British Airways vs. BASSA (current Airline Staff Only)
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Ltn and beyond,
The temp crew working at BA have an obligation to complete the temp contract that they signed. That is why they are unable to move over to permanent MF contracts.
Floaty,
A typical cynics reponse. What would you have BA do? Continue to allow the BASSAmentalists to ruin this airline?
If you were starting a new airline would you not try and employ some high calibre pilots to start with or would you get a few old ropey has-beens and pray that they don't screw up?
The temp crew working at BA have an obligation to complete the temp contract that they signed. That is why they are unable to move over to permanent MF contracts.
Floaty,
A typical cynics reponse. What would you have BA do? Continue to allow the BASSAmentalists to ruin this airline?
If you were starting a new airline would you not try and employ some high calibre pilots to start with or would you get a few old ropey has-beens and pray that they don't screw up?
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It is very disappointing to read some of the comments here about Mixed Fleet vs Old Fleet.
First off, we have no evidence whatsoever about the recruitment process involved so to state that the recruitment is much more rigorous than previously is completely unsubstantiated. I thought this was a forum where we based things on facts?
The fact is we simply don't know as even normal Cabin Crew Selectors are not involved.
Secondly, they are recruiting currently only for the CSM position - Senior Crew Members. The process for this has always been rigorous - many excellent cabin crew have been turned down in the past for whatever reasons, and that is obviously continuing to happen.
I have found onboard, that the pilots have been an absolute rock of support to us non-strikers, both during the strike and after. It is extremely disheartening therefore to see a small minority on here claiming that Mixed Fleet are somehow going to be "superior" to existing crew. We all recognise that the small minority of BASSA diehards are a thorn in our side, but please don't tar us all with the same brush.
Those of us who crossed the picket line have had an extremely tough time. Crossing the picket line itself was stressful, but having to work now with some of our more militant members is even more stressful. Crew members accosting us - I was approached at the car park bus stop by a "friend" and asked infront of a large crew why I hadn't been at Bedfont (because I'd rather poke my eyes out with chopsticks
). Some are wary or even afraid to go on staff travel, and many are upset because they remained in the Union to vote no, and now haven't been able to accept the company's offer.
We have had more than enough to endure. So leave it out about Mixed Fleet. They are no better or worse than the rest of us; they are simply operating to different agreements. End of.
Even BF said on his last webchat:
"I believe that our existing crews at LHR and LGW give an excellent service and I'm sure they will continue to do just that. I hope that Mixed Fleet will follow in their footsteps."
Can we draw a line under this now please?
First off, we have no evidence whatsoever about the recruitment process involved so to state that the recruitment is much more rigorous than previously is completely unsubstantiated. I thought this was a forum where we based things on facts?
The fact is we simply don't know as even normal Cabin Crew Selectors are not involved.Secondly, they are recruiting currently only for the CSM position - Senior Crew Members. The process for this has always been rigorous - many excellent cabin crew have been turned down in the past for whatever reasons, and that is obviously continuing to happen.
I have found onboard, that the pilots have been an absolute rock of support to us non-strikers, both during the strike and after. It is extremely disheartening therefore to see a small minority on here claiming that Mixed Fleet are somehow going to be "superior" to existing crew. We all recognise that the small minority of BASSA diehards are a thorn in our side, but please don't tar us all with the same brush.
Those of us who crossed the picket line have had an extremely tough time. Crossing the picket line itself was stressful, but having to work now with some of our more militant members is even more stressful. Crew members accosting us - I was approached at the car park bus stop by a "friend" and asked infront of a large crew why I hadn't been at Bedfont (because I'd rather poke my eyes out with chopsticks
). Some are wary or even afraid to go on staff travel, and many are upset because they remained in the Union to vote no, and now haven't been able to accept the company's offer.We have had more than enough to endure. So leave it out about Mixed Fleet. They are no better or worse than the rest of us; they are simply operating to different agreements. End of.
Even BF said on his last webchat:
"I believe that our existing crews at LHR and LGW give an excellent service and I'm sure they will continue to do just that. I hope that Mixed Fleet will follow in their footsteps."
Can we draw a line under this now please?
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HiFlyer14,
Who elected you as "the all knowing sage"? So things are only fact if you know them? You are doing the ppruner membership a great disservice in that case!
CSM, main crew and FTC are all undergoing selection right now - not just CSM. Your are correct, though, that previous BA cabin crew selectors are not being used.
MF recruitment is a different skill set. Superior? Your word not mine!
Who elected you as "the all knowing sage"? So things are only fact if you know them? You are doing the ppruner membership a great disservice in that case!
CSM, main crew and FTC are all undergoing selection right now - not just CSM. Your are correct, though, that previous BA cabin crew selectors are not being used.
MF recruitment is a different skill set. Superior? Your word not mine!
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Hot Wings
I said that statements about the recruitment process were unsubstantiated.
To date, you have simply stated that the process is more rigorous and have not substantiated it. So things are fact if YOU state them then?
Are you saying that the IFCE Manager's comment on our webchat was a lie then?
No-one elected me as the "all knowing sage". I made a post on a public forum. Isn't that what the forum is for??
The point I was trying to make, which may have been missed
, was that actually we have quite enough on our plates to deal with at the moment and it would be greatly appreciated if people didn't go rubbing salt in the wounds about things that, according to the IFCE Manager, are simply not true.
HiFlyer
I said that statements about the recruitment process were unsubstantiated.
To date, you have simply stated that the process is more rigorous and have not substantiated it. So things are fact if YOU state them then?
Are you saying that the IFCE Manager's comment on our webchat was a lie then?
No-one elected me as the "all knowing sage". I made a post on a public forum. Isn't that what the forum is for??
The point I was trying to make, which may have been missed
, was that actually we have quite enough on our plates to deal with at the moment and it would be greatly appreciated if people didn't go rubbing salt in the wounds about things that, according to the IFCE Manager, are simply not true.HiFlyer
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BASSA state: "Our union has not had a single meeting with British Airways since 2009".
I would suggest they take it up with Unite, who seem to have had a fair few meetings with BA and for some reason neglect to invite them.
I would suggest they take it up with Unite, who seem to have had a fair few meetings with BA and for some reason neglect to invite them.
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Hot Wings.
I read in previous posts that you are not a recruitment operative nor cabin crew, but a LHR S/H pilot. Without question your recent posts are therefore disingenious. I've flown with many excellent temps, who had to jump through some tough hoops to be employed by BA, who have now beeb turned down for mixed fleet. I find that very odd and disheartening.
However I support your comments about HighFlyer and therefore the closet PCCC.
Must add... this shows the very low regard Walsh has for his front line staff and how loyalty most certainly is not rewarded in the new BA. For us at the bottom of the pile living and working under such disinterest and diregard, the feeling is becoming increasingly reciprocal.
I read in previous posts that you are not a recruitment operative nor cabin crew, but a LHR S/H pilot. Without question your recent posts are therefore disingenious. I've flown with many excellent temps, who had to jump through some tough hoops to be employed by BA, who have now beeb turned down for mixed fleet. I find that very odd and disheartening.
However I support your comments about HighFlyer and therefore the closet PCCC.
Must add... this shows the very low regard Walsh has for his front line staff and how loyalty most certainly is not rewarded in the new BA. For us at the bottom of the pile living and working under such disinterest and diregard, the feeling is becoming increasingly reciprocal.
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How would you like me to substantiate them? Some video evidence or a sworn statements? You disregarded my comments because you aren't aware of process. Well take it as fact that some of us are VERY aware.
Please take the time to show me where I have said tha BF is a liar?
To put it simply, recruitment for MF is looking for crew who would be happy to lower blinds or pick up some litter, not crew who go running to BASSA or file a grievance every time that they're asked to hand out a hot towel.
Please take the time to show me where I have said tha BF is a liar?
To put it simply, recruitment for MF is looking for crew who would be happy to lower blinds or pick up some litter, not crew who go running to BASSA or file a grievance every time that they're asked to hand out a hot towel.
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Hot Wings you are so far off the mark with your comments.
The selection process for this new fleet will be exactly the same as it always has been for Ba crew. BA have always wanted to select the best.
Your comments make no sense are you trying to say that in the past BA have not gone out to select the best crew!!
People in hold pools are always reinterviewed before being taken on if they have been in a hold pool for more than 6 months.
What has happened in this situation is that these poor temps, who have been caught up in this situation as cannon fodder during the strike, have found themselves stuck in the middle. Because they are working as crew now they are having to complete the internal application and although I expect this is very similar to the external one, on the internal application you will have to use examples for your answers from your time working for BA. This is probably why many will have struggled to get an interview because it is hard for them to give really good examples for the application of when and how they have given exceptional service because they have been working for BA for such a short time.
Now I know many of you that have not been through the selection process and are not cabin crew will think. 'Huh that's easy, anyone can give good customer service' and you are right that these crew will have given good customer service I am very sure. It is however truly great examples that are required on the application, of when you went way above and beyond the call of duty, that the selectors will be looking for. So if you have only been working for a few months for BA it will be hard to come up with this kind of example.
On their original application to join BA I think they will have given a great answer and that is why they got an interview but for internal applications they would not have been able to use those examples as they would have been from a previous job. So I do agree and think it is very unfair for these crew.
To all you temps
I think it would be a good idea to email Bill Francis directly and explain your situation to him in a reasoned manner and ask him to look into your plight. Maybe as you have been working for BA for such a short time you could ask that they revisit your original application or just ask him to make an exception for you temps and appeal to his better side and put you straight into the interview process.
I have emailed Bill Francis myself many times and he has always taken the time to reply. Ask him if a few of you can have a face to face chat with him, you might even ask him if there was a possibility if you could be taken on at LGW. Make sure he understands how keen you are and how wonderful you think the new fleet will be !!!!!!!!!! etc. etc. Swallow the pill if you know what I mean.
Good luck to you all.
The selection process for this new fleet will be exactly the same as it always has been for Ba crew. BA have always wanted to select the best.
Your comments make no sense are you trying to say that in the past BA have not gone out to select the best crew!!
People in hold pools are always reinterviewed before being taken on if they have been in a hold pool for more than 6 months.
What has happened in this situation is that these poor temps, who have been caught up in this situation as cannon fodder during the strike, have found themselves stuck in the middle. Because they are working as crew now they are having to complete the internal application and although I expect this is very similar to the external one, on the internal application you will have to use examples for your answers from your time working for BA. This is probably why many will have struggled to get an interview because it is hard for them to give really good examples for the application of when and how they have given exceptional service because they have been working for BA for such a short time.
Now I know many of you that have not been through the selection process and are not cabin crew will think. 'Huh that's easy, anyone can give good customer service' and you are right that these crew will have given good customer service I am very sure. It is however truly great examples that are required on the application, of when you went way above and beyond the call of duty, that the selectors will be looking for. So if you have only been working for a few months for BA it will be hard to come up with this kind of example.
On their original application to join BA I think they will have given a great answer and that is why they got an interview but for internal applications they would not have been able to use those examples as they would have been from a previous job. So I do agree and think it is very unfair for these crew.
To all you temps
I think it would be a good idea to email Bill Francis directly and explain your situation to him in a reasoned manner and ask him to look into your plight. Maybe as you have been working for BA for such a short time you could ask that they revisit your original application or just ask him to make an exception for you temps and appeal to his better side and put you straight into the interview process.
I have emailed Bill Francis myself many times and he has always taken the time to reply. Ask him if a few of you can have a face to face chat with him, you might even ask him if there was a possibility if you could be taken on at LGW. Make sure he understands how keen you are and how wonderful you think the new fleet will be !!!!!!!!!! etc. etc. Swallow the pill if you know what I mean.
Good luck to you all.
Last edited by Betty girl; 6th Aug 2010 at 10:35.
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Hot Wings
You clearly tar us all with the same brush, which I find extremely disappointing if you are a pilot.
Do you have any idea what it is like to be setting up to give out a hot towel in WTP to have the entire crew including SCCMs telling you not to? Do you have any idea what it is like to battle with your own colleagues to try and deliver the product the way that BA want you to, and not the way that the BASSA mob dictate?
80% of us apparently came to work during the strike. 80% of us would happily give out hot towels. 80% of us would happily close a window blind. 80% of us go the extra mile every single day.
But hey, do not let THE FACTS get in the way of you ASSUMING that all crew are ungrateful, selfish, and lazy.
Hiflyer
You clearly tar us all with the same brush, which I find extremely disappointing if you are a pilot.
Do you have any idea what it is like to be setting up to give out a hot towel in WTP to have the entire crew including SCCMs telling you not to? Do you have any idea what it is like to battle with your own colleagues to try and deliver the product the way that BA want you to, and not the way that the BASSA mob dictate?
80% of us apparently came to work during the strike. 80% of us would happily give out hot towels. 80% of us would happily close a window blind. 80% of us go the extra mile every single day.
But hey, do not let THE FACTS get in the way of you ASSUMING that all crew are ungrateful, selfish, and lazy.
Hiflyer
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Do you have any idea what it is like to be setting up to give out a hot towel in WTP to have the entire crew including SCCMs telling you not to? Do you have any idea what it is like to battle with your own colleagues to try and deliver the product the way that BA want you to, and not the way that the BASSA mob dictate?
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80% of us apparently came to work during the strike. 80% of us would happily give out hot towels. 80% of us would happily close a window blind. 80% of us go the extra mile every single day.
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PC767,
Your detective skills have not failed you! But, I do not live in a cupboard in the CRC! I do appreciate your support about HF14 though!
Betty Girl,
I agree with your comment about cannon fodder.
When you talk about recruiting "the best" it is not as easy as that. Are you saying that cabin crew at other airlines are all rubbish? There is a vast difference between the best 10, 100, 1,000. The recruitment indicators and process is set to achieve the required goal. Did all of the redeployed crew go through the full selection procedure?!
The criteria for permanet crew needs to be tougher than for temps because it is easier to get rid of an under performing temp - you just don't renew their contract.
Your detective skills have not failed you! But, I do not live in a cupboard in the CRC! I do appreciate your support about HF14 though!
Betty Girl,
I agree with your comment about cannon fodder.
When you talk about recruiting "the best" it is not as easy as that. Are you saying that cabin crew at other airlines are all rubbish? There is a vast difference between the best 10, 100, 1,000. The recruitment indicators and process is set to achieve the required goal. Did all of the redeployed crew go through the full selection procedure?!
The criteria for permanet crew needs to be tougher than for temps because it is easier to get rid of an under performing temp - you just don't renew their contract.
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..we haven’t gone anywhere and we’re not going to anytime soon and the original problems have not been solved...So this dispute will carry on and on, into a different new phase and in the end, justice will prevail, and this planned glorious exit will elude him.
Given how swiftly Unite responded to an instruction about window blinds, there is no prospect of any other type of action intimated by Duncan.
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HiFlyer14,
Thank you for sharing with everyone how disappointed you are with me.
Were we once married?
I have only been trying to explain why some crew are not passing MF selection. You show the right attitude towards the job but you also state that only 80% of your colleagues have the right attitude in your view. So 20% don't (or is it the 4,500 BASSA die-hards). Why is it so difficult to accept, therefore, that some crew won't pass selection?
Thank you for sharing with everyone how disappointed you are with me.
Were we once married?
I have only been trying to explain why some crew are not passing MF selection. You show the right attitude towards the job but you also state that only 80% of your colleagues have the right attitude in your view. So 20% don't (or is it the 4,500 BASSA die-hards). Why is it so difficult to accept, therefore, that some crew won't pass selection?
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Hot Wings,
As you have not worked in BA cabin crew recruitment I do not feel you actually have the knowledge or experience to back up your comments.
I however have been a cabin crew selector.
I can assure you that the selection process for temp crew and perminent crew is exactly the same. Sometimes temp crew are made perminent straight after their temp contract and obviously their track record would be taken into consideration but sometimes they are let go of, it all depends on how many crew are required at that time.
These temp crew have just had the misfortune to join BA at a turbulent time and the processes that have been put in place have disadvantaged them.
BA got crew to apply for the 767 fleet back in the early 90's also when that fleet first started. Crew wanting to become part of that fleet which was later remammed MIdfleet also had to apply and have an interview. So none of this is new. For anyone who was not around then Midfleet was also mixed flying and also worked to slightly different agreements but was later dispanded in the late 90's. My point is that BA always interview for new projects because they do want to make sure they get crew that are commited to making it work.
All this has nothing to do with current temp staff not being up to the required standard. It is all happening because BA has put in an interview system for crew joining New Fleet. This system requires crew to give examples on their application of when they have given excelent customer service because you are right that they do want totally dedicated crew only to be working on this new fleet and that is because they want to create an ethos on this fleet from the start.
Many current crew will get into this new fleet and many will not and even more will not actually want to because of the low wage difference. Some will get CSM but many will not.
These temps will have found it hard to give the required examples on the application form, so many will not have got an interview and I do feel sorry for them. You making out you know why they did not get in and assuming it is because they are substandard along with all other crew on WW and EF is completely wrong.
Maybe you should read back the many posts on here that disagree with you from both pilots and cabin crew and also reread your own unpleasant posts and accept that your assumptions are incorrect. Maybe while you are there you might apologise for the way you have handled the feelings of the young temps who have been through sh*t for the last few months and only want to work for BA and have just had the bad luck to join during this completely useless industrial action. I doubt that though.
As you have not worked in BA cabin crew recruitment I do not feel you actually have the knowledge or experience to back up your comments.
I however have been a cabin crew selector.
I can assure you that the selection process for temp crew and perminent crew is exactly the same. Sometimes temp crew are made perminent straight after their temp contract and obviously their track record would be taken into consideration but sometimes they are let go of, it all depends on how many crew are required at that time.
These temp crew have just had the misfortune to join BA at a turbulent time and the processes that have been put in place have disadvantaged them.
BA got crew to apply for the 767 fleet back in the early 90's also when that fleet first started. Crew wanting to become part of that fleet which was later remammed MIdfleet also had to apply and have an interview. So none of this is new. For anyone who was not around then Midfleet was also mixed flying and also worked to slightly different agreements but was later dispanded in the late 90's. My point is that BA always interview for new projects because they do want to make sure they get crew that are commited to making it work.
All this has nothing to do with current temp staff not being up to the required standard. It is all happening because BA has put in an interview system for crew joining New Fleet. This system requires crew to give examples on their application of when they have given excelent customer service because you are right that they do want totally dedicated crew only to be working on this new fleet and that is because they want to create an ethos on this fleet from the start.
Many current crew will get into this new fleet and many will not and even more will not actually want to because of the low wage difference. Some will get CSM but many will not.
These temps will have found it hard to give the required examples on the application form, so many will not have got an interview and I do feel sorry for them. You making out you know why they did not get in and assuming it is because they are substandard along with all other crew on WW and EF is completely wrong.
Maybe you should read back the many posts on here that disagree with you from both pilots and cabin crew and also reread your own unpleasant posts and accept that your assumptions are incorrect. Maybe while you are there you might apologise for the way you have handled the feelings of the young temps who have been through sh*t for the last few months and only want to work for BA and have just had the bad luck to join during this completely useless industrial action. I doubt that though.
Last edited by Betty girl; 6th Aug 2010 at 11:38.
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This whole page of debate has been sparked by one temps post pointing out that were not being taken on full time. Maybe, and I will point out that I don't know this person from Adam, that they just were not good enough. I'm sure there are plenty of temp crew who were taken on full time.
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You are right Swalesboy. Some will have got interviews and some will not, some permanent crew will get interviews and some will not.
Also many will fail the interview and some will pass.
I think alot of people have just felt sorry for this temp because he/she was obviously keen and the way the hold pool crew got an interview without having to do an application made him/her feel hard done by.
Then to top it all off Hot Wings added in some unpleasant assumptions and comments about why the temps did not get an interview which has insenced alot of good, hardworking, non-striking crew and other pilots who have met good temp crew for that matter.
Also many will fail the interview and some will pass.
I think alot of people have just felt sorry for this temp because he/she was obviously keen and the way the hold pool crew got an interview without having to do an application made him/her feel hard done by.
Then to top it all off Hot Wings added in some unpleasant assumptions and comments about why the temps did not get an interview which has insenced alot of good, hardworking, non-striking crew and other pilots who have met good temp crew for that matter.