British Airways vs. BASSA (current Airline Staff Only)
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: London
Posts: 252
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But surely Cabin Crew costs could be reduced without getting rid of us in the next few years!?!
Bettys girls, maybe you are right, maybe I am worrying too much. It is just I am in my 20s, I enjoy my job, would like to progress, but don't want to stay to find in 15 years I have to take a huge paycut and go on Mixed Fleet or leave - I know noone knows what will happen but for us to practically agree to that now is abit weird.
Like I say I supported BA and didn't strike - BAs offer is reasonable in many areas and I am not too sure on striking being a good or futile thing BUT I am starting to wonder how this new proposal will affect my career and many others - particularly those of us who have over 20 years left who are probably in the most uncertain position.
Bettys girls, maybe you are right, maybe I am worrying too much. It is just I am in my 20s, I enjoy my job, would like to progress, but don't want to stay to find in 15 years I have to take a huge paycut and go on Mixed Fleet or leave - I know noone knows what will happen but for us to practically agree to that now is abit weird.
Like I say I supported BA and didn't strike - BAs offer is reasonable in many areas and I am not too sure on striking being a good or futile thing BUT I am starting to wonder how this new proposal will affect my career and many others - particularly those of us who have over 20 years left who are probably in the most uncertain position.
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Joburg
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Like I say I supported BA and didn't strike - BAs offer is reasonable in many areas and I am not too sure on striking being a good or futile thing BUT I am starting to wonder how this new proposal will affect my career and many others - particularly those of us who have over 20 years left who are probably in the most uncertain position.
If you are after a career in BA, you will be disappointed because of Mixed Fleet. Both EF and WW fleets will only become smaller, not larger. I don't think there will be too many promotion opportunities in the future. Should an opportunity arise, many crew, especially those on WW who were recruited in 1997, will apply as they have been waiting a long time for promotions.
Join Date: May 2010
Location: maidenhead
Posts: 941
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I really think that crew are being scared by people who have not even read the new offer.
It quite simply does not make sense for BF to employ people on New Fleet while leaving us with no work. That would eat up all the savings he gets from NEw Fleet. Why pay people not to work. It just does not make sense.
BA is going to make hugh savings with New Fleet and it will gradualy get bigger as we gradually retire and leave. He does not want us to work on new fleet. He is happy to make his big savings with New Fleet as we get smaller. It will take years.
Having said that he will probably come back and ask for more efficiency savings from us at some time in the future but we all know that there are savings that could have been offered now by our union and we might have not been in this mess.
Striking will just cause him to sack some crew and that will only make New Fleet bigger.
There are lots of things that I dont like. Like Willie Walsh, the low pay being offered on New Fleet and the way BASSA have handled this whole issue and made it worse. But BA, with the help of BASSA, have just laid a golden egg eg. New Fleet and they will not give it up now that it has been laid. We just now need the union to stop scwabling about staff travel and get on and look after all our interests and work with the company.
It is too late now, thanks to our useless union, they are pushing ahead with New Fleet and there is no stopping it now.
It quite simply does not make sense for BF to employ people on New Fleet while leaving us with no work. That would eat up all the savings he gets from NEw Fleet. Why pay people not to work. It just does not make sense.
BA is going to make hugh savings with New Fleet and it will gradualy get bigger as we gradually retire and leave. He does not want us to work on new fleet. He is happy to make his big savings with New Fleet as we get smaller. It will take years.
Having said that he will probably come back and ask for more efficiency savings from us at some time in the future but we all know that there are savings that could have been offered now by our union and we might have not been in this mess.
Striking will just cause him to sack some crew and that will only make New Fleet bigger.
There are lots of things that I dont like. Like Willie Walsh, the low pay being offered on New Fleet and the way BASSA have handled this whole issue and made it worse. But BA, with the help of BASSA, have just laid a golden egg eg. New Fleet and they will not give it up now that it has been laid. We just now need the union to stop scwabling about staff travel and get on and look after all our interests and work with the company.
It is too late now, thanks to our useless union, they are pushing ahead with New Fleet and there is no stopping it now.
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: London
Posts: 379
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SlideBustle, who says that BA will get rid of you in the next few years? Hasn't BA said exactly the opposite?
You have plenty of time to sort out your job and career. This is a luxury enjoyed by few outside BA.
You have plenty of time to sort out your job and career. This is a luxury enjoyed by few outside BA.
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: england
Age: 60
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Betty girl,
I suggest you go back and read your post, you accused me of several things.
None of them very flattering, I thank you again.
The way you posted tells me why you may think the way you do.
I feel that you do not understand what we are fighting for and have taken the easy route.
Now if that is what you chose to do I have no problem, you don’t back the union so you should go to work and accept what ever deal BA offer.
Go over to MF you will probably enjoy challenge.
People seem to struggle with accepting the fact the WW is out to break the union, 100 academics have stated this and many articles in the press have seen through this fiasco.
We may have to accept a deal that is not what we would have ultimately desired.
I do not believe that we have ever had an offer that has been possible to accept.
The latest offer is nothing short of an insult, This is an attempt to divide the crew community even more and ultimately de-unionise the company.
People cry on here for PCCC, it is a staff association run by the management how do you think that would benefit the workforce?
I suggest you go back and read your post, you accused me of several things.
None of them very flattering, I thank you again.
The way you posted tells me why you may think the way you do.
I feel that you do not understand what we are fighting for and have taken the easy route.
Now if that is what you chose to do I have no problem, you don’t back the union so you should go to work and accept what ever deal BA offer.
Go over to MF you will probably enjoy challenge.
People seem to struggle with accepting the fact the WW is out to break the union, 100 academics have stated this and many articles in the press have seen through this fiasco.
We may have to accept a deal that is not what we would have ultimately desired.
I do not believe that we have ever had an offer that has been possible to accept.
The latest offer is nothing short of an insult, This is an attempt to divide the crew community even more and ultimately de-unionise the company.
People cry on here for PCCC, it is a staff association run by the management how do you think that would benefit the workforce?
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: uk
Age: 45
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If my post does not make sense to someone here, they should read it again. if still does not make sense, I suggest they go to another forum that other posts may make more sense to such people. (bassa, as well as crew forum)
I have tried to read more than once certain posts by one author that do not make any sense at all.
Just to remind Ava hannah, where does this 80% come from?
How many crew are in ba?
of those, how many are in bassa?
of those how many did vote?
of those, how many voted for ia?
and regarding this ballot, ask your reps, to tell you how many are still in bassa? How many will vote yes this time???
after you make your deductions, then you will realise that you are the minority. Not that i am bothered about numbers. I was in the crc every single day and we were all crew. No dogs, cats, children (for Christ's sake) and other people, that were not crew at all. (not to mention those who after their flight, changed into civvies and went to bedfont)
Yes, pilots may wear balpa lanyards, but who sees them? They do not provoke anyone. A pilot can go to work unshaved or he can remove his tie in the flight deck. We cannot. We have to wear our uniform according to standards. And I have not seen any pilot with crew bag decorated like christmas tree, full of balpa tags and "vote yes" stickers, even during their disagreement reg open skies.
I have tried to read more than once certain posts by one author that do not make any sense at all.
Just to remind Ava hannah, where does this 80% come from?
How many crew are in ba?
of those, how many are in bassa?
of those how many did vote?
of those, how many voted for ia?
and regarding this ballot, ask your reps, to tell you how many are still in bassa? How many will vote yes this time???
after you make your deductions, then you will realise that you are the minority. Not that i am bothered about numbers. I was in the crc every single day and we were all crew. No dogs, cats, children (for Christ's sake) and other people, that were not crew at all. (not to mention those who after their flight, changed into civvies and went to bedfont)
Yes, pilots may wear balpa lanyards, but who sees them? They do not provoke anyone. A pilot can go to work unshaved or he can remove his tie in the flight deck. We cannot. We have to wear our uniform according to standards. And I have not seen any pilot with crew bag decorated like christmas tree, full of balpa tags and "vote yes" stickers, even during their disagreement reg open skies.
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: London
Posts: 252
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fume Event, At least try to be civil! It is people like you that do UNITE/BASSA no good! Even if they have valid points (which I now think they do!) people are turned off because of the attitude of some people who support BASSA.
Ava Hannah, thanks for being civil! And I agree with you - that clarification is needed. Well actually, if I am fully honest I would like UNITE to pursue the intergrated approach once again. Whether that would fall on deaf ears remains to be seen but I think it would secure all of our futures. However cabin crew costs will still reduce and reduce more and more for the future with new recruits but will boost the awful morale we have now, and maybe improve current IR, and also ensure people can have a career. And not become demorilised, and demotivated!
I AM re-evaluating my position and stance on this as I have to think long and hard, maybe I made a mistake Fume Event, but this isn't science FE, it is very diffucult for people! And I still respect peoples decisions, opinions. I like to get the facts and WIIFM about things and base my decision on that. If you disagree with someone, explain why you disagree and if you want us to strike - explain why? What are the benefits. Also if you don't think a strike is good - explain why. But don't bully and harass, that is what the problem is at the moment at IFCE emotions are high and too many people are intimidating people for their decisions!
Ava Hannah, thanks for being civil! And I agree with you - that clarification is needed. Well actually, if I am fully honest I would like UNITE to pursue the intergrated approach once again. Whether that would fall on deaf ears remains to be seen but I think it would secure all of our futures. However cabin crew costs will still reduce and reduce more and more for the future with new recruits but will boost the awful morale we have now, and maybe improve current IR, and also ensure people can have a career. And not become demorilised, and demotivated!
I AM re-evaluating my position and stance on this as I have to think long and hard, maybe I made a mistake Fume Event, but this isn't science FE, it is very diffucult for people! And I still respect peoples decisions, opinions. I like to get the facts and WIIFM about things and base my decision on that. If you disagree with someone, explain why you disagree and if you want us to strike - explain why? What are the benefits. Also if you don't think a strike is good - explain why. But don't bully and harass, that is what the problem is at the moment at IFCE emotions are high and too many people are intimidating people for their decisions!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: UK
Age: 64
Posts: 3,586
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fume Event is now history - Many thanks to those of you who chose not to rise to the bait, but to report the posts instead.
Pat on the back guys - that's the mature way to respond, and doesn't it feel better? On behalf of all the mods - well done!
Pat on the back guys - that's the mature way to respond, and doesn't it feel better? On behalf of all the mods - well done!
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Joburg
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How many crew are in ba?
of those, how many are in bassa?
of those how many did vote?
of those, how many voted for ia?
of those, how many are in bassa?
of those how many did vote?
of those, how many voted for ia?
and regarding this ballot, ask your reps, to tell you how many are still in bassa? How many will vote yes this time???
after you make your deductions, then you will realise that you are the minority. Not that i am bothered about numbers. I was in the crc every single day and we were all crew. No dogs, cats, children (for Christ's sake) and other people, that were not crew at all. (not to mention those who after their flight, changed into civvies and went to bedfont)
Yes, pilots may wear balpa lanyards, but who sees them? They do not provoke anyone. A pilot can go to work unshaved or he can remove his tie in the flight deck. We cannot. We have to wear our uniform according to standards. And I have not seen any pilot with crew bag decorated like christmas tree, full of balpa tags and "vote yes" stickers, even during their disagreement reg open skies.
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Joburg
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It quite simply does not make sense for BF to employ people on New Fleet while leaving us with no work. That would eat up all the savings he gets from NEw Fleet. Why pay people not to work. It just does not make sense.
BA is going to make hugh savings with New Fleet and it will gradualy get bigger as we gradually retire and leave. He does not want us to work on new fleet. He is happy to make his big savings with New Fleet as we get smaller. It will take years.
Initially, BA said they would recruit only a couple of hundreds crew to Mixed Fleet. They have now changed this number to 1,250. Why? It might take a couple of years but please don't believe them when they say that in 10 years this fleet will only represent 40% of all crew. It will take less than that.
Ava,
Surely it must be obvious to you that MF has come in, as a larger fleet initially, because so many cabin crew have cost the company a lot of money. The savings from MF will recoup the cost of the strike many times over.
There was never any chance that existing cabin crew and new cabin crew would work together on the new fleet. The whole point is to operate cabin crew costs at a similar level to our competitors and also in a much more efficient manner.
I hope that cabin crew see sense and vote to accept the latest offer. If not I am sure the measures used this time will be drastic. With so many additional vcc, those who have not been on strike AND those who have at last been given an opportunity to have their say - who will actually need the strikers.
I feel that the reason that bassa are havng to even let you guys have a say is part of a plan from Untie to cut lose from the loony fringe of bassa hq!!
Surely it must be obvious to you that MF has come in, as a larger fleet initially, because so many cabin crew have cost the company a lot of money. The savings from MF will recoup the cost of the strike many times over.
There was never any chance that existing cabin crew and new cabin crew would work together on the new fleet. The whole point is to operate cabin crew costs at a similar level to our competitors and also in a much more efficient manner.
I hope that cabin crew see sense and vote to accept the latest offer. If not I am sure the measures used this time will be drastic. With so many additional vcc, those who have not been on strike AND those who have at last been given an opportunity to have their say - who will actually need the strikers.
I feel that the reason that bassa are havng to even let you guys have a say is part of a plan from Untie to cut lose from the loony fringe of bassa hq!!
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: London
Posts: 252
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To be fair sporran,
New crew COULD fly with us - infact BA even had it in a couple of their proposals and were willing to look at it!
BASSA did make a mistake in fighting crew complements when they had the oppurtunity to get rid of Mixed Fleet - BUT why can't BA continue with this option.
Plus BA say we would have to work to scheme if they worked alongside us - before it was just work abit more efficient.
Is this diliberate so that BA can say ''well crew don't want an intergrated approach'' so they can push Mixed Fleet...
It's all about compromise. BA needed to make cost savings which are being made with the crew complements. I am sure there are other ways in the future money can be saved without halting our careers in the future and building a seperate new Mixed Fleet - I am sure a happy medium could be found!
New crew COULD fly with us - infact BA even had it in a couple of their proposals and were willing to look at it!
BASSA did make a mistake in fighting crew complements when they had the oppurtunity to get rid of Mixed Fleet - BUT why can't BA continue with this option.
Plus BA say we would have to work to scheme if they worked alongside us - before it was just work abit more efficient.
Is this diliberate so that BA can say ''well crew don't want an intergrated approach'' so they can push Mixed Fleet...
It's all about compromise. BA needed to make cost savings which are being made with the crew complements. I am sure there are other ways in the future money can be saved without halting our careers in the future and building a seperate new Mixed Fleet - I am sure a happy medium could be found!
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: London
Posts: 379
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SlideBustle,
BASSA was always hostile to NF, so offered no alternative. As a result, BA has imposed Mixed Fleet with conditions which have not been negotiated.
BASSA was always hostile to NF, so offered no alternative. As a result, BA has imposed Mixed Fleet with conditions which have not been negotiated.
Join Date: May 2010
Location: London
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It does also make you wonder, at the tactics of BA, I mean I know BASSA/UNITE have CERTAINLY not been perfect, but in many ways they do a lot of good! Ie. the terms we do enjoy. And I do value agreements that we work towards.
Side Bustle, the majority of the agreements we work to were not negotiated by BASSA, they refused to negotiate!!
Prime example... the world wide agreement
I see you say that you are inclined to change your point of view because new fleet is going to start. BASSA had the chance to negotiate the entrance of new crew onto our fleets. Their response? No negotiation!
I went to work and during the second wave I met people that had changed their minds and come in. On my last trip (during the strike) I met two crew that had been together at Bedfont, I also met a girl who showed us a nasty text message she got from a friend because she worked during the first wave. Can you imagine what it was like when we met up in the bar only for her to see her friend walk in with the other crew. Priceless!
Side Bustle, the majority of the agreements we work to were not negotiated by BASSA, they refused to negotiate!!
Prime example... the world wide agreement
I see you say that you are inclined to change your point of view because new fleet is going to start. BASSA had the chance to negotiate the entrance of new crew onto our fleets. Their response? No negotiation!
I went to work and during the second wave I met people that had changed their minds and come in. On my last trip (during the strike) I met two crew that had been together at Bedfont, I also met a girl who showed us a nasty text message she got from a friend because she worked during the first wave. Can you imagine what it was like when we met up in the bar only for her to see her friend walk in with the other crew. Priceless!
Last edited by the flying nunn; 5th Jul 2010 at 23:01.
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BASSA were correct about the threat of New Fleet when they published the BA proposal under the guise of Operation Columbus.
Everything they said (BASSA) has come true.
Negotiation or not, New Fleet aka Mixed Fleet, was always going to happen.
Everything they said (BASSA) has come true.
Negotiation or not, New Fleet aka Mixed Fleet, was always going to happen.
Join Date: May 2010
Location: London
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So Douggie if everything BASSA said has come true then why didn't they do something about negotiating a good deal for those of us on the current fleets? It would have made so much more sense than refusing to negotiate.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Heathrow
Posts: 250
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Does it occur to cabin crew tah there are some 30,000 other staff at BA, large numbers of whom have not had a pay award for over 18 months and who are unlikely to see one for at least another 6 months. So to hear cabin crew, who have refused to shoulder their share of cost reductions to date, being offered a two year deal with guaranteed increases plus top up guarantees on moonthly payments and then know that some crew think this a lousy deal, well, to decribe it as galling is a bit of an understatement. Yes, crew don't get paid a fortune, but you knew that when you took the job. If it pays that badly, get out and do something that pays better. I hear enough tales of crew with degrees and post grad qualifications. The union literature is awash with the detail of so-and-so who was a trained nurse or a doctor or a teacher before becoming cabin crew. With qualifications like that there should be no shortage of openings.
The brutal truth is that BA needs to reduce its costs if it is to be profitable. The two largest cost areas are fuel, which we have a modicum of control over by hedging and staff. Cabin crew represent close to 25% of staff. It will come as no surprise that they probably constitute the largest single block of staff costs. Now the company can footle with reducing the number of secretarial and admin staff, but that won't make major inroads on the staff costs. Nope, it's a penalty you pay for being the largest group, you become a very fat target. Look on the bright side. Nobody has talked about outsourcing your department yet. Talk to the call centres or some of the admin folk. Look at what has been shifted to lower cost base areas like India -we have a fair amount of work being done there. New Fleet may sound a grim prospect, but it's a damn sight better than what some areas face. There won't be a better deal than that on offer, because the longer this goes on, the less money there is in the piggy bank. Oh sure BA has pots of cash in loan guarantees. BA has to repay that money somehow. We haven't made a profit and the rainy day fund is drying up. One thing I promise. I will back this company to the hilt in the face of any industrial ation by cabin crew. I will do your job, if by doing so I make sure mine and the 30,000 other staff don't lose theirs. New Fleet expanding fast ? Of course. The suggestion that Unite might call a further walkout means that BA has to do somethng to protect the route network. There is a limit to how many head office and ground staff who can be puled off their day job to keep this place running. I'll wager that a further strike will only hasten the increase in New Fleet size. Instead of taking several years to reach 40% I think it will accelerate to several months. and will be targetting more than 40%. I could be wrong - want to take that gamble ?
The brutal truth is that BA needs to reduce its costs if it is to be profitable. The two largest cost areas are fuel, which we have a modicum of control over by hedging and staff. Cabin crew represent close to 25% of staff. It will come as no surprise that they probably constitute the largest single block of staff costs. Now the company can footle with reducing the number of secretarial and admin staff, but that won't make major inroads on the staff costs. Nope, it's a penalty you pay for being the largest group, you become a very fat target. Look on the bright side. Nobody has talked about outsourcing your department yet. Talk to the call centres or some of the admin folk. Look at what has been shifted to lower cost base areas like India -we have a fair amount of work being done there. New Fleet may sound a grim prospect, but it's a damn sight better than what some areas face. There won't be a better deal than that on offer, because the longer this goes on, the less money there is in the piggy bank. Oh sure BA has pots of cash in loan guarantees. BA has to repay that money somehow. We haven't made a profit and the rainy day fund is drying up. One thing I promise. I will back this company to the hilt in the face of any industrial ation by cabin crew. I will do your job, if by doing so I make sure mine and the 30,000 other staff don't lose theirs. New Fleet expanding fast ? Of course. The suggestion that Unite might call a further walkout means that BA has to do somethng to protect the route network. There is a limit to how many head office and ground staff who can be puled off their day job to keep this place running. I'll wager that a further strike will only hasten the increase in New Fleet size. Instead of taking several years to reach 40% I think it will accelerate to several months. and will be targetting more than 40%. I could be wrong - want to take that gamble ?