British Airways vs. BASSA (current Airline Staff Only)

[chromeo]

Duggie Fashion quoting evening standard and "he said/she said/someone allegedly said" smells of Troll to me

Save your lives some time and effort and

Do Not Feed The Troll



ps BA are far from unique in disciplining those in an email chain as distributing material is the same as writing and sending it.

[Meal Chucker]

BA crew to argue cheap Caribbean flights are a human right

just for passing on a Facebook message they were not even the author of.

This message they innocently passed along was a list of names of the VCC's on the first training course - personally I can't think of any 'innocent' reason why this list needed to be made public.

From the Daily Telegraph - BA crew to argue cheap Caribbean flights are a human right

BA crew to argue cheap Caribbean flights are a human right - Telegraph

[LD12986]

On the subject of liability, I wonder whether there is a case for current/former members of BASSA to make a claim against the union for gross negligence, for the following:

- Repeatedly failing to attend meetings with the company and properly participate in those meetings it did attend (see High Court judgment and BASSA's dismissive reference to "a presentation by a junior financial clerk from Waterside" which it refused to sit through)

- Not putting the company's original and reasonable offer to its members

- Misrepresenting the company's position to its members

- Making false representations to the membership (see Duncan Holley's "100% true" claim that the pilots were blocking the return of staff travel)

- Allowing its own internet forum to be used to encourage CC to threaten and intimidate non-strikers

- Failing to allow the company's offer before the first strikes to be put to a ballot of the membership even though Willie Walsh allowed an extension to the deadline to call a strike to allow the ballot to happen

- Making false statements regarding staff travel ("it will be back in 5 minutes!")

- Making false statements regarding the impact of the strikes

If anyone should be stepping aside to secure agreement its the BASSA reps, not least those who have been sacked and have no interest in the long term health of the company.

[ChicoG]

The people who were involved in the very unfortunate hotel room incident cannot be dismissed for their actions as they were not premeditated and thus it was an accident, however misguided. In such instances they could potentially be liable for criminal/civil prosecution within the state the incident took place in.

More to the point it is unlikely that they managed to leave Thailand without a financial settlement being made, to the hotel, the poor man's family, and, for want of a better word, "officials". They aren't the first BA have had to bail out of a bit of a sticky mess in Bangkok.

*cough*

[Wirbelsturm]

I was only quoting from a newspaper article.

Secondly these crew have allegedly not been dimissed and a pilot someone has said here was "allowed" to resign, yet four cabin crew have been dismissed just for passing on a Facebook message they were not even the author of.

Quoting DF? Or adding you're own brand of spin onto an article that, possibly, only contained fact, not your interpretation? Who knows, anyway thanks to the mods for removing it.

Any employee is entitled to resign at any point. You don't need permission nor are you 'allowed'. If you are paid monthly then you need to give one months notice.

The personal opinion of a bunch of pilots towards customers, however stupid those pilots may have been, is a long way away from the dissemination of personal information of a corporate sensitive nature.

The circumstances of the receipt and possible forwarding of that information is for the disciplinary board to decide and then act upon. Not for the baying hounds of BASSA to decide neither for Willie Walsh.

[SlideBustle]

I just hope all this can end soon because it is causing so much uncertainty to us all!

I think really, BASSA should now focus on just discussing maybe a matrix of how the routes will transfer/or what is classed as ''fair'' and what routes are High, Medium and Low and end this...

After such a low turnout for the vote, does anyone REALLY think a strike will have an impact or even - is a good idea?? I mean was it a good idea in the first place? That is debateable but a future one??? Not now because;

-Less than 50% of crew in the Union were bothered enough to either Vote YES or NO (OK so some didn't receieve the ballot)
-Lots of crew have left the Union or weren't in the Union to start with - they can't legally strike FURTHERMORE some may have signed up to the contract! I'm not sure how many as that hasn't been released but I'm willing to guess a majority!!!
-What if a strike makes this proposal worse? Infact BASSA will score an own goal IMO as if this happens - more people will leave the Union!
-BA has a LOT of VCC's - now they have also recruited many from the US. Now I will not say whether I agree or not with this here, but whether I do or don't they have recruited them so we have to work with that!

I had my doubts about this proposal don't get me wrong. Still I think many areas should be improved, however, on reflection and giving it more thought (now I have seen it from BA aswell - I only had the UNITE document previously as I was away!) - I would rather work to this proposal than have no pay increases as they remove them, or remove more allowances, decrease or remove the top-up. I doubted the assurances we have, but now I realise they are reasonable - and hey we could make the proposal less vague in the future. I think BASSA should do that now, just accept it but on the condition that anything ''vague'' is clarified.

[midman]

Originally Posted by Duggie Fashion

I unlike you go along with the wishes of the majority.

It is called democracy.

Duncan Fashion,
So if on 1st August, after the deadline for the offer, BA reveal that more people have signed for the latest offer than voted against it in the ballot, will you accede to the democratic wish and accept the offer?

[77]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duggie Fashion
I unlike you go along with the wishes of the majority.

It is called democracy.

Duncan Fashion,
So if on 1st August, after the deadline for the offer, BA reveal that more people have signed for the latest offer than voted against it in the ballot, will you accede to the democratic wish and accept the offer?

So therefore as the majority of BA staff think you are wrong will you now democratically accept the offer???

[LD12986]

I think really, BASSA should now focus on just discussing maybe a matrix of how the routes will transfer/or what is classed as ''fair'' and what routes are High, Medium and Low and end this

Not that you will get any public admission from BASSA, but they have to accept the strikes have failed.

They didn't ground BA. They didn't weaken BA's negotiating position. They haven't made BA put forward any better offers and BASSA hasn't gained any supporters anywhere outside the LHR CC bubble.

If the BASSA reps aren't prepared to stop being blinded by their pathological obssession with Willie Walsh and their own personal grievances, they should do the decent thing and step aside and let others take this forward.

Negotiating Mixed Fleet requires the commercial and creative skills that BASSA has proved to be so embarrasingly bereft of.

To give the CAI example referred to earlier in the thread. There may be routes that could move to New Fleet to give the company a significant advantage without much of a loss to Heritage Crew. I don't know how much CAI pays in the allowances but it may be a route where crew wouldn't lose much if it went to New Fleet, but the company would gain a lot if it did and was done out and back in a day. Ditto for Moscow if it meant BA could operate the route with a 4 class 777 (if it actually wants to).

Similarly there may be routes where Heritage Crew really need to keep the routes, but maybe able to give something else in return that won't mean much to crew but is a big gain to the company - precisely the sort of negotiating skills that could have avoided this whole debacle in the first place!

[Spanner in the works]

Isn't it about time Duggie was ignored on this forum.
Never debates issues, never answers direct questions.

Just comes on from time to time - stirs the pot with soundbites such as "WW out is the answer" and never, ever justifies them with coherent argument.

Not wishing censorship - a pro-bassa viewpoint is welcome in my opinion, if nothing more than to be able to understand the other view.
Healthy debate is exactly that - stating an opinion using facts and arguing a contrary view point with similar facts and opinion.

But DF does not want any of this. He/she is either not interested in the other view just getting soundbites over or not intelligent enough to debate the finer points. Sorry to be somewhat personal - but it's frustrating and extremely annoying. Especially when the stakes are so high.

[Viewfrom5Bells]

Interesting article in the Guardian

Whinging article by stewardess shot down in flames by the commenters

Without its staff, BA is nothing extraordinary | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

[Pornpants1]

viewfrom5bells wrote

Whinging article by stewardess shot down in flames by the commenters

It would have taken Duncan Holley a whole day to construct that, how dare you make disparaging remarks! There is no hiding the style, straight from the fictional works of "I'm a 42 year old stewardess and missed the birth of my child" to "I came to work during the strike" email

DF

I see that a lot of posts have been Ppruned to ensure an anti BASSA bias

Perhaps if you entered into the spirit of debate and moved the arguments along rather than just come out with BASSA esq one liners and irrelevant hyperlinks you might not have been Ppruned.

I'll start....... again!

DF when will BASSA/UNITE be issuing a strike ballot?

[Caribbean Boy]

CW,

Unite and BASSA have achieved a great deal, including:

• BA now knowing that it can produce and implement a robust contingency plan
• A spirit of togetherness which I have have never seen in BA
• Several hundred VCC - even excluding pilots
• A reduction in BASSA membership and power
• Better onload priority for non-strikers
• The probable earlier launch of Mixed Fleet

[Colonel White]

Colonel, I think you're mistaken
Quote:

What is unlawful?
As well as the general prohibition against compiling, selling, supplying and
using a blacklist, the Regulations also make it unlawful for an employer
• to refuse a person employment for a reason related to a prohibited list;

•

to dismiss an employee for a reason related to a prohibited list; and

•

to subject a worker to any other detriment for a reason related to a prohibited list.

The third bullet point seems to cover anything the employer might do to someone on a blacklist.

[snip]

Sorry, I'll admit that I hadn't delved into the depths of the SI on this before commenting. I have now unearthed the relevant document and note that the subject of detriment has a time limit on it. I quote

Time limit for proceedings under regulation 9

10.—(1) Subject to paragraph (2), an employment tribunal shall not consider a complaint under regulation 9 unless it is presented before the end of the period of three months beginning with the date of the act or failure to which the complaint relates or, where that act or failure is part of a series of similar acts or failures (or both) the last of them.
(2) An employment tribunal may consider a complaint under regulation 9 that is otherwise out of time if, in all the circumstances of the case, it considers that it is just and equitable to do so.

By my reckoning that means that the last batch of crew to go on strike have four weeks to get a case before a tribunal and still be in time. Those who walked out earlier in the year are probably out of luck.

With regard to prohibited lists, there are a shed load of exemptions, including connection with legal proceeding, the fact that the information has not been published, public interest, etc.

It would also be difficult to say that BA constructed a prohibited list as there are many cabin crew who are union members who may not feature on it as they worked normally.

The lawyers must be rubbing their hands with glee.

[DeThirdDefect]

The lawyers must be rubbing their hands with glee.

Not if they're the types who work on a "no win, no fee" basis.

[Chigley]

Wow.....I go away on a 3 day trip and there's pages of new posts to catch up on!

After the initial back slapping and congratulations from Ava Hannah, Duggie Fashion and BACrewmember that 6200 have claimed strike pay I think possibly the reality has started to kick in.....hence the silence maybe?

How very sad then that DH claims 74% of the current BASSA membership have supported his pointless strike which clearly has not had the desired effect. BA is not desperatley trying to negotiate, in fact quite the opposite. The only losers are the members themselves who have lost hundreds in earnings and staff travel. No doubt of those members hundreds more will return to work if further IA takes place as the first wavers did in May.

When are these people gonna wake up, if 74% of BASSA members have been on strike and 80% of our LH flights and 60% of our SH flights have operated, then BASSA is having little or no impact.

Even if 100% of their membership back a further strike the additional VCC's which must now be thousands, then another round of strikes will be a complete waste of time?

Lets face it, BASSA no longer has any power or influence, they are actually dead!!!

[Megaton]

When are these people gonna wake up, if 74% of BASSA members have been on strike and 80% of our LH flights and 60% of our SH flights have operated, then BASSA is having little or no impact.

If we can operate that level of service with 74% on strike then I think BASSA have talked their members out of a job. Oh well.

[LD12986]

So many questions. So few answers.

So has Unite actually instigated litigation against BA over the removal of staff travel?

Presumably the court papers would include the total number of crew who have lost staff travel, so the claims over the number of strikers can be put to bed once and for all?

[LD12986]

So many words, so little said...

UPDATE from Duncan Jul 28th, 2010 by admin

Hi Everybody

I have been following most of the threads on the forum etc, especially the call for an emergency branch meeting. Although it has been quiet this last week since the consultative ballot rejected the latest BA offer, that doesn’t mean to say, the reps have not been watching things closely and pondering our next moves and the best tactics.

This week Lizanne has been on leave and several others are "unavailable" for various reasons I don’t want to make public, but the Branch Committee is convening next Monday and we will then decide whether to call a branch meeting, depending on several things, one of which is "talks" scheduled to take place between Woodley and Walsh next week.

We are very aware of the need - following the ballot - to get together and re-focus everone’s minds etc but also the fact that branch meetings need to be called for a specific purpose. Timing is of the utmost importance, so please bear with us on this as there may well be a reason for "selecting" a date for us all to get together. At the moment - if there is to be a meeting - we are looking at the 10/11/12 of August but please only pencil that in for now.

While everyone wants this dispute settled quickly you must remember the person who gains most by a quick resolution is Walsh; he would love nothing better to ride off into his Spanish sunset on his trusty white donkey, bounuses intact and able to boast that he had seen off BASSA. We always said this was not a sprint but a marathon and if it takes another 12 days of Xmas - Justice Cox permitting - so be it.

Hopefully, things will be a little clearer next week, I am sorry this is only a holding message, I would like to be more frank but unfortunately I don’t want to reveal too much of our plans to the ears in Waterside. Please don’t feel just because you don’t hear too much from us that we are doing nothing. There is not a minute of the day when we are not thinking about you and the strife and hardship you are all currently facing without your staff travel etc. Like I said last week BASSA may not be as visible as we once were - we have not gone away - but we have to live a little bit underground. We hope you understand. You are far from being alone - just look how many went on strike - the vast majority of you are still standing strong.

All the best. Rgds Duncan

[Hotel Mode]

At the moment - if there is to be a meeting - we are looking at the 10/11/12 of August but please only pencil that in for now.

Anyone know what it costs to book Sandown and Kempton for the day?