British Airways vs. BASSA (current Airline Staff Only)
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Which bases took a pay cut to fund aircraft?
I hear the John Lewis model mentioned a lot, but the differences between JL and BA are huge. John Lewis is a partnership, owned by the staff, and it exists to make money for the staff. That shows every time you walk into a branch. BA is owned by it's shareholders, and it exists to make money for them.
One comparison between the two companies really summed it up to me. During the snow disruption a branch of John Lewis became snowed in (High Wycombe branch I believe). Many customers couldn't free their cars, and having made long journeys in they couldn't get home. The manager of the branch decided to allow them all to stay in the store overnight, sleeping on the demonstration beds even, whilst the staff, who lived locally and could have got home, volunteered to stay. Compare this with the actions of cabin crew during BA's disruption, who demanded their two local nights off after a diversion because it was in the agreement, leaving passengers stranded longer than necessary. BA cabin crew want the benefits of all the companies they see around them, but are unwilling as a group to accept the sacrifices that go with these rewards.
I hear the John Lewis model mentioned a lot, but the differences between JL and BA are huge. John Lewis is a partnership, owned by the staff, and it exists to make money for the staff. That shows every time you walk into a branch. BA is owned by it's shareholders, and it exists to make money for them.
One comparison between the two companies really summed it up to me. During the snow disruption a branch of John Lewis became snowed in (High Wycombe branch I believe). Many customers couldn't free their cars, and having made long journeys in they couldn't get home. The manager of the branch decided to allow them all to stay in the store overnight, sleeping on the demonstration beds even, whilst the staff, who lived locally and could have got home, volunteered to stay. Compare this with the actions of cabin crew during BA's disruption, who demanded their two local nights off after a diversion because it was in the agreement, leaving passengers stranded longer than necessary. BA cabin crew want the benefits of all the companies they see around them, but are unwilling as a group to accept the sacrifices that go with these rewards.
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Dave - lovely idea, I think JL has a great ethos (not without scandal if memory serves me well) but even so, I think they have a superb idealism that seems to work well.
Problem is, BA business model never claimed to be that. Therefore our investors did not invest in such a model and therefore I do not see how we can change from what we have? Also quite possible the employees of JL several years ago, would have left in a heartbeat to join BA on a significantly higher salary and superb perks.
We have to compare ourselves with other airlines buddy - and those fall into three main categories 1) low cost (or promoted as low cost, but actually low service - same cost. 2) state owned/supported 3) the rest (us) - generally if you look around the world it is those in category 3 that are really struggling and going under!
anything else is simply not accepting the facts and wishing things were otherwise. As much as I 'wish' it were different, it simply is not.
Problem is, BA business model never claimed to be that. Therefore our investors did not invest in such a model and therefore I do not see how we can change from what we have? Also quite possible the employees of JL several years ago, would have left in a heartbeat to join BA on a significantly higher salary and superb perks.
We have to compare ourselves with other airlines buddy - and those fall into three main categories 1) low cost (or promoted as low cost, but actually low service - same cost. 2) state owned/supported 3) the rest (us) - generally if you look around the world it is those in category 3 that are really struggling and going under!
anything else is simply not accepting the facts and wishing things were otherwise. As much as I 'wish' it were different, it simply is not.
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Pornpants you are correct we have not been given any shares. imho it wasnt bassa that stoped us being given these shares... there must be some profit for the managers to gain them . I do know a large group of people who have and will be getting more shares though..
The base that gave up the money was Manchester.
The base that gave up the money was Manchester.
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Given that the shares would be a profit-related bonus then there obviously has to be a profit for managers to get the shares. There has to be a profit for everyone. £5000 per crew member for new aircraft sounds a little on the high side given the baseline income of your average BAR crew member.
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Dave,
it too worked in the regions and for BAR. I too took a pay cut of several £1000's per year for job security. New planes were mentioned but the way it was sold to us was 'aspirational' and not a guarantee. Simply we needed to address our cost base (to compete with the regional UK airlines) and invest in our fleet to attract customers back. Sadly this all came to late and the 'planes' we wanted, simply did not fit the new needs of the business as BA move slowly and the market moves quickly. Therefore BHX ended up with Airbus and MAN kept the 737 - that was what the market dictated and those in BHX gave as much as did those in MAN. BHX did a good job for many years keeping the 'low cost' out of their airport whereas MAN opened the door for anybody and even heavily discounted their pax handling/landing fees too (expansion at any cost for MAN, seems to have beackfired though..last time I was there it seemed a big empty airfield!).
What I did get for my salary sacrficie though was many years still working for BA that simply would not have been had we not taken the salary sacrfice back then. (for those who have no knowledge of regional ops, the planes ALWAYS belonged to BA, the regional management team were under instructions from BA they their existance and value to BA relied on them being competitive against UK regional carriers and of they could reduce their costs then BA might be tempted to invest in the regions and supply some better planes - this, in part, was delivered with the A319 to BHX - which was then taken back to LHR when we could not fill them and has to downsize to ER4 and RJ100).
I am in little doubt that BA would have sold MAN/BHX operations to Maersk (remember them anyone) who were waiting in the wings at BHX, just like they eventually did to FlyBe, 3-4 years ago if we had not taken the salary sacrifice back then. So in my opinion that was a good decision I made as it kept me in good employment and my family looked after.
nb: interesting footnote to this. The top union man the TGWU bought in for this negotiation was very interesting. He originally came in and told us 'they cannot do this to you' , 'your brothers and sisters in London will support you'. He used this to get the support and backing of the local staff/union members. Next time he came, he told us sadly London would not suuport us and we would be better to take the deal - it narrowly got through. Not long after, he left the union and was next heard of working for BA as an industrial negotiator (not sure if its true but staff were horrified when their local reps told them this).
it too worked in the regions and for BAR. I too took a pay cut of several £1000's per year for job security. New planes were mentioned but the way it was sold to us was 'aspirational' and not a guarantee. Simply we needed to address our cost base (to compete with the regional UK airlines) and invest in our fleet to attract customers back. Sadly this all came to late and the 'planes' we wanted, simply did not fit the new needs of the business as BA move slowly and the market moves quickly. Therefore BHX ended up with Airbus and MAN kept the 737 - that was what the market dictated and those in BHX gave as much as did those in MAN. BHX did a good job for many years keeping the 'low cost' out of their airport whereas MAN opened the door for anybody and even heavily discounted their pax handling/landing fees too (expansion at any cost for MAN, seems to have beackfired though..last time I was there it seemed a big empty airfield!).
What I did get for my salary sacrficie though was many years still working for BA that simply would not have been had we not taken the salary sacrfice back then. (for those who have no knowledge of regional ops, the planes ALWAYS belonged to BA, the regional management team were under instructions from BA they their existance and value to BA relied on them being competitive against UK regional carriers and of they could reduce their costs then BA might be tempted to invest in the regions and supply some better planes - this, in part, was delivered with the A319 to BHX - which was then taken back to LHR when we could not fill them and has to downsize to ER4 and RJ100).
I am in little doubt that BA would have sold MAN/BHX operations to Maersk (remember them anyone) who were waiting in the wings at BHX, just like they eventually did to FlyBe, 3-4 years ago if we had not taken the salary sacrifice back then. So in my opinion that was a good decision I made as it kept me in good employment and my family looked after.
nb: interesting footnote to this. The top union man the TGWU bought in for this negotiation was very interesting. He originally came in and told us 'they cannot do this to you' , 'your brothers and sisters in London will support you'. He used this to get the support and backing of the local staff/union members. Next time he came, he told us sadly London would not suuport us and we would be better to take the deal - it narrowly got through. Not long after, he left the union and was next heard of working for BA as an industrial negotiator (not sure if its true but staff were horrified when their local reps told them this).
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OPS what you say is correct nice to debate this with someone who was going through the same things at the time.. also with the change came the right of BA to withdraw the offer of any promotion..so many regional base members have done 20++ years and will never have the chance of promotion (I think it was the burford bridge agreement that was in place then )... You are quite right when you state tha LHR would not give up any slots to the Manchester crew to enable us to stay open.. we were told at the time " why should LHR give up any slots for anyone! they are our slots its our work.." lets not forget though that this was also backed by the company. We needed to look forward in order to stay employed.. and arguing with the company or the unions in london at the time would never have kept our base open. it does upset me though to realise that LHR crew are paid to do the shuttles now and are paid by the company to stay in hotels over night to do the work we did well at Manchester..
It still costs alot of the commuters a lot of money to commute.. I moved down however many had husbands /wives with buisnesses and also had family in the north and simply couldnt up and leave..
It still costs alot of the commuters a lot of money to commute.. I moved down however many had husbands /wives with buisnesses and also had family in the north and simply couldnt up and leave..
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On a lighter note,with the anniversary of this action just around the corner will BASSA/UNITE or BA be holding any kind of celebrations ?
maybe a new lanyard ,pen set,New on board beer (Castlemaine 4X perhaps) or a new duty free doll (with a hat) perhaps ?
maybe a new lanyard ,pen set,New on board beer (Castlemaine 4X perhaps) or a new duty free doll (with a hat) perhaps ?
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Ill see you in the CRC (with hat) in Nov, starting my course for MF next week.
Ive flown with various airlines for many years and have taken a position as main crew on MF. I am realistic and I do know the current contract and conditions are not ideal HOWEVER, I still love my job and treat everyone ( inc crew) with respect.
Flight crew, on my flights you are part of our team and whatever is available or left over I will always offer to you!! Look forward to working with you all!!
Ive flown with various airlines for many years and have taken a position as main crew on MF. I am realistic and I do know the current contract and conditions are not ideal HOWEVER, I still love my job and treat everyone ( inc crew) with respect.
Flight crew, on my flights you are part of our team and whatever is available or left over I will always offer to you!! Look forward to working with you all!!
ptc,
Your comments regarding offering food to flight crew is good to hear.
I have already heard colleagues stating that they intend to bid for 'NF' trips just so they can get back to the 'good old days' of socialising and enjoying each other's company!
To be fair, the VAST majority of crews are still a pleasure to fly with. Most of them are also willing to offer us flight crew food as well! Thankfully it appears as if it is just a small, but often VERY nasty minority, who are not interested in even being polite sometimes.
Your comments regarding offering food to flight crew is good to hear.
I have already heard colleagues stating that they intend to bid for 'NF' trips just so they can get back to the 'good old days' of socialising and enjoying each other's company!
To be fair, the VAST majority of crews are still a pleasure to fly with. Most of them are also willing to offer us flight crew food as well! Thankfully it appears as if it is just a small, but often VERY nasty minority, who are not interested in even being polite sometimes.
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ptc,
Welcome aboard! It's very refreshing to read your comments. I wish you all the best on your course.
I'm reminded of a 777 skipper's comments to me about working with AML cabin crew. He said he "hated" it because it ruined the rest of his month when he had to fly with mainline BA crew - he had seen how nice it could be at work!
Welcome aboard! It's very refreshing to read your comments. I wish you all the best on your course.
I'm reminded of a 777 skipper's comments to me about working with AML cabin crew. He said he "hated" it because it ruined the rest of his month when he had to fly with mainline BA crew - he had seen how nice it could be at work!
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Sporran
I am pleased to hear that you have flown with some nice crew who treat you the way you deserve! Of late , I have flown with a number of crew who are constantly slagging off flight crew, to my disgust! These folk should really not be here and leave in my opinion!
Hot Wings
I can assure you that us NF ( ex temps) will be all fun to fly with!
Looking forward to now spending time down route , chatting to colleagues about anything
but BASSA and strikes! Oh and if anyone out there is about to say that we won't be
having free time 'downroute', well we will!!!!!
I am pleased to hear that you have flown with some nice crew who treat you the way you deserve! Of late , I have flown with a number of crew who are constantly slagging off flight crew, to my disgust! These folk should really not be here and leave in my opinion!
Hot Wings
I can assure you that us NF ( ex temps) will be all fun to fly with!
Looking forward to now spending time down route , chatting to colleagues about anything
but BASSA and strikes! Oh and if anyone out there is about to say that we won't be
having free time 'downroute', well we will!!!!!
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Dear Duncan
I am waiting for you to respond on here or on BASSA to my two challenges.
Just in case you have already cracked open your bottle of wine this evening I'll repeat them.
1. Are you prepared to publish on here or on your own forum the personal correspondence between you and CSD David G***n who you "outed" as a "scab" on the BASSA forum and was the reason you were asked into Heathrow Police?
2. Can you confirm or deny that you accept the 5%/month of BASSA subs (approx £8k) that the Branch Secretary is entitled to receive? If not where do they go?
Simple questions Dunc. Funny how no-one asks them on your own forum.
Come on you have the balls surely?
I am waiting for you to respond on here or on BASSA to my two challenges.
Just in case you have already cracked open your bottle of wine this evening I'll repeat them.
1. Are you prepared to publish on here or on your own forum the personal correspondence between you and CSD David G***n who you "outed" as a "scab" on the BASSA forum and was the reason you were asked into Heathrow Police?
2. Can you confirm or deny that you accept the 5%/month of BASSA subs (approx £8k) that the Branch Secretary is entitled to receive? If not where do they go?
Simple questions Dunc. Funny how no-one asks them on your own forum.
Come on you have the balls surely?
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I have to say, I have flown with nothing but lovely crews recently. Sometimes people come out for a drink, sometimes they dont - twas ever thus.
I am pleasant, friendly and respectful to all crew I fly with, regardless of some of the initial frostiness we can receive - thankfully rare.
I fly on the 777, so will fly with MF, WW and SFLGW crews. It will be interesting to compare. IMHO there is very little in service quality between LHR and LGW. The best crews at LHR are poetry in motion, but with the current dispute, there is much less willingness to go the extra mile.
One thing I think we all can agree on, is that we ALL want this over with, so that BA can become the world beater we all want it to.
I am pleasant, friendly and respectful to all crew I fly with, regardless of some of the initial frostiness we can receive - thankfully rare.
I fly on the 777, so will fly with MF, WW and SFLGW crews. It will be interesting to compare. IMHO there is very little in service quality between LHR and LGW. The best crews at LHR are poetry in motion, but with the current dispute, there is much less willingness to go the extra mile.
One thing I think we all can agree on, is that we ALL want this over with, so that BA can become the world beater we all want it to.
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I'm just curious, and this is a genuine question relevant to this debate...........how many of the BASSA reps involved in the negotiations during the demise of the region bases, were from those bases? I would be happy to be proved wrong in my suspicion that the answer is not many, or none.
Answer? Anyone?
If I am correct, then can we not draw parallels with what happened at Gatwick? Can we not therefore draw conclusions about why so much trouble has been caused over the imposition of a reduction in crew at Heathrow, which resulted in a large number of BASSA reps (ie. CSD's) having to work in the cabin.
Maybe Duncan Holly might like to put the record straight here on PPRuNe
Answer? Anyone?
If I am correct, then can we not draw parallels with what happened at Gatwick? Can we not therefore draw conclusions about why so much trouble has been caused over the imposition of a reduction in crew at Heathrow, which resulted in a large number of BASSA reps (ie. CSD's) having to work in the cabin.
Maybe Duncan Holly might like to put the record straight here on PPRuNe
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123breath, you certainly have a very valid point
Some months ago when BASSA were aligning themselves to anything that vaguely fitted the cause they alighted on a verse that was borne out of the persecution of certain people in WW2 and the result of not taking action to resist. BASSA constructed a parody and made a parallel to the lack of resistance to the demise of the BA regions , of LGW and the need there to make huge savings, and now the focus was being shifted to LHR crew. The parody ended "...and then they came for me" inferring that it was now time for LHR to actually make a stand.
I did respond that "...and then they came LHR, so I sent them back to LGW to give some more" but think it was deleted pretty quickly.
Sums it up I feel!
Some months ago when BASSA were aligning themselves to anything that vaguely fitted the cause they alighted on a verse that was borne out of the persecution of certain people in WW2 and the result of not taking action to resist. BASSA constructed a parody and made a parallel to the lack of resistance to the demise of the BA regions , of LGW and the need there to make huge savings, and now the focus was being shifted to LHR crew. The parody ended "...and then they came for me" inferring that it was now time for LHR to actually make a stand.
I did respond that "...and then they came LHR, so I sent them back to LGW to give some more" but think it was deleted pretty quickly.
Sums it up I feel!
Last edited by Rover90; 28th Sep 2010 at 22:30.