British Airways vs. BASSA (current Airline Staff Only)

[Betty girl]

Well maybe I over reacted but some posts had an antagonistic tone to them and when someone is a minority it can be a bit intimidating having everyone pick him up on every little detail of his/her posts.

[numberfifteenplease]

Please explain how what I wrote shows "no great knowledge of the why's the wherefore's or the outcome"

As you yourself said - you dont work for BA, your 'knowledge' is simply second hand through forums like this or newspapers such as th e'Daily Mail' which prints total garbage

[numberfifteenplease]

Betty Girl

Thank you for the support = I can understand why many people who try to debate leave this particular forum and never return - it is the supercilious personalities of some of the posters which force people away

[numberfifteenplease]

Fargoo

That all comes back to having your cake and eating it unfortunately. When the company has been so badly damaged to the tune of millions of pounds and lost future business I'm not surprised that the management has chosen to take the hard line.

At the end of this dispute there will still be a business to run - there is now an atmosphere of mistrust and loathing (from both sides) which I believe could have longer term damaging effects on the business.

[Syndicate9]

As most Unite members seem to believe now that BA is in fact trying to destroy their union and not just win this dispute, I can't see how any of their members will be likely to want to change their elected representatives.
Similarly, those outside of Unite and particularly those from other departments believe that Unite is out to destroy BA.
In any war the first casualty is truth. Unfortunately both sides have backed themselves into a corner and we are left looking for a way out.

[Runway vacated]

Except it hasn't quite worked out like that has it, no.15? BA have shown extraordinary patience and have only used the ultimate sanction of dismissal against a few individuals who have engaged in activity which is either illegal or a gross breach of company regulations.

And Syndicate 9, as for 'most' UNITE members seeing this as an attempt at union busting, well in my experience nothing could be further from the truth. If anything they are sick of seeing the cost savings they have agreed being wilfully squandered by the least qualified, most easily replaced people in the airline. They most certainly do not appreciate being lumped in with BASSA and regard the CC dispute as a long overdue reckoning.

Should the UNITE leadership try and exercise any leverage over BA by trying to conjur up some support amongst the non BASSA membership, they are in for a nasty surprise. Again, Tony Woodley and WW know this.

[ottergirl]

Bettygirl

Also there is a clause that says if there weight does not stay in proportion to their height they can be dismissed.

Well I'll be looking forward to seeing how BA defend that one in the first Industrial tribunal; does Virgin get away with that? In 2010 that seems a bit iffy. The temp I flew with last week was of the same mind as the ones you met. They really have not been well-treated of late and their rock-bottom morale is hardly going to fuel the high enthusiasm IFCE are hoping will prevail on MF. But then you read some of the posts on the wannabe forunm and there are some genuinely excited people on there. We are trading on reputation; the BA they think they are joining is not the one they are going to get! Interesting times ahead!

Night night!

[Betty girl]

Yes very interesting.

I feel so bad for all these new crew and whatever happens I do hope they enjoy working for BA like I have.

I am also sad that we wont be seeing any new entrants on our fleets.

[ottergirl]

Bigbrutha

It may not meet with your world view but many of us are extremely pleased that BA are taking a "hardline" with people in your department. Crew have been closeted from the real corporate world for too long- partly due to management weakness/incompetence and partly due to BASSA "muscle". No longer.

Some of the shennanigans that crew have been involved in in the past will not stand in this company any longer. And nor should this sort of behaviour be allowed to continue unchecked.

Actually I would like to point out that CC have a relatively good IA record in comparison to say Ground staff. Three years in a row BA was bought to a stand still over the summer - 2003 Ground staff, 2004 Ground staff and 2005 loaders and yes, you guessed it, Ground staff (in sympathy with Gate Gourmet)! The last cabin crew IA was in 1997, every 12 years is hardly militance in the extreme. This is the third CC strike in my 23 years service. Painting us as some kind of evil, persistant, company destroying dept is grossly inaccurate.

[button44]

Sorry mods, but couldn't let this pass.
Betty girl said
Well maybe I over reacted but some posts had an antagonistic tone to them and when someone is a minority it can be a bit intimidating having everyone pick him up on every little detail of his/her posts.

I also think you, Flying Nun, Otter Girl and Jetset Lady, were less than understanding of PTC posts...as a fly on the wall I could see nothing that merited your reactions, which poured cold water and doom on a person showing the kind of enthusiasm that as a SLF it would be nice to see....actually, I have had nothing but praise for the CCs I've encountered so far flying with BA....thank you.

[Pornpants1]

Ottergirl

The last cabin crew IA was in 1997, every 12 years is hardly militance in the extreme. This is the third CC strike in my 23 years service. Painting us as some kind of evil, persistant, company destroying dept is grossly inaccurate.

January 2007 springs to mind also, mass cancellation of flights over the first 3 day period of threatened industrial action, before Tony Woodley stepped in and put BASSA in its place. The damage was however already done.

Snow disruption 2009, BASSA refuse alleviations and insist on 2 local nights for diverted crew.

As above but January 2010.

You don't always have to strike to cause pain and disruption

[Betty girl]

button44,
I have gone back and reread ptc's post and I think it might be because you don't fly, you therefore don't understand the politics of what he/she was saying.

Having reread what he/she said I still get a horrid creepy feeling in my gut about the nature of his/her posts and the inference that those of us on other fleets do not treat the flight crew well.

Please believe me when I tell you that flight crew do get fed on all flights.

Rest assured that most crew do have a good relationship with the flight crew. Rereading what I posted at the time I don't feel I said anything bad to ptc it was more a reaction of shock at the way he/she had posted.

Why do you post if you know you are not supposed to? You don't need to answer that.

I am however pleased that you have had good service from BA cabin crew. I would also point out that ottergirl, flying nun, jetset lady and myself are all very dedicated crew. None of us striked, all of us have good working relationships with flight crew and all of us have been very supportive of Temps like ptc and new crew going to Mixed Fleet.

[Tiramisu]

button44 said to Betty girl,
I also think you, Flying Nun, Otter Girl and Jetset Lady, were less than understanding of PTC posts...as a fly on the wall I could see nothing that merited your reactions, which poured cold water and doom on a person showing the kind of enthusiasm that as a SLF it would be nice to see....actually, I have had nothing but praise for the CCs I've encountered so far flying with BA....thank you.

button44,
In defence of Betty girl, Flying Nun, Otter Girl and Jetset Lady, I was also of the same opinion as all of them, having read ptc's post though I didn't post as I was away. They all also all happen to be some of BA's finest crew and none of them would intentionally pour cold water an any one showing enthusiasm on joining BA.

[Right Engine]

15

Without being there I wouldn't be able to comment - so you are saying this person actually instigated a full blown grievance procedure against you?

They tried but within a day it was laughed out of the office!

Just wanted you to know that there are some crew out there who are capable of manipulating the system ( or attempting to )

[GearUp CheerUp]

As most Unite members seem to believe now that BA is in fact trying to destroy their union and not just win this dispute, I can't see how any of their members will be likely to want to change their elected representatives.
Similarly, those outside of Unite and particularly those from other departments believe that Unite is out to destroy BA.
In any war the first casualty is truth. Unfortunately both sides have backed themselves into a corner and we are left looking for a way out.

How are BA management looking for a way out?

They have been successful in removing a crewmember off each aircraft, so saving £60m per year and thay have the additional savings of NF to look forward to.

They know (as do the BASSA high command and Unite) that any further strikes will be even more ineffectual as the last, as they now have sufficient VCCs to operate at least 100% of LH and a good proportion of SH as well.

[numberfifteenplease]

Right Engine

They tried but within a day it was laughed out of the office!

And so it should have been, we are all going to have to work together after this dispute (both sides of the door) - I guess one of my concerns will be the ill feeling that will exist for some people - both Cabin Crew and Flight Crew, lets just hope that when it is over we can get back to doing what we enjoy and making BA into a great airline once again.

[numberfifteenplease]

BigBrutha

No malice meant in my previous posting - just egging you on a tad

[ottergirl]

which poured cold water and doom on a person showing the kind of enthusiasm that as a SLF it would be nice to see

We weren't pouring cold water on ptc's enthusiasm, just on the inference that ptc was making that we all treat the flight crew badly and they were lucky because she/he was coming to rescue them.

They all also all happen to be some of BA's finest crew

Aaah, thanks Tiramisu. We've missed you.

[Colonel White]

As most Unite members seem to believe now that BA is in fact trying to destroy their union and not just win this dispute, I can't see how any of their members will be likely to want to change their elected representatives.
Similarly, those outside of Unite and particularly those from other departments believe that Unite is out to destroy BA.
In any war the first casualty is truth. Unfortunately both sides have backed themselves into a corner and we are left looking for a way out.

Some mighty big assumptions here.
a) Do most Unite members believe BA is tryng to destroy Unite ? Look at this objectively. You are suggesting that a company that employs about 40,000 staff, roughly half of whom are Unite members is trying to bring about the downfall of a union with 1.5 million members. Does that sound credible ? If Unite is that wobbly, what protection can they afford members ? Sort of undermines their raison d'aitre. Would you want to join an enterprise that could be reduced to naught by another that is under 5% of its size ?

b) Other departments have seen how Unite has been willing to reach agreements with BA management, so no, all the good people outside of cabin crew don't believe that Unite is out to bring about the demise of BA. What is very difficult to understand is how one branch of Unite can operate in a way that is opposite to that of other branches. Put simply, how is it that BASSA are unwilling or unable to work with BA management in the same way as their counterparts in Unite have. It's not Unite that seem to want to trash the company, but BASSA.

Have BA management backed themselves into a corner ? No. They've achieved a level of cost savings. They've got the changes in working practices they sought (even if the appeal court rules that manning levels are part and parcel of individual staff member's contracts of employment, they will not roll back the changes). They've been able to introduce lower cost base cabin crew. They are now moving on. I'd say that from a BA management view this dispute is over. BASSA have played the strike card. It didn't halt the company and the longer the union seeks to drag this on, the more that support will ebb away. Oh sure, there will be a small nucleus who may wish to perpetuate the fight, but that is the case in any dispute. There's always someone who isn't completely happy with the end result. Time now to patch up differences between the strikers and non-strikers. The sooner that Unite signal an end to hostilities, the quicker that BA management will restore staff travel to those who walked out. Clearly, BA management aren't likely to make that move whilst the union are indicating that they are still in dispute. The ball is firmly in Unite's court.

[MissM]

BA is becoming a great place to work at. As of October 7th we will have to work with VCC on certain WW flights. At least it removes some of the pressure on our EF colleagues who have had to work with them for some time but it's outrageous and provocative. We shouldn't be forced to work with people who are nothing but prolonging our dispute.

Fingers crossed we will have a good result in court. I really hope they will rule in favour for Unite and make BA reimburse every single penny which commuters have to spend on ticket and hotel costs because they lost their staff travel concessions for participating in a lawful industrial action. That would make my day!