wants to. BALPA could not stop OpenSkies for instance.The point is that these new contracts and working conditions are not "imposed" on existing employees, who have such a thing as a contract. BALPA operate in exactly the same way.

BA will get far more in savings than BASSA offered from existing contract crew, by eventually displacing those crew with new low pay contracts.The laughable thing is that BA's pilots are in cloud cuckoo land, and think their 'legacy' pay will last forever. Two ringer pilots joining now flying the Airbus or 737-400 out of LGW, will never achieve the salaries that the Captains sitting next to them enjoy right now. That is a fact. My advice to the pilots here, is to worry about fighting your own corner and leave the cabin crew alone to deal with their situation. If not, we will have plenty of time to gloat when you are under the cosh.

BASSA have not failed, but Walsh has. He has failed to break the strike and the union. What is he going to do now?
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Old 8th Aug 2010, 20:30
  #1849 (permalink)  
 
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What is Mr. Walsh going to do now? Well perhaps he will just carry on running BA as normal. He has his cost savings from the imposition. He has his cost savings to cover the cost of the strikes coming from 'New Fleet'. He has kept his promise of not returning staff travel to the strikers.

What do you think he needs to do? It seems to me he already has everything he wants. This dispute is over unless BASSA decides to do something so the question is what is BASSA going to do? Your court cases seem pretty thin to me. Your strike action has failed to push Mr. Walsh to the negotiating table. I can't see any future strikes getting him to the table either. BA is simply getting on with business as usual. Meanwhile the commuters who went on strike are suffering without their staff travel. How long do you think it will be before they start leaving the company because they cannot afford to keep working?

I really cannot fathom where Mr. Walsh has failed. He has done a stunning job treading where his predecessors have not dared to tread, and I hope he continues to do so.
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Old 8th Aug 2010, 20:34
  #1850 (permalink)  
 
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Cloud Cuckoo land

HV/DH/Duggie,
Always comes back to the pilots doesn't it?
I'm not going to rehash the reasons why you are utterly wrong. Suffice it to say that the pilots are most certainly not in cloud cuckoo land. We are sensible enough to realise that we have to do all we can to maintain one cohesive pilot workforce. That's why the pain of the last round of negotiations was spread across all.
BASSA at all points have contorted to maintain the pay and conditions of a very select few on old contracts. Possibly if you avoided sacrificing cabin crew groups, you would have a more unified strike, and stronger negotiating stance.

PS Believe me, we are under no illusions as to the future, but we basically work to annual legal hour limitations, and have comparable pay per hour flown to competitors... Unlike BA cabin crew.
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Old 8th Aug 2010, 20:35
  #1851 (permalink)  
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BASSA have not failed, but Walsh has. He has failed to break the strike and the union. What is he going to do now?
Teensy point but he has broken the strike. There is no strike going on at the moment as far as i'm aware, nor is there any prospect of one. Ergo the strike is broken.

You could of course be on strike now. You have a perfectly valid mandate for continuing action. Why isnt it being used? Even unprotected surely with the glorious support it had there is no risk in taking strike action now because BA couldnt replace you all could they?

So why is there no action at present. Unite dont even have the guts to let some relatively minor industrial action with the window blinds. If BASSA are in such a position of strength theres no risk.

Not expecting an answer.
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Old 8th Aug 2010, 20:39
  #1852 (permalink)  
 
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So Hector, how is cloud cuckoo land by the way?

When a union refuses to negotiate, or submits what can only be described as joke offers. there comes a time where changes MIGHT be imposed. Look at the offer that was given last June to BASSA. An intelligent person might be upset to see where the crew are now. Those who unable to make up their own mind without brainwashing (obviously that's how BASSA sees the crew as it didn't even show it to them) CHOOSE to play the victim, wallow in self pity, and ignores the facts. That's what you continually do on this forum, and I truly hope you are not representative of the poor strikers, who have been led down the road to ruin.

As for your info on pilots, you know nothing. Nothing. Fact. So save your idle speculation for the BASSA forum, where it can be said unchallenged. And perhaps mislead one or two other poor crew who are looking for real brave leadership, and instead get distasteful war references and ABBA lyrics.
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Old 8th Aug 2010, 21:11
  #1853 (permalink)  
 
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BASSA have not failed, but Walsh has. He has failed to break the strike and the union. What is he going to do now?
Count how much he will save but not giving cabin crew the two annual payrises that are in the latest offer BASSA turned down?
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Old 8th Aug 2010, 21:38
  #1854 (permalink)  
 
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Hector Vector/Duggie Fashion,
Your cover is blown, you are the same person who can't decide who you are from one post to another. You talk about your wife being a crew member for BA then claim you are a CSD with 30 years experience. Make up you mind and then post under one name please. As mentioned by other posters, why are you harping on about the Pilot's pay and T's and C's? This is a cabin crew thread.
Still waiting for an answer from you. Are you a retired CSD?

Mods,
There is a lack of cabin crew posts here which is a real shame.
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Old 8th Aug 2010, 21:51
  #1855 (permalink)  
 
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Hector Vector wrote:
Walsh's theory is that the "network" that BA and its OneWorld partners has, will trap passengers into flying with the alliance. Choice will be reduced and fares will go up. It is anti-competitve and passengers unlike other types of travel, will in the future face an ever decreasing standard of service and safety as minimum wage employees take over.
I am surprised to find myself in agreement with you. Of course alliances, mergers and takeovers are anti-competitive, and an awful lot of these have been happening recently (DL/NW, BA/IB/AA, UA/CO), but the cabin crew dispute was never about competition or standards of on-board service.

A responsible union would have accepted the need for reduced crew complements and worked to add back crew on those flights which were causing excessive workload. But this never happened, did it?
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Old 9th Aug 2010, 07:14
  #1856 (permalink)  
 
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CB. You are completely wrong again.

BASSA has agreed to reductions in crew complements in the past. After 9/11 for instance when First cabins were closed and crew numbers reduced. Obviously the recession was not such an urgent proposition, as this solution was rejected.

We have been flying with empty First cabins and full crew, yet only last year Willie said that the airline had just six months to survive. Sounds like a worse situation than 9/11 to me. So why didn't he take the immediate reduction in crew costs this previous solution offered? Offered career breaks, unpaid leave, more part time.....

No because the agenda was to use the recession as an excuse to force through "structural change", aka union busting. Seems like BA is awash with money to see through this agenda, paid for in part by the salary reductions given up on behalf of BA's pilots by BALPA. No wonder so many pilots have resigned from the association and have joined the Air Transport section of UNITE. At the end of the day, you only need the legal protection in case you put a wheel on the grass. BA pilots would never strike, as Willie well knows.
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Old 9th Aug 2010, 07:28
  #1857 (permalink)  
 
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Gotcha.

How do BASSA know the recession was not such an urgent proposition as it's widely accepted they declined the offer to look in detail at the company accounts.

Can I tip my hat to you for brilliantly managing to link pilots with the cabin crew strike? It's now our fault for agreeing changes with the company as this has funded their ability to take you on. Brilliant, just brilliant.

And back to my gotcha. Try digging around the Unite website as an airline pilot seeking union support - it directs you to BALPA. Once again, pure conjecture designed to do no more than rabble rouse and, if I recall correctly, this "Pilots leaving in droves to join unite" was done to death some months ago.

So, answer Tiramisu's question, are you crew, retired crew, a private pilot, airline pilot, webmaster, kitchen fitter, branch secretary or do you just go as the mood takes you as you feel your agenda is more important than the messenger so you can flex the truth as the need takes you?

MrB

PS Check out Viking and Laval cases.
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Old 9th Aug 2010, 09:49
  #1858 (permalink)  
 
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Hector

BA has needed structural changes for many years now ,not only in cabin crew but right across the airline.

If the airline does not produce enough profits to reinvest in the company the company will do what Pan Am,TWA,Swiss Air and recently Mexicana did, run out of cash and go out of business-Where would that leave everbody?

BA has some of the best cabin crew in the industry and rightly deserve to be paid above the average salary but you cannot have union officials telling the management how to run the business.

Perhaps its time for some new people at the helm of BASSA.
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Old 9th Aug 2010, 09:56
  #1859 (permalink)  
 
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Duncan Vector

*** I hope the Mods will allow this to stay, as it is integral to the dispute and the way that BASSA operate and the (in)sanity of Duncan Holley. ***

I was absolutely disgusted to see the public "outing" of an anonymous (like most on there) poster on the BASSA forum as one who "went to work".

This poor person took issue with the latest fact-less ABBA/Vietnam (News)letter from Duncan. Duncan then named and shamed this person, BLAMED THEM FOR PUTTING REPS AT RISK , suggested they resign from BASSA and opened the floodgates to further posts against said person. They have now left BASSA.

Here's the text.

Ok enough
I know the identity of XXX X XXXXX.
I also know he broke the strike.
People like him should shrink away and hide under a stone. I would then ignore him. They have the right to do that.
But he came on here taunting and starting a thread which was just trouble making and totally inexcusable.

I have had quite a few messages from genuine strikers who are telling me a lot of strike breakers are trying to ingratiate themselves by claiming XXXX status.
Tonight another long haul rep has been suspended. Nicky Marcus has been doing a fantastic job representing many of the Facebook and dispute related crew.
She has now been suspended for her work on their cases. People like XXX X XXXXX are putting people like Nicky's jobs at risk.

Therefore I think XXX X XXXXX has lost his right to be anonymous.

XXXXX XXXXX WW Purser and - I am ashamed to admit it - ex BASSA rep, I think by you starting this thread you deserve to be outed.
I also invite you to resign so BASSA can rid themselves from people like yourself.
This dispute is getting nasty but you brought this on yourself I am afraid and I will not have good loyal members or reps put at risk by people such as yourself.

Duncan Holley
Now, my question to the rest of you BASSA members is this: Is this really what you should expect from your Union - professional body to which you pay your fees? Is this kind of behaviour in any way acceptable? Since when did Union membership come with the caveat that you must agree with everything the Reps do or say - else you will be publicly humiliated and driven out?

This single incident, more than most others show just how far DH has removed himself from reality. Animal Farm all over again...

The Reps cannot be disagreed with
The Reps can delay elections to make sure they stay in office
The Reps can continue as Reps, even though they are no longer serving CC
The Reps will feather their own nests to the detriment of all others
Some members (those who agree with us) are more equal than others

DH and the reps that sanction his newletters and behaviour are no longer rational and yet they hold SO much influence over your careers. How on earth are they still in Office? You deserve better and you need it SOON, before BASSA take us all down with them.

Nutjob

Last edited by Nutjob; 9th Aug 2010 at 10:14.
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Old 9th Aug 2010, 10:18
  #1860 (permalink)  
 
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Ahh... he has taken to expelling dissenters from the Cult.

If I was a sensible BASSA member reading the above I would be cancelling my membership now.

Perhaps it will now descend into a hard-core cult ending where most sensible people leave, but a few die-hards remain and go down (get sacked) in an industrially suicidal ending, maybe with wildcat action?

Traditionally, the cult leader gets away with it though, by slipping away from the compound in a secret tunnel just before the SWAT team moves in... oh, that's happened already!

Seriously though you have to feel for the poor Purser who has been allegedly intimidated in this way, after all, DH has been sacked already so it's difficult to see what BA could do, if it is all true.
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