British Airways vs. BASSA (current Airline Staff Only)

[Juan Tugoh]

The actions of BASSA here have not only allowed BA to bring about NF - which could have been avoided and at one stage of the whole sorry saga of this dispute was not part of the equation,

As I understand the law, strike action cannot be taken against ideas or proposals just actual changes.

I think you misunderstand the sequence of events. Before there was ever a ballot, one of the early positions that BA took was that after listening to the concerns of the CC, they were prepared to remove the threat of NF from the table. Savings would have to be made in other ways. So this was an option that BASSA could have negotiated on, instead they chose to refuse to negotiate on anything, then they came up with the ridiculous proposal which claimed to save £150M but in reality only saved £54M. That offer was also to be repaid after 2 years. Even a primary school pupil would have been able to see that was not going to work. So the inability to strike over something that has not happened is a red herring.

[Abbey Road]

Syndicate9,

Sorry, I'm new to this forum but I don't see how a few crosses on someone's bag intimidates anyone.

It isn't about the symbols (XXXX) themselves, it is about the intent of the group behind them. Some vicious individuals displaying unsavoury behaviour ..... which is the reason behind some of the disciplinaries and sackings.

The BASSA hardcore have displayed a nasty streak, within their own community, and it makes other cabin crew uncomfortable being around them. The hardcore know this, hence the XXXX symbol of defiance. Think of it like being in proximity to a neo-nazi group of thugs, waving their banners and swastikas - not an experience many would chose. The symbol is intended to intimidate. Sure, there are those who can brush it off, but it can be an uncomfortable experience for many others.

But, as many here have pointed out, BASSA thuggery is being weeded out, slowly and surely. BASSA has become, by it's own actions, a sideshow in the bigger circus of industrial relations. They are an anomaly that needed sorting, and it has come to pass!

[JUAN TRIPP]

Abbey Road, I have to disagree here slightly.

It isn't about the symbols (XXXX) themselves, it is about the intent of the group behind them. Some vicious individuals displaying unsavoury behaviour ..... which is the reason behind some of the disciplinaries and sackings.

Personally I find all the 4xxxx t-shirts, key rings, bag tags, yellow pens, pink pens etc etc, quite funny. I have concluded that 'so called' mature individuals having to lower themselves to this level is quite pathethic Worse than kids. However I'm old enough to look after myself and I do see that to some of the younger ones especially girls, that this could be slightly intimidating. All the flag waving on open top buses etc, singing vile songs doesn't get you anywhere with the vast majority of people.

The next song could well be ' Nobody likes us but we don't care' Well quite frankly nor do I anymore.

[Syndicate9]

I may be new here but honestly how can you compare strikers (and some non-strikers I hear) putting four x's on their bags with swastikas and nazi paraphernalia?
You really need to think before you post such things.

As far as I can tell it's just a badge to say which side their on just like the Backing BA lanyards for others or would you like to compare these to something similar?

[Wirbelsturm]

I may be new here but honestly how can you compare strikers (and some non-strikers I hear) putting four x's on their bags with swastikas and nazi paraphernalia?

There was no comparison made, the example was used as that, an example that you would feel intimidated by such sights.

You really need to read the posts a little more carefully before climbing onto a high horse.

[Hot Wings]

Syndicate9,

You stated that you haven't got any XXXX tags on your bags and then you compare them to the "backing BA" lanyards. Is it correct to conclude that you went on strike?

Frankly, it's all very childish and if the best that BASSA can do is produce some cheap tat then BA have clearly won.

[Miss BA]

Does anyone know how many are left in Bassa. Heard a good few people have left.

[MrBunker]

Syndicate,

I think if you look a little deeper you'll find most of the comparisons to the Nazi era and other despotic regimes have been drawn by BASSA themselves not by those who are backing the airline..

MissBA

Would be interesting to know. I did posit on here a few weeks back that BASSA would pull the page with exact membership numbers on as they continued to drop. Before it was changed it was approx 9250 - now it says "around 10,000"

MrB

[The Blu Riband]

The point about Bassa tags , XXXX labels, etc, is that they DO intimidate many crew members.

To the extent that some crew feel the need to display them even though they didn't even strike!!

I will not allow them to be displayed by anyone on my crew.

I understand some non strikers are too scared to use staff travel; preferring to buy hotline tickets instead.

I'm actually fed up with csd's slagging off Bassa and strikers to us privately, but then not saying anything when other crew make derogatory comments about "scabs" and BA .

Isn't it time some people started standing up for themselves.
You can't help those who won't help themselves.

[Syndicate9]

Hot Wings

Syndicate9,

You stated that you haven't got any XXXX tags on your bags and then you compare them to the "backing BA" lanyards. Is it correct to conclude that you went on strike?

Actually I'm not even cabin crew. Does that answer your question?

My point is simply that both sides in this bitter dispute have their symbols and neither like the other. As for forbidding your crew to have them on their luggage as one person wrote seems a bit silly unless it includes the paraphernalia from both sides equally. This ridiculous notion that you have to be on one side or the other is how this whole thing got out of hand in the first place.

[Abbey Road]

Syndicate9,

I may be new here but honestly how can you compare strikers (and some non-strikers I hear) putting four x's on their bags with swastikas and nazi paraphernalia?
You really need to think before you post such things.

I just knew someone was going to jump in and make that comparison. Which is partially the reason I used the analogy. You're new here? It shows! As Wirbelsturm and MrBunker have already pointed out your error I'll leave it at that. Whatever you do, don't go the 'I've got the moral high ground' way, like dave3 tries constantly (and fails miserably every time) - it won't endear you to anyone actually discussing this thread in a meaningful way.

[The Blu Riband]

This ridiculous notion that you have to be on one side or the other is how this whole thing got out of hand in the first place.

What a strange thing to say.

This is an industrial negotiation which has got got out of hand.

BA has tried to act with integrity but has been faced with a group of people who have threatened the future of the company , the safety of individuals, and any of their own number who dare to challenge the policies or statements of a totally intransigent set of reps and ringleaders.

If you're not crew then you cannot imagine how difficult the atmosphere on board has become.

It is not about "sides", it is about freedom and responsibility.

Bassa has become a threat to BA and many (all) of its employees.

[Syndicate9]

You make comparisons between the four x tags on crew bags and then tell me not to take the moral highground? Odd comment. No-one has yet answered my following point about how this is intimidatory and just saying it is doesn't make it true.
As for Blu Riband's

It is not about "sides", it is about freedom and responsibility.

Well I think Unite could probably make the same pointless and meaningless platitude in their own defence. I'll leave that to them.
As for my view about how this dispute has got out of hand; the puerile rantings of those of you who seem to think the cabin crew unions represent the embodiment of all that is evil on Earth reinforces that view. I do have cabin crew friends on both sides of this divide and they are all good people. Their views are as valid as yours no matter who you agree with but this constant state of war that many of you seem to want to indulge in will only make things worse.
BA have made mistakes and so have the cabin crew union. We need to learn to live with that and move on to some kind of peaceful settlement that is in everyone's interest.
Is that such a bad idea?

[Bridchen]

No, this didn't get out of hand because of luggage tags. What on earth is the point of you posting on a forum that you can see why somethng's gone wrong, when you clearly don't know what's going on.

I didn't go on strike, but I wouldn't wear a backing BA lanyard either. It's obvious from me coming into work that that's what I'm doing. Nor would I hide behind a XXXX baggage tag or pen in case some jerk decides to start whispering behind my back, or even worse, not want to meet up with me down route. Most of the time, that is the worst that is going to happen. However there have been more serious cases involving a minority of individuals, of extreme bullying and harassment. No body has any business shouting or whispering in a work environment. And the XXXX baggage tags, etc, are used almost exclusively by people who indulge in this kind of behaviour. They are coming to work to do a job. They are not paid to behave in a militant or politically motivated way, or create that kind of atmosphere for anybody else to have to endure.

Part of our contract is to wear a BA uniform. And the way in which we wear it is laid down in Uniform Standards. Uniform Standards does not mention that we are allowed to adorn ourselves or our luggage with anything that advertises a political body, or any other organisation. If BA allow us to wear a lanyard that advertises BA in any way that does not incite racial hatred, then we are obliged to do so. And I might add, we are NOT OBLIGED TO WEAR A PRO BA LANYARD. IT IS AN INDIVIDUAL CHOICE. And it's their prorogative. BASSA do not provide our uniform or pay our wages. They have nothing to do with BA except that they were supposed to negotiate with them on our behalf.

A lanyard pronouncing, 'I'm backing BA' means just that. It doesn't mean 'I'm going to whisper about you in the galley.' 'I'm not going to socialise with you.' 'Nasty things happen to people who went on strike.' Wear the XXXX badge on all your days off down the Bath Road, if you please. I don't care. But leave the union advertising off the aircraft or on the notice board. If BA don't want to advertise something so anti-BA on their own property, aircraft and uniforms, then that's their choice. I don't think you'll find a Conservative Party poster in the windows of the UNITE headquarters because one of Tony Woodley's staff, however improbably, votes Conservative.

[Syndicate9]

So does BA pay for your luggage too? They don't pay for mine. If they do then the union activists are out of order. If an individual pays for something then they have the right to put whatever they like on it don't they?
I'm sure if BA wanted then they could produce 'I'm backing BA' luggage tags too. Would that be tantamount to inciting violence? In my outsiders view it seems that you are all getting wound up about labels and assuming the reasons for their use. A soccer tag on a bag wouldn't mean that the individual whose bag it was wouldn't socialize or be friendly to someone from another team would it?
Bridchen

What on earth is the point of you posting on a forum that you can see why somethng's gone wrong, when you clearly don't know what's going on.

Is that english?

And the XXXX baggage tags, etc, are used almost exclusively by people who indulge in this kind of behaviour.

Can you provide evidence to back up that extremely provocative assertion because in my experience that is simply untrue? I have enjoyed many evenings out with people whose bags had xxxx tags and those who didn't and many more with both. Nobody seemed threatened by a luggage tag and the tags didn't say boo to a goose.

[biteme]

I would think that displaying XXXX tags, yellow pens and any other symbol that shows an individual as some one who took IA is just that.
If people feel intimidated or excluded then that is down to them. Are we saying that if you decided to fall on the side of your union and take industrial action then that should be kept secret?
If I believed that BA was being honest and I indeed backed the anti union behaviour then I would have stood tall and crossed the picket line.
No XXXX tags would have worried me, what you have in this case is people who wanted to back the UNION but for financial reasons (loosing pay for more than the strike days) and fear of loosing staff travel went in to work.
These are the majority of people who feel bad, they went against their beliefs and that plays on their conscience.
I know many of the argumentative characters on this forum will slate this viewpoint, please feel free.
But I have the luxury of knowing the people I work with, I am very open and have no malice to people making choices in life. I have had many discussions on this subject. You will find that the majority of crew, what ever they chose to do understand the gravity of what is being done to our community.
You guys bash away all you like because most of your opinions are without understanding of what the cabin crew community have endured over the last few years.
Can I also ask, would BALPA members refrain from wearing lanyards during a dispute with BA for fear of intimidating fellow flight crew?

[The Blu Riband]

If an individual pays for something then they have the right to put whatever they like on it don't they?

No they don't actually.

BA staff are required to conform to BA's uniform standards, which specifies the colour of luggage and the labels to attach; and also any badges and lanyards to be worn.

Unite's guidelines on bullying and harrassment - which BA adhere to - also clearly explain the exact nature of the improper use of signs , labels and badges which a XXXX simply does not comply with.

We need to learn to live with that and move on to some kind of peaceful settlement that is in everyone's interest

So lets not wear XXXX badges and lanyards, or graffitti the interior of aircraft, or damage cars in the crew car park, or sing abusive songs about our BA colleagues, or write threatening texts or emails to those who dare to take a different view or stance.

I am trying not to take sides, or judge crew based on whether they are strikers or not, and one way to do that is to ensure that the work environment is non-political. Or at least free of any potentially intimidating propaganda.

More importantly, when onboard the aircraft, we need to be working together . Not creating divisions and animosity.

[Hot Wings]

biteme,

Would you care to expand further as to what "the cabin crew community have endured over the last few years"?

In my opinion you have had the best pay in the industry, worked some of the lowest hours (especially EF) and stayed in the best hotels. Maybe LGW CC have had to "endure" but then they were sacrificed by BASSA so probably don't factor in your mind!

[Hand Solo]

No XXXX tags would have worried me, what you have in this case is people who wanted to back the UNION but for financial reasons (loosing pay for more than the strike days) and fear of loosing staff travel went in to work.
These are the majority of people who feel bad, they went against their beliefs and that plays on their conscience.

No, that's just what you want to think are the majority, because you find it more comfortable to believe that others have been frightened into going to work. The reality is they made their decision based on the facts and don't agree with striking, something the blinkered strikers simply cannot comprehend. And crossing the picket lines is a far braver thing to do than standing at Bedfont eating samosas. BA haven't threatened to kill non-strikers, abused them or damaged their property. That sort of behaviour comes from the XXXX mob. If you're happy to defend your opinions one in one then good, but do it without a label. The XXXX tags are there for the weak minded to easily find one another and firm their nasty, intimidatory clique. Fortunately I see relatively few tags.

[MrBunker]

Once more......

Originally Posted by biteme

No XXXX tags would have worried me, what you have in this case is people who wanted to back the UNION but for financial reasons (loosing pay for more than the strike days) and fear of loosing staff travel went in to work.
These are the majority of people who feel bad, they went against their beliefs and that plays on their conscience.
I know many of the argumentative characters on this forum will slate this viewpoint, please feel free.

Consider it done.

The fact that those who went to work tell you, on here and elsewhere, to your real and virtual face that the reasons they went to work were not as described above is constantly discarded by those like you who simply refuse to accept that some people just didn't agree with BASSA on this one and chose their path accordingly. It's now almost a tenet of BASSA/CrewForum faith that a "sausage" (or some other playground derogation of an individual that you all seem so beloved of) is either a)constantly regretting their decision, b) hanging their head in shame, c) bullied into being a volunteer or d) sticking their head in the sand. From a psychological viewpoint I can see why it suits you to think that - it allows you to "keep the faith" and assert that "united we stand". However it doesn't necessarily make it true. It's been suggested on here and elsewhere that a number of people who went to work are saying what you want to hear because, and deny it if you wish, some of the core supporters of BASSA are aggressive and threatening. I've read plenty of it on CF and BASSA forum so I know what words are being used about people who worked and it's petty and ugly rhetoric.

Equally I know of people who went on strike and came to work in wave two. They left the union too. Was that to preserve Staff Travel or maybe, just maybe, can you allow for the possibility that some people came to a different conclusion to the one you've clearly drawn? Would allowing yourself to even briefly ruminate on that possibility cause your paradigm to crumble?

It seems to me, and I'm aware I'm repeating myself ad nauseum on this point, that, in general, the non-strikers seem perfectly able to respect and understand the viewpoint of the strikers, even if they, ultimately, don't concur with it. The lack of willingness or ability for the strikers to do the same in return is, to me, one of the true marks of the lack of solid, mature character being displayed by this BASSA orchestrated charivari. Hitler, Tiananmen, Argentina, North Korea, Silly Willy and Billy, BFC bouncy castles and samosas, Yellow Pens, Manchester Airtours? Really, does any of that make you look like a cadre of serious-minded individuals who are strongly but sorrowfully fighting for the future of trades-unionism?

MrB