British Airways vs. BASSA (current Airline Staff Only)
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I agree with Bidchen and HiFlyer.
It is good to have debate. I too am a non striker and it is almost impossible to chat with a striker at work, so it is good to hear what you all have to say on the matter.
A few people on hear do resort to sarcasm on both sides of the debate but the vast majority of us want to hear reasoned debate and are interested in why people support the union despite the mess they have got us in to.
So don't be put off from giving us your full reasons biteme, most of us are interested to hear them.
It is good to have debate. I too am a non striker and it is almost impossible to chat with a striker at work, so it is good to hear what you all have to say on the matter.
A few people on hear do resort to sarcasm on both sides of the debate but the vast majority of us want to hear reasoned debate and are interested in why people support the union despite the mess they have got us in to.
So don't be put off from giving us your full reasons biteme, most of us are interested to hear them.
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I agree that Unite may not have handled their side of negotiations well but if we had been treated in the same way at which point would our representatives have walked out of the negotiations.
Anyway, where's this ballot Duncan? Christmas is coming (again).
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I will make an attempt to answer your questions, the answers are only my feelings and not a representation of the BASSA membership as a whole.
1. Do the original 92/93% of voters still think it was a wise thing to support "no negotiation”?
First I don't agree that there was a “no negotiation” my understanding was that unite/bassa had made many attempts to negotiate, BA would turn up and sit in the room, that to me is as much a failure to negotiate as not turning up at all. 13 Dec 2009 unite/bassa stated, “in short meetings between us have become a charade” this drove them to withdraw from negotiations asking for BA to Work to and honour and respect existing agreements Meaningfully engage in resolution of issues of importance to our members. Commit to the objectives of the respective forums at which the trade unions sit. So yes I do, and still standby and support that decision, I believe that negotiation is just that, negotiating, not just turning up and demanding that we accept all of BA’s demands. That is not negotiating it is simply making demands.
2. Would those still in the BASSA union honestly accept that intimidation, in whatever form has, and continues to occur, both at LHR and down route?
Yes, I have witnessed intimidation on a very few occasions, mostly down route and on the aircraft. This however was not just from BASSA members as your question suggests (as you ask the union to accept it occurs) it has been from both sides of the fence. I have seen crew in a bar with XXXX drawn on their foreheads, I have seen flight crew keeping one of my crew in the flight deck for about an hour while he told her if she voted in favour of strike BA would sack her. This is only two examples of the behaviour that I would consider intimidating I have seen more but not a huge amount. I have had to intervene in most occasions. So, my answer is yes I will accept intimidation occurs, but not just from Strikers…
3. Would those same people feel safe/confident to stand up in front of fellow BASSA members and say: " I think we may have got this wrong, any chance of getting back around the table?
If I thought so, yes I would, but that is me. I have had conversations with the BASSA reps about my areas of concerned, I found them to be very open to my ideas. I do believe that they have learned a lot over the length of this dispute.
4. What was ever the point of refusing to sit in the same room as CC89 reps? (For over 20 years).
I am not aware of this issue, I do now that about an occasion when a CC89 rep had an argument with a bassa rep and this resulted in the meeting being postponed. I believe it was over the fact that the CC89rep was taking VR and it was thought this might cloud his judgement. Personally I would have expected a more adult reaction from my rep on this occasion. My answer, I don’t believe the question is factual as bassa and CC89 must have been in the same room for the argument to ensue.
5. When this is finally over, and you have come out far worse off than could have been the case, will you finally admit your union leaders, and one in particular has catastrophically let you down?
No, I believe they are doing the best they can, these people you are so ready to dismiss are cabin crew just like the people they are trying to defend. Are the perfect? No of course they are not. Do they make mistakes? Yes the do. Why do I give them my support? They are the only ones in all this mess who genuinely have my welfare at heart. I have had another look at the Operation Columbus document from back in 2008. Every little detail that was in it has become reality. Bassa were accused of scaremongering, BA initially denied the document was genuine. Then it was a working project that is always running in the background. We were not to be overly concerned by it. So who do I trust? I don’t think I have to answer that.
I hope this help understand my vewpoint.
1. Do the original 92/93% of voters still think it was a wise thing to support "no negotiation”?
First I don't agree that there was a “no negotiation” my understanding was that unite/bassa had made many attempts to negotiate, BA would turn up and sit in the room, that to me is as much a failure to negotiate as not turning up at all. 13 Dec 2009 unite/bassa stated, “in short meetings between us have become a charade” this drove them to withdraw from negotiations asking for BA to Work to and honour and respect existing agreements Meaningfully engage in resolution of issues of importance to our members. Commit to the objectives of the respective forums at which the trade unions sit. So yes I do, and still standby and support that decision, I believe that negotiation is just that, negotiating, not just turning up and demanding that we accept all of BA’s demands. That is not negotiating it is simply making demands.
2. Would those still in the BASSA union honestly accept that intimidation, in whatever form has, and continues to occur, both at LHR and down route?
Yes, I have witnessed intimidation on a very few occasions, mostly down route and on the aircraft. This however was not just from BASSA members as your question suggests (as you ask the union to accept it occurs) it has been from both sides of the fence. I have seen crew in a bar with XXXX drawn on their foreheads, I have seen flight crew keeping one of my crew in the flight deck for about an hour while he told her if she voted in favour of strike BA would sack her. This is only two examples of the behaviour that I would consider intimidating I have seen more but not a huge amount. I have had to intervene in most occasions. So, my answer is yes I will accept intimidation occurs, but not just from Strikers…
3. Would those same people feel safe/confident to stand up in front of fellow BASSA members and say: " I think we may have got this wrong, any chance of getting back around the table?
If I thought so, yes I would, but that is me. I have had conversations with the BASSA reps about my areas of concerned, I found them to be very open to my ideas. I do believe that they have learned a lot over the length of this dispute.
4. What was ever the point of refusing to sit in the same room as CC89 reps? (For over 20 years).
I am not aware of this issue, I do now that about an occasion when a CC89 rep had an argument with a bassa rep and this resulted in the meeting being postponed. I believe it was over the fact that the CC89rep was taking VR and it was thought this might cloud his judgement. Personally I would have expected a more adult reaction from my rep on this occasion. My answer, I don’t believe the question is factual as bassa and CC89 must have been in the same room for the argument to ensue.
5. When this is finally over, and you have come out far worse off than could have been the case, will you finally admit your union leaders, and one in particular has catastrophically let you down?
No, I believe they are doing the best they can, these people you are so ready to dismiss are cabin crew just like the people they are trying to defend. Are the perfect? No of course they are not. Do they make mistakes? Yes the do. Why do I give them my support? They are the only ones in all this mess who genuinely have my welfare at heart. I have had another look at the Operation Columbus document from back in 2008. Every little detail that was in it has become reality. Bassa were accused of scaremongering, BA initially denied the document was genuine. Then it was a working project that is always running in the background. We were not to be overly concerned by it. So who do I trust? I don’t think I have to answer that.
I hope this help understand my vewpoint.
Last edited by biteme; 27th Sep 2010 at 16:35.
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Thank you biteme,
That was a very good answer.
I did not personally agree that a strike was the right way of going about things and I also did not like some of the unions proposals and that is why I did not strike.
It is not as black and white as many people like to portray. Many who did not strike are not happy with what is going on too and many people just did not know whether to strike or not. Some striked and lost there staff travel and some did not but alot made their mind up the day they had to go in.
It is a horrid thing that we are all going through and I, like you, hope there is a resolution soon.
That was a very good answer.
I did not personally agree that a strike was the right way of going about things and I also did not like some of the unions proposals and that is why I did not strike.
It is not as black and white as many people like to portray. Many who did not strike are not happy with what is going on too and many people just did not know whether to strike or not. Some striked and lost there staff travel and some did not but alot made their mind up the day they had to go in.
It is a horrid thing that we are all going through and I, like you, hope there is a resolution soon.
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Biteme
You appear to have come into the game late! So to counter some of your answers, and all this stuff has been said before in this thread.
Thank you for your answer but do you not remember the show of hands at Sandown racecourse last summer? 1500 independently audited BASSA members gave a show of hands on the BASSA stance of "NO negotiations", I have tried to find the U-Tube video of the event but alas someone has removed it, I can't think why
The argument you refer, took place in the lobby of a hotel on the bath road, and spilled out into the car park resulting in a scuffle. Both reps then attempted to use BAs internal disciplinary policy to lodge complaints against each other.
below is a quote taken from a ruling that can be found here Malone & Ors v British Airways Plc [2010] EWHC 302 (QB) (19 February 2010) I suggest you read it then come back to us since you
1. Do the original 92/93% of voters still think it was a wise thing to support "no negotiation”?
4. What was ever the point of refusing to sit in the same room as CC89 reps? (For over 20 years).
below is a quote taken from a ruling that can be found here Malone & Ors v British Airways Plc [2010] EWHC 302 (QB) (19 February 2010) I suggest you read it then come back to us since you
I am not aware of this issue
viii) 21st-23rd July – An abortive session at ACAS.
ix) 21st, 30th September and 1st and 2nd October – Following an agreement reached between BA's CEO and the Joint General Secretaries of Unite, there was a further sustained resort to ACAS for conciliation. I heard evidence as to the course of events at ACAS and the following emerged. The BASSA and Amicus factions were separately represented and sat in separate rooms. Despite the efforts of ACAS they could not be persuaded to join forces for a meeting with BA. The latter raised the possibility of separate agreements with the respective factions but, understandably, that did not appeal. In the overall result there was no meeting between the Union and BA.
ix) 21st, 30th September and 1st and 2nd October – Following an agreement reached between BA's CEO and the Joint General Secretaries of Unite, there was a further sustained resort to ACAS for conciliation. I heard evidence as to the course of events at ACAS and the following emerged. The BASSA and Amicus factions were separately represented and sat in separate rooms. Despite the efforts of ACAS they could not be persuaded to join forces for a meeting with BA. The latter raised the possibility of separate agreements with the respective factions but, understandably, that did not appeal. In the overall result there was no meeting between the Union and BA.
vi) 9th – 30th June – Intermittent talks at Heathrow Renaissance Hotel. In the course of such;
a) 15th June BASSA had a heated argument with Amicus and refused to cooperate together
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Thanks pornpants1
Another response in an antagonistic tone.
The whole “who sat in a room gate” is in the past. I either support my union or I don’t, so reading the (I would imagine very interesting case notes) will not change much for me, so I will abstain.
I don’t need a u-tube video I was at the meeting and my hand was in the air. The vote was not for a “no negotiation” I suggest that it is you who checks the facts.
This is what I voted on:
1) The 1/2000 Branch fully authorises the Branch Committee to negotiate
On its behalf. Should negotiations not be successful, or should BA
impose, then without further referral or delay a ballot for industrial
action will commence.
2) A vote of no confidence in Willie Walsh.
3) Do we accept the principle of saving of £82m?
Not as simple as a “no negotiation” We had been trying to negotiate for months at this stage. As I mentioned going into a room and meeting is not negotiating.
It was the membership not the reps that wanted action. It is very easy to take snippets of information and make it fit what purpose you desire.
I was lucky to have been off and attend every meeting that bassa held. It seems that this forum drives itself on the facts as they see them, I doubt many were at all the meetings so are not party to the full picture.
Just have a look at Operation Columbus and tell me if BA have been truthful in all this.
Another response in an antagonistic tone.
The whole “who sat in a room gate” is in the past. I either support my union or I don’t, so reading the (I would imagine very interesting case notes) will not change much for me, so I will abstain.
I don’t need a u-tube video I was at the meeting and my hand was in the air. The vote was not for a “no negotiation” I suggest that it is you who checks the facts.
This is what I voted on:
1) The 1/2000 Branch fully authorises the Branch Committee to negotiate
On its behalf. Should negotiations not be successful, or should BA
impose, then without further referral or delay a ballot for industrial
action will commence.
2) A vote of no confidence in Willie Walsh.
3) Do we accept the principle of saving of £82m?
Not as simple as a “no negotiation” We had been trying to negotiate for months at this stage. As I mentioned going into a room and meeting is not negotiating.
It was the membership not the reps that wanted action. It is very easy to take snippets of information and make it fit what purpose you desire.
I was lucky to have been off and attend every meeting that bassa held. It seems that this forum drives itself on the facts as they see them, I doubt many were at all the meetings so are not party to the full picture.
Just have a look at Operation Columbus and tell me if BA have been truthful in all this.
Last edited by biteme; 27th Sep 2010 at 17:33.
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BigBrutha,
Lets say for a minute you are in my shoes, been on strike, lost your staff travel and don’t agree with the route that BA are taking your department.
What would you do?
Lets say for a minute you are in my shoes, been on strike, lost your staff travel and don’t agree with the route that BA are taking your department.
What would you do?
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biteme
Please don't get upset if people lay down the facts that you elect to ignore
you don't get away with it so easy........... you said
now you attempt to trivialise it now your facts have been found wanting, you said to reiterate
The
really say it all, collectively about both you and pro BASSA supporters.
Why don't you elect to read and digest the high courts judges findings? I dispare sometimes that during a debate you wish to be taken seriously yet won't read both factual, sworn under oath independent findings, I can only sumise that the High courts versions of the facts don't fit the BASSA ideal and thus you must bury your (collective, BASSA) heads in the sand.
Just last night on the bus I was told I was "stupid" by a stewardess draped in 4x labels because, "BASSA have not yet been to court so how the $**k can a judge rule that BA have been reasonable, If BASSA had of lost a court case I would know"
I rest my case,
The whole “who sat in a room gate” is in the past. I either support my union or I don’t so reading the (I would imagine very interesting case notes) will not change much for me, so I will abstain.
I am not aware of this issue, I do now that about an occasion when a CC89 rep had an argument with a bassa rep and this resulted in the meeting being postponed. I believe it was over the fact that the CC89rep was taking VR and it was thought this might cloud his judgement. Personally I would have expected a more adult reaction from my rep on this occasion. My answer, I don’t believe the question is factual as bassa and CC89 must have been in the same room for the argument to ensue.
I am not aware of this issue
so I will abstain
Why don't you elect to read and digest the high courts judges findings? I dispare sometimes that during a debate you wish to be taken seriously yet won't read both factual, sworn under oath independent findings, I can only sumise that the High courts versions of the facts don't fit the BASSA ideal and thus you must bury your (collective, BASSA) heads in the sand.
Just last night on the bus I was told I was "stupid" by a stewardess draped in 4x labels because, "BASSA have not yet been to court so how the $**k can a judge rule that BA have been reasonable, If BASSA had of lost a court case I would know"
I rest my case,
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biteme,
You always have the option of putting your hands in the air and admitting that you've made mistake. Or you can continue to ignore the facts and be sidelined by BA. Reality is hard but as a 47 year old CSD did you honestly expect your terms and conditions to remain unchallenged until you retired?
You always have the option of putting your hands in the air and admitting that you've made mistake. Or you can continue to ignore the facts and be sidelined by BA. Reality is hard but as a 47 year old CSD did you honestly expect your terms and conditions to remain unchallenged until you retired?
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That's why you find yourself desperate to engage in IA to regain ST and reinstate sacked/suspended colleagues, when the real issue of MF is happening under your union's noses and they can do absolutely nothing about it.
I am at a loss as to how they retain any level of support.
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Biteme, we´re not running a love-in here.
This is a moderated debating forum for dissenting adults.
So stop whining about the "tone" of people´s posts and stop whining about the moderating.
If you believe a post´s content to be against the forum rules, use the "report to moderator button"
on the left.
Don´t whine on this thread.
If you don´t like the moderating, use the ´contact us´ link provided at the bottom of every page and tell PPRuNe Admin what you find problematic.
Don´t whine on this thread.
As voiced by several posters already, you and your views are very very welcome here.
But this is NOT mutual admiration society and if you want to participate, get used to being disagreed with.
You, like everybody here, will float or sink on the force of your arguments and your facts.
You appear to find that harsh, but that´s the way it is on PPRuNe.
This is a moderated debating forum for dissenting adults.
So stop whining about the "tone" of people´s posts and stop whining about the moderating.
If you believe a post´s content to be against the forum rules, use the "report to moderator button"
on the left.Don´t whine on this thread.
If you don´t like the moderating, use the ´contact us´ link provided at the bottom of every page and tell PPRuNe Admin what you find problematic.
Don´t whine on this thread.
As voiced by several posters already, you and your views are very very welcome here.
But this is NOT mutual admiration society and if you want to participate, get used to being disagreed with.
You, like everybody here, will float or sink on the force of your arguments and your facts.
You appear to find that harsh, but that´s the way it is on PPRuNe.
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I've certainly enjoyed biteme's postings - especially his very telling "what would you do?" comment. It is obviously painful to realise that you've backed the wrong horse.
I haven't agreed with the way that BA/Flt Ops/IFCE has been heading over the last few years - especially the undermining of the captain's authority. Biteme may have saved BA some money over the years but I have witnessed BASSA costing BA a small fortune! The company is now trying to restore the balance of power and some of the "captains of the cabin" don't like it. They have become used to a privileged and entitled existance and are now shocked to see that they are easily replaced by new CSMs on less than half the money. Surely some mature negotiating rather than a blanket "no" from BASSA could have eased the pain?
I haven't agreed with the way that BA/Flt Ops/IFCE has been heading over the last few years - especially the undermining of the captain's authority. Biteme may have saved BA some money over the years but I have witnessed BASSA costing BA a small fortune! The company is now trying to restore the balance of power and some of the "captains of the cabin" don't like it. They have become used to a privileged and entitled existance and are now shocked to see that they are easily replaced by new CSMs on less than half the money. Surely some mature negotiating rather than a blanket "no" from BASSA could have eased the pain?
Last edited by Hot Wings; 28th Sep 2010 at 11:09.
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If Mr Holley is so inncocent will he I wonder be prepared to publish his written correspondance to CSD David G*** which was I believe the main reason he was asked into the LHR nick.
Surely if he has done nothing wrong he will happliy post these emails on the BASSA forum or here.
I challenge you Dunc. Go on.
Also would you confirm a rumour you are entitled to receive 5% of all BASSA funds per month (circa £8k/month)?
Is this true and if so can you tell your loyal members where the money goes?
Is it returned to BASSA or do you keep it?
I challenge you again Dunc, let's all have some answers eh?
Surely if he has done nothing wrong he will happliy post these emails on the BASSA forum or here.
I challenge you Dunc. Go on.
Also would you confirm a rumour you are entitled to receive 5% of all BASSA funds per month (circa £8k/month)?
Is this true and if so can you tell your loyal members where the money goes?
Is it returned to BASSA or do you keep it?
I challenge you again Dunc, let's all have some answers eh?
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Has biteme been banned ?
That would be a shame as I felt, although not based on anything that actually took place, their stuff was very readable.
The responses were also very readable.
With any luck, we'll get another one. Until then we'll never know any details of BASSA's latest attempt at finding a peaceful resolution !
If biteme has been banned, can we please have another proBassa member to put forward their side of the debate please?
That would be a shame as I felt, although not based on anything that actually took place, their stuff was very readable.
The responses were also very readable.
With any luck, we'll get another one. Until then we'll never know any details of BASSA's latest attempt at finding a peaceful resolution !
If biteme has been banned, can we please have another proBassa member to put forward their side of the debate please?
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It's hard to think of any reason why BASSA supporters, even moderates, would want to post on here any more. Anytime that they do, they are immediately ferociously attacked by a core pack of anti-BASSA resident contributors, all anxious to demonstrate to each other (nobody else cares) how very clever, witty and perceptive they are. The unsurprising result is that volunteers from the other side are somewhat thin on the ground. This is a great pity - we had hoped that this PPRuNe thread could be a venue where some kind of debate might occur: Instead it has become a de-facto mirror-image of the private BASSA forum.
Interestingly (with one or two significant exceptions) the more frequently a contributor posts, and the more aggressive, vitriolic, repetitive and tedious the content, the less likely he/she is to be cabin crew - very, few of those posting on this thread are actually CC and even fewer work for BA at all. This presumably allows a clarity of vision not available to those actually doing the job. The ROE for this thread allow currently employed airline staff to contribute and frankly, I'm coming to believe this was a mistake, but one that we are now forced to live with.
Well, that's it - I'm off to work a LAX now. I assume that by the time I log-on again tomorrow there will be a flurry of stream-of-consciousness posts from the usual group of those who are in love with the sound of their own keyboards. Better keep it polite though, as there are other mods on ground days who may pounce!
Interestingly (with one or two significant exceptions) the more frequently a contributor posts, and the more aggressive, vitriolic, repetitive and tedious the content, the less likely he/she is to be cabin crew - very, few of those posting on this thread are actually CC and even fewer work for BA at all. This presumably allows a clarity of vision not available to those actually doing the job. The ROE for this thread allow currently employed airline staff to contribute and frankly, I'm coming to believe this was a mistake, but one that we are now forced to live with.
Well, that's it - I'm off to work a LAX now. I assume that by the time I log-on again tomorrow there will be a flurry of stream-of-consciousness posts from the usual group of those who are in love with the sound of their own keyboards. Better keep it polite though, as there are other mods on ground days who may pounce!
I am not aware of this issue, I do now that about an occasion when a CC89 rep had an argument with a bassa rep and this resulted in the meeting being postponed. I believe it was over the fact that the CC89rep was taking VR and it was thought this might cloud his judgement. Personally I would have expected a more adult reaction from my rep on this occasion. My answer, I don’t believe the question is factual as bassa and CC89 must have been in the same room for the argument to ensue.
You obviously have been seriously misled or are choosing to underplay this incident.
The facts are that after an exchange of words between two reps, one BASSA on Amicus cabin crew, BASSA as a whole refused to sit in the same room as that individual they carried this behaviour to any location that the rep appeared including non related BA meetings and even to the Unite offices in Heathrow and believe it or not ACAS!
This led to a 'bullying and harrassment' case being brought against a number of BASSA reps by the Amicus rep, who by the way, had at that time only asked for a quote for VR. How they were aware was a mystery as well.
This behaviour typifies their attitude to colleagues and members alike they are the nastiest, cowardly group of bullies you will ever wish to meet.
In future don't make comments on things you have no knowledge of.
You obviously have been seriously misled or are choosing to underplay this incident.
The facts are that after an exchange of words between two reps, one BASSA on Amicus cabin crew, BASSA as a whole refused to sit in the same room as that individual they carried this behaviour to any location that the rep appeared including non related BA meetings and even to the Unite offices in Heathrow and believe it or not ACAS!
This led to a 'bullying and harrassment' case being brought against a number of BASSA reps by the Amicus rep, who by the way, had at that time only asked for a quote for VR. How they were aware was a mystery as well.
This behaviour typifies their attitude to colleagues and members alike they are the nastiest, cowardly group of bullies you will ever wish to meet.
In future don't make comments on things you have no knowledge of.
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Tightslot, that's a bit harsh, as your fellow mod said.....
Many of us outside Bassa are totally fed up with the threat the cabin crew pose to the future of our airline , and the current atmosphere of distrust and polarisation amongst crew themselves.
Most pilots will have worked during the strikes and saw the very real intimidation that the crew who worked had to face. These crew are now compelled to keep a very low profile generally to make their working life bearable.
I have just been told a story from a reliable (crew) source that during a recent briefing the csd made it clear that he had been on strike and lost his ST , hated pilots and management, insisted that the crew only communicated when absolutely necessary with the pilots - and were not to socialise with them at all. Then - on board - continually referred to the next strike and how he expected to see them all at Bedfont.
Nor did he do any security checks; simply calling the FD every hour from his chair!!
Crew are unable to discuss the issues for fear of reprisals and intimidation no matter what their viewpoint.
If I thought that the majority of crew supported Bassa's strategy (cough); or they were even able to present that plan in a coherent manner, maybe I, and others would feel more inclined to be supportive in return.
Instead various individuals come on here and - even if fairly lucid like Dave3 or Biteme - make false claims and reinvent history.
Biteme, we´re not running a love-in here.
This is a moderated debating forum for dissenting adults.
So stop whining about the "tone" of people´s posts and stop whining about the moderating.
If you believe a post´s content to be against the forum rules, use the "report to moderator button" on the left.
Don´t whine on this thread.
If you don´t like the moderating, use the ´contact us´ link provided at the bottom of every page and tell PPRuNe Admin what you find problematic.
Don´t whine on this thread.
This is a moderated debating forum for dissenting adults.
So stop whining about the "tone" of people´s posts and stop whining about the moderating.
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Most pilots will have worked during the strikes and saw the very real intimidation that the crew who worked had to face. These crew are now compelled to keep a very low profile generally to make their working life bearable.
I have just been told a story from a reliable (crew) source that during a recent briefing the csd made it clear that he had been on strike and lost his ST , hated pilots and management, insisted that the crew only communicated when absolutely necessary with the pilots - and were not to socialise with them at all. Then - on board - continually referred to the next strike and how he expected to see them all at Bedfont.
Nor did he do any security checks; simply calling the FD every hour from his chair!!
Crew are unable to discuss the issues for fear of reprisals and intimidation no matter what their viewpoint.
If I thought that the majority of crew supported Bassa's strategy (cough); or they were even able to present that plan in a coherent manner, maybe I, and others would feel more inclined to be supportive in return.
Instead various individuals come on here and - even if fairly lucid like Dave3 or Biteme - make false claims and reinvent history.
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I have wrote on this forum before.. I have been belittled for my dyslexia I have been demoralised and even called a liar, I was actualy in a briefing where a CSD did indeed say they hated Flight deck and management and that they went on strike... It actualy turned out that she had gone into work?? beggers belief
I have also stated on this forum that I hate no one and refuse to fall out with anyone over this dispute.. I feel we all have views.. some not as strong in their argument as others but never the less have views.. the hatred in some of the posts on this forum is unbelievable.. why was Biteme banned???? he/she was open to questions and debate.??? I think its time to get back to basics. remember we are all alowed a different view, some have paid for that view dearly but will continue to support what they believe in.
I have also stated on this forum that I hate no one and refuse to fall out with anyone over this dispute.. I feel we all have views.. some not as strong in their argument as others but never the less have views.. the hatred in some of the posts on this forum is unbelievable.. why was Biteme banned???? he/she was open to questions and debate.??? I think its time to get back to basics. remember we are all alowed a different view, some have paid for that view dearly but will continue to support what they believe in.
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The reference that Pornpants1 made to the BA v's Malone courtcase back in February serves as a great illustrator of what this thread is all about. On the one side we have had (a very welcome) small contingent of pro-BASSA rhetoric, admittedly somewhat overwhelmed by a vocal majority arguing against Bassa's actions. The difference between the two sides of the argument seems to me to be that on one side we have a narrow and self-interested 'Bassa-line', and on the other we have informed debate with quote's and references from independent and largely unbiased sources.
As for the claimed sense of unfairness being felt by those orchestrating this ongoing industrial action........I always find it amusing to think back to the final day of that court case, when the Bassa QC 'reasoned' that BA had taken inappropriate action with 'imposition', and could quite legitimately have simply issued 90 day's notice of 'change of contract' (I think the process is called 'OSSR' or something like that under employment law.....don't have the time to check at the moment). The BA QC then stood up and sarcastically thanked him for highlighting that potential route to achieving the cost savings desired by BA. I was there that day and remember the laughter around the Court.
Shortly after that court case, during the first strike, I asked a senior BA manager that I know personally about this process, and why BA were not pursuing it, and he said that the Leadership Team were keen to be seen to be fair, and not to be too aggressive. This, along with the fact that BA cabin crew have always been very well looked after by BA compared with crew from other airlines, suggests that the Bassa argument has always been a feeble one.
I very much hope that Biteme and others continue to post on this thread. It is important that both sides are vocal here, and to that end I hope the Moderators will allow open debate to continue (within the rules). This forum would be a poorer place without it.
As for the claimed sense of unfairness being felt by those orchestrating this ongoing industrial action........I always find it amusing to think back to the final day of that court case, when the Bassa QC 'reasoned' that BA had taken inappropriate action with 'imposition', and could quite legitimately have simply issued 90 day's notice of 'change of contract' (I think the process is called 'OSSR' or something like that under employment law.....don't have the time to check at the moment). The BA QC then stood up and sarcastically thanked him for highlighting that potential route to achieving the cost savings desired by BA. I was there that day and remember the laughter around the Court.
Shortly after that court case, during the first strike, I asked a senior BA manager that I know personally about this process, and why BA were not pursuing it, and he said that the Leadership Team were keen to be seen to be fair, and not to be too aggressive. This, along with the fact that BA cabin crew have always been very well looked after by BA compared with crew from other airlines, suggests that the Bassa argument has always been a feeble one.
I very much hope that Biteme and others continue to post on this thread. It is important that both sides are vocal here, and to that end I hope the Moderators will allow open debate to continue (within the rules). This forum would be a poorer place without it.