British Airways vs. BASSA (Airline Staff Only)
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Hi M.Mouse,
I support Bassa because the reps are committed to securing the best terms and conditions possible for their members. However, I grant you, sometimes they get things wrong and push things too far. But without Bassa we'd be in a hell of a position (I know it could be argued that we already are, but that's a matter of personal opinion).
However, just because one supports Bassa in general, doesn't mean they support every decision Bassa makes. Nor does it mean they'll go along with industrial action the union imposes at the request of the majority of its members - many of whom appear to have let the union down when it most need their support.
There are people who think Bassa can do no wrong. I'm not one of those people. But I recognise that for a union dealing with 14,000 people (even the non-members are impacted by the actions of Bassa) it's impossible to please everyone all the time.
I support Bassa because the reps are committed to securing the best terms and conditions possible for their members. However, I grant you, sometimes they get things wrong and push things too far. But without Bassa we'd be in a hell of a position (I know it could be argued that we already are, but that's a matter of personal opinion).
However, just because one supports Bassa in general, doesn't mean they support every decision Bassa makes. Nor does it mean they'll go along with industrial action the union imposes at the request of the majority of its members - many of whom appear to have let the union down when it most need their support.
There are people who think Bassa can do no wrong. I'm not one of those people. But I recognise that for a union dealing with 14,000 people (even the non-members are impacted by the actions of Bassa) it's impossible to please everyone all the time.
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Hi Eddy,
Do you believe that
a) The best way to secure the best possible deal for the cabin crew is to refuse to negotiate on permanent cost savings (as "voted" for at a race course meeting)?
b) Or that this time last year you expect your reps to be in a room with BA thrashing out a deal (after taking into account the wishes of the membership). After they have got as much as possible from BA the resulting deal is put forward for a ballot. If accepted by the majority the deal is implemented.
What has occurred is a. If you thought at the time that was the way to go when you review that decision today do you still hold that it was the right call?
Do you believe that
a) The best way to secure the best possible deal for the cabin crew is to refuse to negotiate on permanent cost savings (as "voted" for at a race course meeting)?
b) Or that this time last year you expect your reps to be in a room with BA thrashing out a deal (after taking into account the wishes of the membership). After they have got as much as possible from BA the resulting deal is put forward for a ballot. If accepted by the majority the deal is implemented.
What has occurred is a. If you thought at the time that was the way to go when you review that decision today do you still hold that it was the right call?
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Originally Posted by TheKabaka
Hi Eddy,
Originally Posted by TheKabaka
Do you believe that....
Originally Posted by TheKabaka
a) The best way to secure the best possible deal for the cabin crew is to refuse to negotiate on permanent cost savings (as "voted" for at a race course meeting)?
Originally Posted by TheKabaka
b) Or that this time last year you expect your reps to be in a room with BA thrashing out a deal (after taking into account the wishes of the membership). After they have got as much as possible from BA the resulting deal is put forward for a ballot. If accepted by the majority the deal is implemented.
Originally Posted by TheKabaka
What has occurred is a. If you thought at the time that was the way to go when you review that decision today do you still hold that it was the right call?
Controversial, moi?
Thank you for your reply. I admire your loyalty, which is something often lacking in many walks of life.
What I find quite extraordinary in this whole sorry mess is that CC have many, many areas where, for little cost in terms of lifestyle, money or effort, the savings WW wanted could have been found. To say otherwise would be untrue when we all know that every department in BA, and I include my group, have very nice little parts to our agreements which, overall, are pretty indefensible. Many of them have gone over the years e.g. the pilot's dining room in Queens Building, the pilot's dormitory in Queens Building but some still remain and in fact are useful bargaining chips.
Changes to crewing levels and dispensing with the current archaic and unpopular with all parties disruption agreement are just two items alone holding high value and which could have been used in negotiations. When I look at what was last offered pre-strike and what WAS on offer last June I scratch my head and ask how on earth could the blindingly obvious way to proceed not been seen?
With the impasse of Unite wanting the return of ST to strikers and the dropping of some (if not all) current disciplinaries I cannot see agreement being reached. I also don't see WW too bothered. Whichever way you look at it the previous strike days were relatively cheap and relatively unsuccessful. Further strike calls will be even more widely ignored and eventually the remaining strikers will either be sacked or return to work.
If I was in BASSA, and I recognise the need for a strong union, I would be shouting from the rooftops that the conduct of the union in the past 18 months has been a disgrace. It needs change from within. The formation of the PCCC, like CC89, will cause as many problems as it solves by dividing a large workforce and creating internal divisions but, like the events of a few years ago when BALPA elections led to a major clear out of reps who had lost the confidence of those they purported to represent, it needs some intelligent and committed people to stand for election and displace the current incumbents so that CC's interests can be properly represented.
WW is far from anti CC. I am sure he would welcome dealing with a strong but intelligent and committed group of CC representatives. He recognises how good BA CC can be and that they play a major part in the passenger's experience of flying with us. What I do know though is that he has currently had enough of dealing with the current union in the guise of BASSA who are seen as uncooperative, disruptive and the cause of great expense and are now reaping the benefit of years of unacceptable behaviour having met their match with someone who says what he means and means what he says.
What I find quite extraordinary in this whole sorry mess is that CC have many, many areas where, for little cost in terms of lifestyle, money or effort, the savings WW wanted could have been found. To say otherwise would be untrue when we all know that every department in BA, and I include my group, have very nice little parts to our agreements which, overall, are pretty indefensible. Many of them have gone over the years e.g. the pilot's dining room in Queens Building, the pilot's dormitory in Queens Building but some still remain and in fact are useful bargaining chips.
Changes to crewing levels and dispensing with the current archaic and unpopular with all parties disruption agreement are just two items alone holding high value and which could have been used in negotiations. When I look at what was last offered pre-strike and what WAS on offer last June I scratch my head and ask how on earth could the blindingly obvious way to proceed not been seen?
With the impasse of Unite wanting the return of ST to strikers and the dropping of some (if not all) current disciplinaries I cannot see agreement being reached. I also don't see WW too bothered. Whichever way you look at it the previous strike days were relatively cheap and relatively unsuccessful. Further strike calls will be even more widely ignored and eventually the remaining strikers will either be sacked or return to work.
If I was in BASSA, and I recognise the need for a strong union, I would be shouting from the rooftops that the conduct of the union in the past 18 months has been a disgrace. It needs change from within. The formation of the PCCC, like CC89, will cause as many problems as it solves by dividing a large workforce and creating internal divisions but, like the events of a few years ago when BALPA elections led to a major clear out of reps who had lost the confidence of those they purported to represent, it needs some intelligent and committed people to stand for election and displace the current incumbents so that CC's interests can be properly represented.
WW is far from anti CC. I am sure he would welcome dealing with a strong but intelligent and committed group of CC representatives. He recognises how good BA CC can be and that they play a major part in the passenger's experience of flying with us. What I do know though is that he has currently had enough of dealing with the current union in the guise of BASSA who are seen as uncooperative, disruptive and the cause of great expense and are now reaping the benefit of years of unacceptable behaviour having met their match with someone who says what he means and means what he says.
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Well absolutely, but I'm an absolute outsider. I don't know what goes on between the company and the union behind closed doors
I wrote a long list of evidence out but ran out of patience. It has all being on the various threads. The judgement from the case about contractual changes is compulsory reading if you are in BASSA.
If a union does not achieve the best result for its members it should be ashamed.
Also as an aside I could understand BASSA demanding reinstatement of crew in disciplinary hearings if they believed them to be kangaroo courts. However if the proper process has taken place, how can they complain?
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Disciplinary process
TheKabaka wrote:
BA has a detailed disciplinary procedures policy known as EG901. I have no experience of it, but I can quote some relevant bits from it.
Also as an aside I could understand BASSA demanding reinstatement of crew in disciplinary hearings if they believed them to be kangaroo courts. However if the proper process has taken place, how can they complain?
DISCIPLINARY CODE AND APPEALS
1. INTRODUCTION
Disciplinary action, including dismissal may be taken by British Airways against any
employee for a variety of offences. Every offence will be considered in the light of
its own circumstances and disciplinary action decided upon according to the merits of the case.
2. BRITISH AIRWAYS POLICY
It is British Airways policy to:
2.1 Provide fair, equitable and reasonable treatment.
2.2 Give employees adequate rights and means of representation in all disciplinary matters.
2.3 Provide employees with a right of appeal.
3. DISCIPLINARY PROCEDURE
3.1 During all stages of the procedure the employee may be accompanied by a person who fits into one of the following categories:
(i) an official of a trade union who is employed by the trade union;
(ii) an official of a trade union who is certified in writing by their union as
having experience of, or having received training in, acting as a worker’s
companion at disciplinary hearings; or
(iii) another person who works at British Airways.
This will usually include the employee’s local trade union representatives and their
work colleagues.
3.2 A representative from the Human Resources function will support, advise and/or attend during the investigation and hearing stages of the procedure as appropriate. At all the Appeal stages of the procedure a representative of Human Resources will attend.
3.3 Time Scales
3.3.1 It is important that the appropriate authorities give a high degree of priority and urgency to the procedures outlined in this Regulation.
1. INTRODUCTION
Disciplinary action, including dismissal may be taken by British Airways against any
employee for a variety of offences. Every offence will be considered in the light of
its own circumstances and disciplinary action decided upon according to the merits of the case.
2. BRITISH AIRWAYS POLICY
It is British Airways policy to:
2.1 Provide fair, equitable and reasonable treatment.
2.2 Give employees adequate rights and means of representation in all disciplinary matters.
2.3 Provide employees with a right of appeal.
3. DISCIPLINARY PROCEDURE
3.1 During all stages of the procedure the employee may be accompanied by a person who fits into one of the following categories:
(i) an official of a trade union who is employed by the trade union;
(ii) an official of a trade union who is certified in writing by their union as
having experience of, or having received training in, acting as a worker’s
companion at disciplinary hearings; or
(iii) another person who works at British Airways.
This will usually include the employee’s local trade union representatives and their
work colleagues.
3.2 A representative from the Human Resources function will support, advise and/or attend during the investigation and hearing stages of the procedure as appropriate. At all the Appeal stages of the procedure a representative of Human Resources will attend.
3.3 Time Scales
3.3.1 It is important that the appropriate authorities give a high degree of priority and urgency to the procedures outlined in this Regulation.
3.7 Appeals
3.7.1 Employees shall have the right to appeal against the original disciplinary action taken against them and against the decision of the first stage appeal authority. Appeals must be submitted in writing within 7 days after the decision has been notified in writing to the individual, stating the reason for the appeal.
3.7.2 The appeal authority shall have the power to confirm, increase, decrease, rescind or otherwise vary a penalty and recompense the employee for any loss of basic and/or shift pay.
3.7.3 The notification of the appeal hearing will specify those who will be present on both sides.
3.7.1 Employees shall have the right to appeal against the original disciplinary action taken against them and against the decision of the first stage appeal authority. Appeals must be submitted in writing within 7 days after the decision has been notified in writing to the individual, stating the reason for the appeal.
3.7.2 The appeal authority shall have the power to confirm, increase, decrease, rescind or otherwise vary a penalty and recompense the employee for any loss of basic and/or shift pay.
3.7.3 The notification of the appeal hearing will specify those who will be present on both sides.
8. INDUSTRIAL TRIBUNAL
Nothing in this procedure inhibits or restricts the right of individuals from seeking
redress before an Industrial Tribunal as provided for in current legislation.
Nothing in this procedure inhibits or restricts the right of individuals from seeking
redress before an Industrial Tribunal as provided for in current legislation.
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I don't know what goes on between the company and the union behind closed doors. The company says one thing and the union says something completely different. Who do you believe?
If you were in court and you were on the jury you would look to the evidence and take into any account lies which can be proven beyond doubt when looking at their credibility.
The union has clearly lied in its statements (grounded aircraft and stats in general !). Not once but multiple times. One now cannot and should not believe anything they say.
Not sure I know of anything WW has said that is proven to be wrong ?
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BA chairman obviously feels that strike nears an end
as he has found enough time to become the new chairman of Liverpool FC. Suggests that he is content with the way BA are going on the BASSA, Iberia and AA fronts and content with WW.
Liverpool to appoint new chairman to lift hopes of investment | Premier League - Times Online
Liverpool to appoint new chairman to lift hopes of investment | Premier League - Times Online
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ww has lied to his customers about how much the cabin crew earn. Also i do wonder why so many flight crew want to discuss and worry so much about a situation that has no impact on them what so ever. If you yourselves decide to take industrial action over open skies, would one of you care to comment on whether you would be happy with Walsh replacing all of you with volunteers. Just a very basic question requring a very basic answer
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ww has lied to his customers about how much the cabin crew earn. Also i do wonder why so many flight crew want to discuss and worry so much about a situation that has no impact on them what so ever. If you yourselves decide to take industrial action over open skies, would one of you care to comment on whether you would be happy with Walsh replacing all of you with volunteers. Just a very basic question requring a very basic answer
I don't wish to speak for flight crew at another airline but I imagine that they have an interest because the situation does have an impact on them. If they are stood down during IA that has a direct financial impact on them, also they no doubt fear for the financial security of their employer, as this is vital to their continued employment.
Also, and with all due respect for a job that I loved doing and remember the challenges involved with, replacing Flight Crew with volunteers is not the viable option it is with Cabin Crew so maybe a moot point really.
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Walsh hasn't lied about the cabin crew earnings, the figures are widely available and BA's figures tally with those available from the CAA. Just because you may not earn as much the stated average does not mean others do not. Mathematically others must exceed that average, and I know from first hand knowledge that £56K isn't too wide of the mark for a full time long haul CSD.
The question of volunteers replacing pilots is irrelevant. I doubt we'd like it, but then it couldn't be done. Nor would we base an entire campaign on the fact that we were irreplaceable and 'the only reason people fly BA' (as BASSA claimed) when it was painfully obvious that not only could we be replaced by people with 20 or fewer days training but people were quite happy to fly BA without us on board.
The question of volunteers replacing pilots is irrelevant. I doubt we'd like it, but then it couldn't be done. Nor would we base an entire campaign on the fact that we were irreplaceable and 'the only reason people fly BA' (as BASSA claimed) when it was painfully obvious that not only could we be replaced by people with 20 or fewer days training but people were quite happy to fly BA without us on board.
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Cabin Crew costs
windows69 wrote:
Willie Walsh did not invent the figures, they came from the CAA:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airline...rseas_2009.pdf
They show that the cost of BA cabin crew is easily the highest of any UK airline.
ww has lied to his customers about how much the cabin crew earn.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airline...rseas_2009.pdf
They show that the cost of BA cabin crew is easily the highest of any UK airline.
the lunatic fringe
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Also i do wonder why so many flight crew want to discuss and worry so much about a situation that has no impact on them what so ever
If you yourselves decide to take industrial action over open skies, would one of you care to comment on whether you would be happy with Walsh replacing all of you with volunteers. Just a very basic question requiring a very basic answer
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Are we really going to get back onto the conversation of cabin crew pay and whether the papers have had it wrong. From all of the previous conversations on this subject, it is clear that most people do not even know what their own salaries are. They quote take home pay, or they quote P60 pay. Neither of these are anything like what crew earn due to the implications of pay being made up of taxable and non-taxable elements. The fact is that the figures quoted are average salaries/costs, and even if you are actually earning half of that, it does not mean that the average is not as quoted.
On the subject of volunteers. The first thing to remember is that pilot volunteers are in the minority. I found it entertaining when a pissed American pilot came up to me in a bare other day and rudely declared that I should be ashamed for volunteering and breaking the crews, strike. There was no appology for the outburst even when I told him that I had not volunteered. I then asked him if he knew any of the facts, which of course he proudly admitted he did not, but that he did not need to. He actually told me he would rather lose his job than break someone elses strike, even if the strike was totally unjustified. At this point I realised that it was actually more the case that he would rather get his leg over one of our observing crew, than think logically about what he was saying.
The facts are that the pilot volunteers simply gave BA a buffer so they could afford to plan on optimistic numbers of crew turning up for work, rather than pissimistic numbers. As it turned out, the optimistic numbers were the correct ones to use because the majority of cabin crew believe this strike is not worth losing any money/staff travel over, and BA hardly used any volunteer pilots.
The priority of strikers is always to cause as much disruption as possible. You need all your workers behind you to be effective. Had this truly been the case, volunteers would have been totally ineffective. BASSA convinced their numbers to vote for a strike, but most of you had no intention to strike. Willy knew this, and so did most of the rest of the airline.
Your strike has failed due to BASSA's inability to guage the true support for a strike, and called it when they simply did not have the support. This is the only reason for the failure. Blame the pilots, blame anyone you like, but it is your union leaders who are your true enemies here because you have been fatally wounded by this error of judgement.
I wish you all good luck for the future, but I fear for you all, as I have right from right back when BASSA first refused to negotiate sensibly.
On the subject of volunteers. The first thing to remember is that pilot volunteers are in the minority. I found it entertaining when a pissed American pilot came up to me in a bare other day and rudely declared that I should be ashamed for volunteering and breaking the crews, strike. There was no appology for the outburst even when I told him that I had not volunteered. I then asked him if he knew any of the facts, which of course he proudly admitted he did not, but that he did not need to. He actually told me he would rather lose his job than break someone elses strike, even if the strike was totally unjustified. At this point I realised that it was actually more the case that he would rather get his leg over one of our observing crew, than think logically about what he was saying.
The facts are that the pilot volunteers simply gave BA a buffer so they could afford to plan on optimistic numbers of crew turning up for work, rather than pissimistic numbers. As it turned out, the optimistic numbers were the correct ones to use because the majority of cabin crew believe this strike is not worth losing any money/staff travel over, and BA hardly used any volunteer pilots.
The priority of strikers is always to cause as much disruption as possible. You need all your workers behind you to be effective. Had this truly been the case, volunteers would have been totally ineffective. BASSA convinced their numbers to vote for a strike, but most of you had no intention to strike. Willy knew this, and so did most of the rest of the airline.
Your strike has failed due to BASSA's inability to guage the true support for a strike, and called it when they simply did not have the support. This is the only reason for the failure. Blame the pilots, blame anyone you like, but it is your union leaders who are your true enemies here because you have been fatally wounded by this error of judgement.
I wish you all good luck for the future, but I fear for you all, as I have right from right back when BASSA first refused to negotiate sensibly.
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Hi Windows69
basic pay for csd's starts at 44,000 per annum
they claim that the Monthly Travel Payment offer of 9,000 pa is well below what they earn as an average
Then can expect to earn another 8-10k pa on top of that.
So, in other words, csd's, earn well over 60,000 per annum.
Old contract pursers - full time - will be earning about 45,000 a year.
FACT.
Cabin managers at LGW earn about half that salary.
If the MTP plus allowances equals at least 15, 000 per annum
Then add your basic. What does that come to?
What are your thoughts??
basic pay for csd's starts at 44,000 per annum
they claim that the Monthly Travel Payment offer of 9,000 pa is well below what they earn as an average
Then can expect to earn another 8-10k pa on top of that.
So, in other words, csd's, earn well over 60,000 per annum.
Old contract pursers - full time - will be earning about 45,000 a year.
FACT.
Cabin managers at LGW earn about half that salary.
If the MTP plus allowances equals at least 15, 000 per annum
Then add your basic. What does that come to?
What are your thoughts??
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No sorry i entirely disagree. The pilots who stepped in and did our jobs just undermined what we were doing. Having flown for over 20 years iwas not going to accept a deal where i would end up on £11,000 pounds a tear and £2.45an hour. We have illegally had more money than necessary taken from our pay packets and the company have admitted this in some cases my putting money back into some proples accounts. The truth will out as we have various legal cases on the go as we speak . The question of staff travel is also being dealtwith as if tou take the time to read the ACAS site it is deemed as illegal.Watch this space.Upgrades will be a thing of the past now as those on strike fear risking a fraud charge and gross misconduct for doing it.Being captain on the day does not make them exempt and using the excuse of weight load/ trim restrictions wont wash when the only people moved up front are their relatives /friends etc. We will get it back , but many of the posts on here almost believe we shouldnt. There seems to be alot of very bitter posts here and also alot of infiltrating our private forums. This is actually un acceptable, as without the authors express permission it is not allowed.As with regards to our pay ,i am at the top of my pay scale and work on ww LHR. I have my payslip in front of me and as main crew earn £21, 000 pounds basic on a 75% contract, with allowances £28,000 pounds. Iberia cabin crew make £46,000 per annum therefore NOT making us the highly paid CC in Europe. pilots stepping in and undermining our industrial actions has left a very bitter taste in our mouths as has the fact you were being paid £166 p/h. That was not backing BA it was backstabbing us . When it comes to any future action pilots have to take you will have very very few that support you. All the niceties we choose to do them wont happen anymore having seen some of the vitriole written here. If pilots are next and their pay is slashed in half i would like some input into what they think they might feel about it . Many pilots from the outside woild be lining up to take their placec, any thoughts???????
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ww has lied to his customers about how much the cabin crew earn
i do wonder why so many flight crew want to discuss and worry so much about a situation that has no impact on them what so ever.
CRM issues
Threats to poison pilots
The possibility of BA going bust
The damage to the brand reputation
Friends and family as crew
Direct financial impact of IA
Abuse and lies directed at pilots from Bassa
BA pilots want to support the majority of crew - those wanting to work.
I want to see that crew understand the facts and truth , not Bassa lies.
If you yourselves decide to take industrial action over open skies, would one of you care to comment on whether you would be happy with Walsh replacing all of you with volunteers
Although we did not prevent BA from operating on mainland Europe they cannot operate from London (except for certain situations).
Also note that Balpa offered to crew Openskies with BA pilots but on Openskies terms and conditions.
The point of principle was sound.
BA pilots are paid at the top of UK pay rates (just), but work the hardest too.
If I was considering striking , but EVERYONE else was against me I might reconsider my position.
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There's a very simple reason why flight crew and ground based staff have volunteered in their thousands to back BA on the ground and in the air, might be something to do with the fact that everybody outside the unite/bassa propoganda machine can see that the IA is wholly unjustified and see nothing but lies, lies and more lies 
People would be a lot more sympathetic if it was felt the cabin crew community had a valid case for IA. As non-crew see both sides of the debate they can make an informed decision, unfortunately some cabin crew only want to listen to the BS from their union
In addition, the union have been left looking very silly by trying to hold the company to ransom, only to find BA can still run a substantial operation with cabin crew that can relatively easily be replaced in a short space of time.
So, not only unjustified, but now rather pointless
Some of the crowd are on the pitch, they think it's all over ...........
People would be a lot more sympathetic if it was felt the cabin crew community had a valid case for IA. As non-crew see both sides of the debate they can make an informed decision, unfortunately some cabin crew only want to listen to the BS from their union
In addition, the union have been left looking very silly by trying to hold the company to ransom, only to find BA can still run a substantial operation with cabin crew that can relatively easily be replaced in a short space of time.
So, not only unjustified, but now rather pointless
Some of the crowd are on the pitch, they think it's all over ...........
Watch this space.Upgrades will be a thing of the past now as those on strike fear risking a fraud charge and gross misconduct for doing it.
Have you any idea how annoying it is to get bumped by a 3yr service CC member 'because they have an unwritten agreement' when you have 25yrs in, a firm ticket ID 100 and are trying to get a 26hr flight from the other side of the world? With your family in tow?
And as for this...
I have my payslip in front of me and as main crew earn £21, 000 pounds basic on a 75% contract, with allowances £28,000 pounds.
I'll give you a clue. ALMOST EVERYBODY ELSE!!!!
And you wonder why you have absolutely zip support from the rest of your "colleagues" in the company?
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No as i stated BA have lied continually pls re read what i have said regarding my pay. Some of you seem to have a personal vendetta against cabin crew and at no time would any of us poison flight crew , please substansiate such claims as rumours are particularly un helpful